Re: Small guys as Main Eventers.

Vanilla midgets can't draw.

 

Re: Small guys as Main Eventers.

I think this "Small guys don't draw," thing is a bit of a farce. Looking back in the day, neither Michaels nor Hart were huge guys. On the other side, Sting in the WCW days didn't seem to stand any taller than Punk even though he was billed as larger.

Sure, bring out the roided out circus freaks to draw attention, but the paragons of performance have always been smaller and faster and more nimble than grotesque. And just personally, I'd rather watch 20 minutes of Benoit/Guerrero/Malenko, 60 minutes of prime HBK/Hart, or even Punk and Daniel Bryan than a fingerpoke of doom between Hogan and Nash or a shambling Khali or snorting Ryback or (as I used to call him back in the day) Goldbore.

 

Re: Small guys as Main Eventers.

I think this "Small guys don't draw," thing is a bit of a farce. Looking back in the day, neither Michaels nor Hart were huge guys. On the other side, Sting in the WCW days didn't seem to stand any taller than Punk even though he was billed as larger.

Sure, bring out the roided out circus freaks to draw attention, but the paragons of performance have always been smaller and faster and more nimble than grotesque. And just personally, I'd rather watch 20 minutes of Benoit/Guerrero/Malenko, 60 minutes of prime HBK/Hart, or even Punk and Daniel Bryan than a fingerpoke of doom between Hogan and Nash or a shambling Khali or snorting Ryback or (as I used to call him back in the day) Goldbore.

Michaels is 6'2 and Sting was a roided out body builder.

 

Re: Small guys as Main Eventers.

I don't know if small guys can make it big as face of the company, but if they have the talent of the Benoit's, Guerrero's and Jericho's, they fully deserve to alter between main eventing and being upper-midcarder. The reason Benoit and Guerrero didn't become big draws is because they were not really given a chance. They both had the title for about 4, 5 months then never won it again, Benoit specially never even challenged for the title again after the Elimination Chamber in 2005. Oh, and Benoit was never face of the company material. He was not much of a talker which you need to be to represent a company for extended periods. He did well as champion despite the spotlight still being on HHH but WWE did use him well in a way except he should have gotten more main event opportunities after his title reign.

Then there's a guy like Rey Mysterio, who with all due respect is just not cut for being a "World Heavyweight Champion".

 

Re: Small guys as Main Eventers.

Characters and booking are way more important, this also includes in-ring booking, or maybe moreso ring-psychology. If you ask a random guy from the streets if he would rather cheer a weak pansy that somehow wins by luck or an agressive freak of nature that steamrolls through his enemies like a badass you wouldn't have many telling you that they prefer the small guy. Now, in WWE, instead of booking their wrestlers like, let's say AJ or A Double aka two smaller guys who can still brawl with the big ones, and land serious hits with their technical or highflying moves and thus win believeably in a dominant fashion. Instead, they book most smaller guys as weaker, less resilient guys whose moves also deal less damage with their moves than their bigger counterparts, while the speed and technique advandtage doesn't get presented that much better to even it out, thus resulting in most smaller guys winning by luckily hitting their finishers, or winning by cheating.

I assure you that a 5'8" guy booked like a beast or badass will get enough attention from the general public, maybe even more than their bigger counterparts in the beginning due to the novelty effect of having a small badass. Of course, as I mentioned, the ring psychology and ring style has to fit to make it work, but storytelling in general is very superficial and restricted nowadays for the most part.

 

Re: Small guys as Main Eventers.

I don't care if a stripper has B cups or Double D tits, entertain me...just entertain me and you'll draw my money.

 

Re: Small guys as Main Eventers.

I don't care if a stripper has B cups or Double D tits, entertain me...just entertain me and you'll draw my money.

well said, don't get peoples obsession with drawing. If it entertains you who cares what other people think

 

Re: Small guys as Main Eventers.

i have no problem with one or two small main eventers, just don't have your company dominated by them.

Variety and all that.

 

It's so stupid when people say "Bret and Shawn were the first small guys to hold the title". They're jumping on the hidden agenda to ignore Randy Savage.

 

I hate the arguement that no one would buy a smaller guy beating a big roid-up meat head. I guess I am wierd in that I believe that a small guy can and will beat a big guy if he has enough skill to. I grew up watching kung fu movies and I know that Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Donny Yen, or Sonny Chiba could wipe the floor with some body builder that does nothing but lift weights.

Hell, one of the biggest sports movie franchises is about a little dude fighting the odds with a lot of heart and determination. A little guy named Rocky Balboa (height, 5' 9") who was always smaller than the guys he was fighing, but people bought into it and cheered for him.

And small guys are always barred from being the top dogs then there is aways the problem that the majority of big guys are very untalented. I'd much rather WWE invest in talented experienced workers like Punk and Bryan rather than talentless meat-heads like Zeke or Mason Ryan. Skill and talent should trump looks any day.

 

I'm alright either way. I don't favour a particular wrestling style so much as a strong character. For me, it's 75% about the persona and ability to pull it off - size doesn't necessarily come into it.

 

Kevin Nash sucks .

 

While a big guy might grab your attention, a guy with a good/great character will keep your attention. No matter how big he is. Benoit and Guerrero never really got the chance to prove if they could draw or not. Like C2D said, Benoit never even received another world title match after NYR 2005. It's not like either of them were horrible champions either. They had the crowd's support and put on great matches. WWE just decided to not properly build on their already successful title runs. Benoit was never gonna be the top guy in the company because he just didn't have the personality for it. Could he have been one of the top main event faces? Yes. Benoit remained over as a face from 2001-2007. When he went against main event heels like Austin, Angle, Lesnar, Triple H, and JBL, he had pretty good support from the fans. He should have had another run with the world heavyweight title or at least remained in the main event. Eddie could have been the top face. He had a very likable personality and he knew how to capture people's hearts. But, he died only a year after finally reaching the main event.

When it comes to Mysterio, he is just not believable what so ever as a full blown main eventer. Benoit & Guerreo may have been under 6 feet but they were of average male height. Mysterio was of below average height and weight for some men his age. Him being a successful mid carder who got a few title shots was what he should have been. Not world heavyweight champion. Besides, a lot of people talk about Benoit's mic skills but in my opinion he was better than Mysterio and wasn't all that bad. And even though Benoit didn't really have much of a gimmick he was nicely over for a guy who was pretty much just a wrestler. Mysterio really had no reason to win the World Heavyweight Championship on the occasions that he did. Him being over and selling a decent amount of merchandise were the only reasons why he won it and he never once was booked to have a good reign.

As for small guys drawing, I really don't think that size really matters. Character is what really matters and to a certain extent booking. Characters are larger than life not guys who are 6'8" 290 lbs. Did anyone really care about Cena before he became the rapper? He had a great size and wore colorful trunks and boots every night. Did anyone care about Rocky Maivia to a level where he could become the face of the company(I'm sure that's what Vince imagined for Rock when he signed him). Nope. But, when they got characters to go along with their frame, they became top stars and faces of the company. The lone exception to needing superb booking to become a top face was The Rock. He just had too much charisma & would be over regardless of card placement or regardless of win/loss record. Booking is very important because you must make the crowd believe in that character. Sure you can look like a the toughest s.o.b. in the WWF and say that you are but if you are constantly getting your ass kicked, no one will believe it. I can understand where you are coming from op, but for someone to become a draw they must have a good/great character that connects with the crowd and good booking. That's it. Size does not play that big of a factor in it. If that were the case, we wouldn't have the abundance of characters and gimmicks that we have had.

 

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Do you think CM Punk and Daniel Bryan are short? Because I would say that being 6'1 is tall and 5'10 is average.

 

They are short...average at most. I have a feeling the WWE plays a lot with heights. I'm 6'2 and I've met both...they look like midgets compared to me and I'm slim. And maybe it's not about height at all it's about looks in general. In Bryan's case it's totally his height...he is to small, besides that, he is perfect. Speaking about Punk he looks literally like a punk. I also met Taker and HHH the guys are immense they really intimidate. You know they are something special at first sight and I confess I hate HHH.

I just want to clear up that I'm talking about the new face of the WWE. There's no doubt Punk and Bryan are great. In fact they are some of my favorites right now, but you need much more to be the next icon.

 

Nobody can't argue small guys can entertain. In fact they are sometimes more entertaining than the big guys. I am talking about a future icon...the next Hogan, Rock or Cena. I don't think a small guy like CM Punk or Daniel Bryan could fill that shoes. That's why I understand what the WWE is trying to do with Sheamus and Ryback. I must say I hate Sheamus and I'm not sure if Ryback has what it takes, but that's what they have right now. Tough dilemma for Vince and company.

 

So, you are entertained by D-Bry and Punk's performances, and don't care for either of the big men you used in your example. But you still think they'd be better faces of the company than the guys who can really go and perform?

I don't understand.

 

People seem to be conflating "main eventer" and "face of the company". A small guy with the character, charisma, and wrestling ability (only big guys can get away with sucking in the ring) necessary can appropriately be given top billing.

Its having a smaller guy as champion or face of the company is where the size issue really comes into play. Its easy to buy a smaller guy as being just plain better than the majority of big guys. Its another thing entirely to present a smaller than average wrestler as THE best wrestler in the promotion.

 

Exactly what I'm trying to say. English is not my first language and sometimes I have a little trouble to explain myself. Thanks.

 

What does Bryan beeing a manlet have to do with his skills? Guess nobody read my post lol. It's all about believeability, and as long as WWE books the smaller guys right (especially in the storytelling/psychology department, not just match results) and make them out as a big deal I don't think they will fail, assuming they have everything else in place.

 

I got what you said. I liked your post. For example building Daniel Bryan like being a Chuck Norris, right? I mean Norris doesn't look impresive in any ways yet we all look at him like an invincible guy. I think it could be done, but they should have to build an immense campaign to support it and he would have to beat clean and square guys like the Rock and Lesnar and Cena to gain this kind of credibility. It would awesome if the WWE could build Bryan like that because he is great in every sense.

 

In my opinion smaller guys are healthier and suffer less health problems post retirement due to carrying around less weight and having better stamina...I think leaner physiques should be encouraged. It looks better and its better for their health. Carrying around too much muscle can be just as bad as carrying around too much fat, its bad for the heart. For god sakes, Ryback looks uncomfortably big, like someone blows him up with a tyre pump before each match...

 

Smaller guys can be main eventers and champions but they can't be the 'face of the company' because they simply don't fit the bill. Guys in that position have to strike a chord with the masses, the casual fans and history has proven that it's the big, ripped, muscular, charismatic and aesthetically pleasing guys who are accepted in that role, not the smaller types. Hogan, Rock, Austin > HBK, Hart, Eddie.

 

If Floyd Mayweather can draw, then anybody can draw in pro-wrestling given the right push no matter how big/small.

 

Boxing/MMA comparisons don't work when it comes to a 'fake' TV show. With boxers and MMA fighters everybody knows they are fighting in a legitimate competitive event. There is no suspension of disbelief because it's real. In WWE, that isn't the case and they aren't the same thing. The vast majority of casual fans are tuning in to see the guys they won't normally see on the street everyday. That's why Daniel Bryan could never do or be to them what John Cena is to them. It doesn't work that way. I hate to drag this up but just look at the problems Punk is having and he isn't even that small. Getting people to buy into you as a main event star is one thing. Getting them to buy into you as THE main even star is something different entirely. You need to have the physical presence to pull it off which is once again why guys like Cena play the leading man role and guys like Bryan play as a member of the supporting cast.

 

HBK says hi. Didn't HBK keep the WWF within touching distance of WCW during the days where the gulf in the quality of the shows was at it's largest?

As someone else said, if it entertains me it gets my money. Each one to their own though. If you're a fan and you care about ratings...well you should have a real good think to yourself. I don't see people watching Dexter or Breaking Bad and having ratings as their main talking point after, but maybe that's just what WWE has become, so poor people only find ratings to have a good debate on.

 

The only size that matters for main eventing is the size of the reaction you get. That's why Del Rio, one of the most ostensibly perfect main eventers in the WWE, tends to kinda stink when he's main eventing, but Bryan could absolutely slot back in at any point. As for being the face of the company, just take that main event field, and pick the guy you trust, who's working the hardest. Punk didn't fail as face of the company, he was never even positioned as it. He's just sort of occupying whatever space WWE can't use Cena to fill. Orton probably suffered from that too, come to think of it.

 

As for a smaller guy who could have made it as face of the company, I feel Jericho would have been up for it. One of the few smaller guys at the time who had the complete package.

I view the Benoit/Guerrero pushes similar to the HBK/Bret pushes. Vince was coming off of losing his 2 biggest stars and had to do something to keep the wheels turning and took a chance. It both cases, it benefited the careers of those involved, but not so much WWE. Also, Bret was given 4-5 years as the top main eventer in the company, with HBK close by. Benoit & Guerrero would bounce around between main event to mid card because, IMO, it was never Vince's intention to make either man a legit main eventer, considering WWE had been grooming Cena & Orton to become stars, 2 guys who mirrored the recipe of success that Vince hit big with nearly 20 years prior.

Also, I can't help but think that if Brock never left, possibly Eddie, Chris or both would have never got that main event opportunity, as Brock staying would have really shook things up.

 

The comparison to boxing isn't very useful. Mayweather only fights one night a year. Pacquiao fights two nights a year. And it's a real sport.

Whoever is the face of WWE has to star 52x a year in a weekly TV show and 13x a year in PPVs. And that's not counting all the house shows.

Size is a huge part of what pro wrestling is about. You have to look the part -- just like with any TV show. Casual fans just aren't that interested in seeing slim, fit guys wrestle -- except as the exception. You can have an occasional Jeff Hardy type build. An occasional Daniel Bryan (who has added a lot of muscle mass since he's joined WWE and is no longer slim.)

And most of the smaller guys who've succeeded -- HBK, Guerrero, etc -- were super-jacked. HBK was huge in his earlier years. Compare their physique to typical UFC fight physiques.

Anderson Silva is 6'2 and fights at 185. GSP is 5'10 170. (These are fighting weights) Carlos Condit is 6'2 170. Benson Henderson is 5'9, 155.

Compared to UFC fighters, even the smaller WWE guys carry around huge amounts of upper body mass.

You could have a show filled with super-fit, 6'0 170 lb legit UFC guys jumping around the ring and people just wouldn't watch. They would just look too small.

This doesn't mean there isn't a place for smaller guys in WWE -- even at the main event level -- just that the norm will always be the bigger guys. Especially for whoever is the face of the company (Hogan, Austin, Rock, Triple H, Cena, etc).

 

I don't think it should matter but ultimately big strong guys get over, especially with young boys who really look up to that kind of thing

 

That's not a great thing to promote to kid (since i guess WWE is a kids company now). Kids can succeed only if they are born with exceptional genes that would allow them to be 6'4" and build 260lbs of muscle.

WWE could try to push a small guy as a every-man type dude. Daniel Bryan is the perfect example. He is average in height/build Spent 10 years working his ass off to make his dreams come true. Incurred many injuries but pushed on when many people would have quit. And finally makes it to the top. Thats a great success story and people love stories of the underdog that comes through with willpower and determination.

 

I hate those stupid ''small guys'', it looks so gay when they beat a guy who's twice their size. Main eventers should look like WRESTLERS. Intimidating, not boring midgets. Eat vegetables and lift some weights. You have to actually do more than be spot monkies. You have to do promos that are actually good, you have to put asses in seats, at least more than 50 chairs, which is what you all are used to. And you have to draw a crowd, at least more than 100 people, which are the only people who want to watch indy wrestling. WWE needs to put titles on big men like Ryback

 

I hate those stupid ''small guys'', it looks so gay when they beat a guy who's twice their size. Main eventers should look like WRESTLERS. Intimidating, not boring midgets. Eat vegetables and lift some weights. You have to actually do more than be spot monkies. You have to do promos that are actually good, you have to put asses in seats, at least more than 50 chairs, which is what you all are used to. And you have to draw a crowd, at least more than 100 people, which are the only people who want to watch indy wrestling. WWE needs to put titles on big men like Ryback

And Zeke and Mason Ryan and Khali and any other talentless body builder that wants to be on TV.

Not saying Ryback suck as much as them, but just being big shouldn't qualify someone to be a top guy. If there is a big guy that has the skill and endurance to go in the ring, I am fine with it. I was okay with it when Brock was going to be the no.1 guy (even though I thought he was best as a heel)

People would pay to see a average-height guy if WWE booked them well. To be an action star doesn't require a actor to be 6'6". Christian Bale isn't nearly as big as the comics portray Batman as, but the Dark Knight trilogy has made a crapload of money. Even in the age of excess known as the 80's (especially in action movies) Stallone (5'9") was just as popular as Arnie (6'2").