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Hell, the name Houdini is still probabky the most well-known name in the art of illusion, doesn’t mean that Copperfield didn’t grow the business, but more exposure and camera angles and less word of mouth killed the belief in “magic”.

Hulk Hogan wouldn’t sell for his opponnent, gave you the same fucking match lacking any differing psychology based on who his opponent was, and still is the most recognizable name in the industry.

@The Wood is one of the best posters on here offers logical discussion because he isnt an AEW fanboy he gets shit on constantly.

this forum is a fucking circle jerk of AEW im over it
I enjoy his posts and thoughts. He does come from a logical place, but he comes off as angry old man yelling at the clouds. Adapt and learn to enjoy what is out there or move on.

It’s his right to explain the differences, but it is everyone else’s right to say “Hey, stfu and let me enjoy this” if they so choose. Self-awareness and reading the room goes a long way.

And @The Wood , man, I’m too old and have way too many more important things to say this stuff out of anger toward you or anything else. I think you genuinely want to enjoy the product, just can’t due to how you think wrestling should be.

Is there any wrestling you enjoy, outside of New Japan? I haven’t kept track fully, but that seems to be the only one, which they have done a wonderful job of protecting kayfabe.
 

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@The Wood is one of the best posters on here offers logical discussion because he isnt an AEW fanboy he gets shit on constantly.
He's beyond a joke who uses false narrative/equivalence, straw man response and obfuscation to conceal his clear hatred of AEW (something that he has admitted). If there were actual mods in this section he'd be gone, his trolling is that obvious!

this forum is a fucking circle jerk of AEW im over it
See ya!!
 

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His views are stuck in the 80's. Every idea he suggests happened already in Memphis 35 years ago.
Why though? It’s one thing to just say this, but why are his ideas “stuck?” Why won’t they work? You’re just saying a thing and leading with it being true.

Sounds like you are getting worked into a shoot.
Lol, what would be the point of this though? This is like when Kenny made that terrible video and buried himself and everyone was like “he’s working.” It turned out he wasn’t (nothing came or it on-air) and it wasn’t productive. If anything, they work themselves.

Cornette’s entire philosophical view is based on protecting kayfabe. It would be akin to Copperfield screaming and yelling at anyone and everyone that he does REAL magic, denouncing every magician who says the words “sleight of hand”, and crying about every America’s Got Talent magician who wins, claiming they’re shit for the business. They get viewers, but they aren’t billionaires like Copperfield. They should just stop performing “their way”, huh?

It’s not real, and no one has believed it to be real for decades. Kayfabe is dead, and with it, a lot of the “magic” of wrestling is dead with it. That’s why Cornette’s ideas won’t work in this day and age. Vince killed kayfabe knowing he had a monopoly on the biggest circus act in the game. Expose it as “entertainment”, and no one will dare waste their time on the lesser acts, no matter how “real” it may look.

I’d love to go back to when kayfabe was alive and well. Believing Hall and Nash just showed up to invade WCW, that Austin was legit getting one over on his boss week-in and weekend-out til he was forced to give him a chance at the title, that Mick Foley was genuinely crazy, etc.

It’s dead. There’s a reason the selling has died and most of it is spot-monkey, flip fests. You can’t unscramble the egg no matter how loud or often you scream it.
I’ll give you credit. At least you’re trying.

Cornette actually says these things and uses his own magic analogy. You don’t show people how the trick is done then expect them to watch the trick. Kayfabe being dead is what has largely put wrestling on its ass. Still doesn’t mean you don’t try, or that there’s a point to this without kayfabe.

By the way, people are still easy to work. There are people who get worked by boxing and MMA. There are people who believe politicians. People believe in woo a simple Google search dispels. Some people want to be worked.

And the myth that people “believed” wrestling is another place this falls down. A lot of people knew. This comes from a modern perspective that fans today are “smarter” or better than fans back in the day. It’s recency bias. Fans appreciate the effort, suspended their disbelief. They believed in wrestling, even if they didn’t quite believe it.

And I’m yet to see a single shred of evidence that throwing kayfabe out is in any way beneficial.

I love this response! You are actually getting worked by modern indy wrestlers and their new promotions and gimmicks, whilst actually agreeing with Jim Cornette/WWE/AE crowd that modern indy wrestlers are scum because they have abandoned or perverted true wrestling. The Buck’s, Joey Ryan etc are making you old school types into dumb marks and you don’t know it! GENIUS!
So, um, genius—care to tell us what the point would be behind allegedly working me? It’s not going to get them any money, which is the whole point of a work. Just to lie? That just makes them trashy people. Shouldn’t they try working on their actual show?

Or, hold on, is that complete and utter bullshit you’ve pulled out of your ass because you’re insecure about your favorites?

Also, what is the Jim Cornette/WWE/AE crowd? That’s like, three VERY different audiences. It’s most wresting fans. Did you just admit that your boys have worked themselves into being disliked by most wrestling fans? Why would ANYONE do that?

Hell, the name Houdini is still probabky the most well-known name in the art of illusion, doesn’t mean that Copperfield didn’t grow the business, but more exposure and camera angles and less word of mouth killed the belief in “magic”.

Hulk Hogan couldn’t sell shit, gave you the same fucking match lacking any differing psychology based on who his opponent was, and still is the most recognizable name in the industry.
Yeah, but these guys have not grown the business. WWE have grown their own business, but it ain’t “evolving” if you’re going backwards.

And I’m sorry, but did you just say that Hogan couldn’t sell shit? Um, that’s a pretty ridiculous claim. Hogan might not have had the “movez,” but he was an excellent worker.
 

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Why though? It’s one thing to just say this, but why are his ideas “stuck?” Why won’t they work? You’re just saying a thing and leading with it being true.



Lol, what would be the point of this though? This is like when Kenny made that terrible video and buried himself and everyone was like “he’s working.” It turned out he wasn’t (nothing came or it on-air) and it wasn’t productive. If anything, they work themselves.



I’ll give you credit. At least you’re trying.

Cornette actually says these things and uses his own magic analogy. You don’t show people how the trick is done then expect them to watch the trick. Kayfabe being dead is what has largely put wrestling on its ass. Still doesn’t mean you don’t try, or that there’s a point to this without kayfabe.

By the way, people are still easy to work. There are people who get worked by boxing and MMA. There are people who believe politicians. People believe in woo a simple Google search dispels. Some people want to be worked.

And the myth that people “believed” wrestling is another place this falls down. A lot of people knew. This comes from a modern perspective that fans today are “smarter” or better than fans back in the day. It’s recency bias. Fans appreciate the effort, suspended their disbelief. They believed in wrestling, even if they didn’t quite believe it.

And I’m yet to see a single shred of evidence that throwing kayfabe out is in any way beneficial.



So, um, genius—care to tell us what the point would be behind allegedly working me? It’s not going to get them any money, which is the whole point of a work. Just to lie? That just makes them trashy people. Shouldn’t they try working on their actual show?

Or, hold on, is that complete and utter bullshit you’ve pulled out of your ass because you’re insecure about your favorites?

Also, what is the Jim Cornette/WWE/AE crowd? That’s like, three VERY different audiences. It’s most wresting fans. Did you just admit that your boys have worked themselves into being disliked by most wrestling fans? Why would ANYONE do that?



Yeah, but these guys have not grown the business. WWE have grown their own business, but it ain’t “evolving” if you’re going backwards.

And I’m sorry, but did you just say that Hogan couldn’t sell shit? Um, that’s a pretty ridiculous claim. Hogan might not have had the “movez,” but he was an excellent worker.
Hogan could sell, and when he did, it was magical. I changed my wording and edited after I’d already posted, knowing I’d been unfair in my wording of it.

He could. He simply refused to do so on a regular basis.
 

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And @The Wood , man, I’m too old and have way too many more important things to say this stuff out of anger toward you or anything else. I think you genuinely want to enjoy the product, just can’t due to how you think wrestling should be.

Is there any wrestling you enjoy, outside of New Japan? I haven’t kept track fully, but that seems to be the only one, which they have done a wonderful job of protecting kayfabe.
I like some New Japan. Not a big fan of Ospreay and Ibushi unless they are being led. MLW and NWA are really good, but I don’t watch much. I’ve even liked some WWE. It’s been years, but it was all I had for a long time.

NXT has the right philosophy. It’s not the most exciting show every week, but it doesn’t insult my intelligence. Apart from that it’s the classic stuff.

He's beyond a joke who uses false narrative/equivalence, straw man response and obfuscation to conceal his clear hatred of AEW (something that he has admitted). If there were actual mods in this section he'd be gone, his trolling is that obvious!
What false narrative/equivalence do I use? Might it be something like flat-out lying about things someone else has said, like you do at the end there? Where have I ever said I hated AEW?

Why do so many AEW fanboys turn out to be liars?

And, even if I did hate AEW (and I don’t)why does that matter? You can discuss things you hate.

By the way, thanks for the shout, Oracle. Don’t subject yourself to anything you don’t want to, but don’t feel too bad for me, haha. I have a blast discussing this, and there are some excellent posters here.

Hogan could sell, and when he did, it was magical. I changed my wording and edited after I’d already posted, knowing I’d been unfair in my wording of it.

He could. He simply refused to do so on a regular basis.
Ah, sorry, I think I saw it pre-editing. My bad.
 

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Fair enough, @The Wood . I feel the same on Ospreay, even if I have only watched a single match. I only subscribed to New Japan World for Wrestle Kingdom this year and loved it for the “realism”. I’m one of those that still jokingly screams “It’s real to me!!”

Ibushi, I’ve watched a little more of through friends, and I enjoyed what I saw.

So, based on what you just said about Cornette’s magic analogy, which I admit I’ve heard him use a couple of times, then why isn’t MLW or NWA setting the world on fire ratings wise? Why is NXT taking a beating in the ratings on a regular basis that doesn’t involve the main roster drawing its loyal fanbase to the show? Keith Lee certainly “looks like a wrestler”, why aren’t millions flocking to see him?

Again, not trying to be a prick. Just curious to here your thoughts on it, because to me, fans don’t care about how “real” it looks or does not look. They care about the drama, and whether it makes sense, whether it’s rankings based or soap opera BS based.
 

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Cornette's style of wrestling still draws. The NWA is doing between 150,000 - 200,000 (Allegedly more than TNA these days) as an old school web show. Early day ROH was very old school as well and was incredibly popular.

A lot of southern indies do the traditional style as well and draw really well. Saw some clips from someone doing an independent show in an arena in one of the southern states with a pretty strong crowd.
 

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Fair enough, @The Wood . I feel the same on Ospreay, even if I have only watched a single match. I only subscribed to New Japan World for Wrestle Kingdom this year and loved it for the “realism”. I’m one of those that still jokingly screams “It’s real to me!!”

Ibushi, I’ve watched a little more of through friends, and I enjoyed what I saw.

So, based on what you just said about Cornette’s magic analogy, which I admit I’ve heard him use a couple of times, then why isn’t MLW or NWA setting the world on fire ratings wise? Why is NXT taking a beating in the ratings on a regular basis that doesn’t involve the main roster drawing its loyal fanbase to the show? Keith Lee certainly “looks like a wrestler”, why aren’t millions flocking to see him?

Again, not trying to be a prick. Just curious to here your thoughts on it, because to me, fans don’t care about how “real” it looks or does not look. They care about the drama, and whether it makes sense, whether it’s rankings based or soap opera BS based.
Because of perception and damage done to the industry. You can’t be taken seriously when there are guys with hands in their pockets in the same universe.

Also, it’s not like real = draw. Scott Norton could probably beat some dudes up, doesn’t mean he worked. It’s about working. Not every bad-ass can be Brock Lesnar, but when you’ve got a Brock Lesnar credibility is a thing.

And trust me, NXT is going to win that ratings “war,” lol.

It’s engagement more than people thinking it’s real. And it’s credibility more than people thinking it is legit.
 

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And I go back to the AE. It sold like crazy, and I hated the shit. I remember thinking to myself how it was insulting my intelligence, and how all this soap opera BS would only work for so long. It was a cheap ratings grab that was not sustainable. Mae Young having a baby that turns out to be a fucking hand is far more insulting to me than Orange Cassidy putting his hands in his pockets in front of a paused reaction from Pac before he gets leveled with a stiff kick to the face.

But trust me, for the most part, I do understand and sympathize with your plight. Just don’t understand the need to constantly tear down something you don’t watch.
 

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And I go back to the AE. It sold like crazy, and I hated the shit. I remember thinking to myself how it was insulting my intelligence, and how all this soap opera BS would only work for so long. It was a cheap ratings grab that was not sustainable. Mae Young having a baby that turns out to be a fucking hand is far more insulting to me than Orange Cassidy putting his hands in his pockets in front of a paused reaction from Pac before he gets leveled with a stiff kick to the face.

But trust me, for the most part, I do understand and sympathize with your plight. Just don’t understand the need to constantly tear down something you don’t watch.
You’re starting to sound like Cornette with those AE points. And the thing that worked about that time period was the more credible stuff. Austin, Rock, Foley, Vince and JR, especially. You believed in their personas and were engaged by them. The AE didn’t get so hot because people liked Beaver Cleavage.
 

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And again, why can’t an Orange Cassidy put his hands in pockets, take his ass-kicking, and still exist in a world with Jericho, Cody, Moxley, Hager, Omega, Pac, Page, potentially Brian Cage, and any other legit main event scene guys they may acquire? Maybe Omega becomes JUST a mid-card guy that puts everyone over by giving them a great match, and he eats the L to grow the company?

That’s all I’m trying to say. You haven’t explained this, just repeating that Cassidy can’t exist in a universe of legit wrestling, yet Mae Young can have a fucking baby in a world that has Austin and Rock.
 

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I would never have believed that a certain "gang", would end up carrying the flag of this thread because:

- I don't often watch. And don't tell other people how to live their lives.

- People don't need to live life according to your standards and with your values.

- You also try to paint them with a brush of arrogance because they think they're always right.

- 12 posts in before someone is actually on their side. More and more it is becoming clear...

- People on here are abusing people like me and The Dude and Rainmaker all the time.

I love that song, "Who's Crying' Now" by Journey, you know...
 

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I would never have believed that a certain "gang", would end up carrying the flag of this thread because:

- I don't often watch. And don't tell other people how to live their lives.

- People don't need to live life according to your standards and with your values.

- You also try to paint them with a brush of arrogance because they think they're always right.

- 12 posts in before someone is actually on their side. More and more it is becoming clear...

- People on here are abusing people like me and The Dude and Rainmaker all the time.

I love that song, "Who's Crying' Now" by Journey, you know...
I laughed.
 

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And again, why can’t an Orange Cassidy put his hands in pockets, take his ass-kicking, and still exist in a world with Jericho, Cody, Moxley, Hager, Omega, Pac, Page, potentially Brian Cage, and any other legit main event scene guys they may acquire? Maybe Omega becomes JUST a mid-card guy that puts everyone over by giving them a great match, and he eats the L to grow the company?

That’s all I’m trying to say. You haven’t explained this, just repeating that Cassidy can’t exist in a universe of legit wrestling, yet Mae Young can have a fucking baby in a world that has Austin and Rock.
Hang on, I've never defended the hand. I don't know where this idea has come from, lol.

The hand was fucking stupid, and had they not done shit like that, maybe they would have been even hotter than they were or had more stars that could carry on the business?

And when you're hot you can get away with a lot. People will make excuses and their threshold for bullshit is going to be higher. Yeah, it's super-hypocritical, but that's the way it goes. And AEW isn't super-hot. The WWF were getting millions upon millions of viewers and even occasionally beat the NFL. People were going to wade through Val Venis to get to Steve Austin. The oomph just isn't there for Chris Jericho and Orange Cassidy.

Orange Cassidy can't exist in a world with serious acts because he undermines the entire point of what you're presenting. He breaks the fourth wall. He tells the audience "this is fucking bullshit, why would you watch this?" That's literally what him being bored and nonchalantly walking into a fight means. I don't think anyone can disagree with this. His "slacker" gimmick is exactly that thing. You cannot see why this is counterproductive when in a later segment you've got two serious acts trying to sell people on a $50 PPV. That you've just told them is frivolous.

I wonder if people actually get this concept behind Orange Cassidy. He's mocking wrestling, yeah? People get that. He is literally an insult to your intelligence as a wrestling fan. That's actually his purpose.

I would never have believed that a certain "gang", would end up carrying the flag of this thread because:

- I don't often watch. And don't tell other people how to live their lives.

- People don't need to live life according to your standards and with your values.

- You also try to paint them with a brush of arrogance because they think they're always right.

- 12 posts in before someone is actually on their side. More and more it is becoming clear...

- People on here are abusing people like me and The Dude and Rainmaker all the time.

I love that song, "Who's Crying' Now" by Journey, you know...
You are obsessed with me. It's getting creepy and annoying. You are projecting this idea of a gang. Just because people have started to see through the AEW myths it doesn't mean they're a gang. Do you often think people are talking about you behind your back?
 
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I would never have believed that a certain "gang", would end up carrying the flag of this thread because:

- I don't often watch. And don't tell other people how to live their lives.

- People don't need to live life according to your standards and with your values.

- You also try to paint them with a brush of arrogance because they think they're always right.

- 12 posts in before someone is actually on their side. More and more it is becoming clear...

- People on here are abusing people like me and The Dude and Rainmaker all the time.

I love that song, "Who's Crying' Now" by Journey, you know...
Do you actually post anything here that is wrestling related or do you just bitch nonstop about The Wood?
1578945070445.png
 

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Hang on, I've never defended the hand. I don't know where this idea has come from, lol.

The hand was fucking stupid, and had they not done shit like that, maybe they would have been even hotter than they were or had more stars that could carry on the business?

And when you're hot you can get away with a lot. People will make excuses and their threshold for bullshit is going to be higher. Yeah, it's super-hypocritical, but that's the way it goes. And AEW isn't super-hot. The WWF were getting millions upon millions of viewers and even occasionally beat the NFL. People were going to wade through Val Venis to get to Steve Austin. The oomph just isn't there for Chris Jericho and Orange Cassidy.

Orange Cassidy can't exist in a world with serious acts because he undermines the entire point of what you're presenting. He breaks the fourth wall. He tells the audience "this is fucking bullshit, why would you watch this?" That's literally what him being bored and nonchalantly walking into a fight means. I don't think anyone can disagree with this. His "slacker" gimmick is exactly that thing. You cannot see why this is counterproductive when in a later segment you've got two serious acts trying to sell people on a $50 PPV. That you've just told them is frivolous.

I wonder if people actually get this concept behind Orange Cassidy. He's mocking wrestling, yeah? People get that. He is literally an insult to your intelligence as a wrestling fan. That's actually his purpose.



You are obsessed with me. It's getting creepy and annoying. You are projecting this idea of a gang. Just because people have started to see through the AEW myths it doesn't mean they're a gang. Do you often think people are talking about you behind your back?
Fair enough. You admit that the shit was shit but still worked, because Austin and Rock were drawing millions upon millions.

Why can’t some of the guys I mentioned become that, and everyone just struggles through the Cassidy shit? Which I absolutely don’t think he and Marco will be around forever, but for my son’s sake, hopefully Cassidy stays another year or two while he develops his understanding of psychology instead of the funny stuff.
 

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There are a few reasons for that:

1. Rock and Austin were massive stars that were made before things got REALLY bad. Russo got more power in 1999. That Austin and Rock were getting hotter and hotter by this point is a good thing. Not all main eventers can overcome that sort of stuff.

2. You have to be able to make those stars. AEW doesn't have history, nor does it have the viewership. Austin was made a star in from of several million people. Not 900k. There's no way to super-charge someone off that.

3. The competition was hot as well. This created a force behind wrestling. That force is not there.

4. How we consume content was very different then to what it is now. Back then, if you wanted to watch live (and you didn't want those shows spoiled, so a lot of people did), you had to sit down and watch. Now, we can DVR more readily, watch on demand, and have endless content sitting in our pockets. Silly content is going to end up on people's cutting room floors a lot more than priority content in an era where you had to record something with VHS.

5. The culture was very different. The 90's were a weird time. The WWF almost embraced being a comedy promotion because it was an entertainment juggernaut and that was the zeitgeist of television. This was a period where South Park and Beavis and Butthead were en vogue. It was a lot of poo, naughty words and boobies. Being crude and offensive didn't so much challenge sensibilities. You could present a program where Mae Young, this crazy old bitch, plays a sex-pot that is kept around for some reason, because rude old ladies were cool, and she pretends to give birth to a hand. "Haha, they got that old lady to pretend she gave birth to a hand" actually doesn't do as much damage as a guy undermining the philosophy of what you're doing. It's bad, it's not funny, and I'm not justifying it, but you could make the reasonable claim that it was shitty comedy on a usually good wrestling show, not shitty wrestling on a bad comedy show.

If you want, there is a way of accepting that in this zany world of the WWF, Mae Young is paid by this eccentric millionaire to show up, either out of legacy or as a favor to his father or someone, and in the culture of the late 90's, he paid her to humiliate herself. The whole "WWF Attitude" thing was, in its weird way, a kayfabe push. Vince McMahon hiring writers to "come up with something for that crazy old bitch to do and make that lazy no-talent Mark Henry do it" has this meta purpose behind it. You could explain it away kind of like the NWA legend ad spots. Orange Cassidy, however, is actually a guy who goes into what are supposed to be serious fights with his hands in his pockets.

I can buy Colt Cabana as a class clown. I can buy him assing off with an opponent. Or him even agreeing to help a heel with a comedic routine in the ring outside of scheduled competition. I've forgotten that dude's name he did it with. But then it turns violent and that's when you actually sell it. Orange Cassidy is not the same thing. He no-sells the very purpose behind wrestling. If he were a referee that every couple of weeks you got a vignette about his debut coming, and you never actually got the debut, it would still be stupid, and I'd ask why, but it wouldn't be as offensive as it is him actually doing it.
 
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