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Discussion Starter #1
I heard Raven say this in a shoot interview. I think there is a lot of truth in it.

Look at most of the people whose careers exploded. Did the following people reach that top spot in the company because they were Mr. Nice Guys (& Girls) who did everything they could for the fans, or because they carried themselves with so much confidence and arrogance that the fans couldn't help but associate themselves with the strength of their security, independence, superiority, dominance?

Shawn Michaels (his 'Sexy boy' heel gimmick made fans love his 'attitude')
The Rock (before joining NOD and talking like an arrogant prick, people didn't care about him)
Mankind (the freak who enjoyed inflicting pain)
Sunny
Randy Orton (though I'm not sure where they're going with him as a face)
Austin
Chris Jericho
Edge
Cena
Triple H


There are exceptions (Hogan, Hart, Mysterio) but those are normally because they were pioneers for some fanbase.

If most wrestlers skip that vesting period of a heel they would not become the megastars that they became. The next in line is the Miz.
 

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It's generally a truism with few exceptions.

It's one reason why most wrestlers either debut as or are heels when they climb up the ranks. You can definitely see that in today's WWE.
 

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This is definitely true. Throughout the history of pro wrestling, the biggest names were heels when they started. You missed The Undertaker, by the way. And I would also like to point out that Hart, part of the Hart Foundation, came to the WWF as a heel.

Who the hell is Sunny?
Tammy Lynn Sytch, manager of the Body Donnas in 1995. She stayed around for a few years after that with The Godwinns, the Smoking Gunns, and LOD 2000. In her prime, she was absolutely gorgeous. But later, she married Chris Candido, and her life went downhill.

 

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Discussion Starter #6
Who the hell is Sunny?
The poineer of the Divas. I agree it's a bit different since a woman has never been at the top of the entire company.

I know Bret Hart came as a heel but my point was more that megastars as babyfaces inherited their 'bad-boy' qualities which the fans couldn't help but love. In Bret's case his stint as a heel wasn't the reason he got over (though of course it helped him as a worker).
 

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This is definitely true. Throughout the history of pro wrestling, the biggest names were heels when they started. You missed The Undertaker, by the way. And I would also like to point out that Hart, part of the Hart Foundation, came to the WWF as a heel.



Tammy Lynn Sytch, manager of the Body Donnas in 1995. She stayed around for a few years after that with The Godwinns, the Smoking Gunns, and LOD 2000. In her prime, she was absolutely gorgeous. But later, she married Chris Candido, and her life went downhill.

Wasn't the Undertaker a heel when he debuted? Brother Love was his manager and he was squashing faces. The early 90's are a blur to me right now but I think when he debuted everyone was scared of him.



Edit: Nevermind I mis-read what you typed.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Well everyone was heel at some point in their career. Infact most guys debut heel.
My point is not that people are successful if they do both. And it doesn't guarantee success (Great Khali).

It's about the causal relationship. Of those that make it as top babyfaces, a huge part of their popularity is from retaining some of their rugged heel personality - just look at why the fans love Randy Orton.
 

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I completley agree, if your unable to gain heat as a heel when you can essentially say and do anything you want you aren't going to be a good face when there are a lot more restrictions on your actions.
 

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Just as an FYI, Hogan was a heel in AWA I believe, Hart Foundation was a heel tag team so even your exceptions were heels for the most part. Mysterio fits into the niche category of natural underdog because of his size. Much harder for him to be a good heel and he plays the role he is given very well.
 

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For the most part I would say that this is true only because as the heel the character can get more of a reaction from the fans. It's much easier to get people to not like you depending on what you do, or say. Even then that doesn't make that individual an entertaining heel.

Playing "face" without ever being a heel is very hard to do. The only other thing I could add would be that if you want to become a successful "face" you have to rely on creative, and the booking department to come up with something epic.

Take Goldberg, or Hogan for example. Yes, Hulk was a heel in the AWA, but that wasn't the WWF. Hulkamaniacs never really knew that Hulk was ever a "bad guy". By that time in the WWF Hogan had reached a mega level of popularity. One of the reasons Hogan was so popular was that he was rarely seen. This pissed other wrestlers off who were busting their assess as house shows while Hogan was out billing his name.

People loved Hogan because of what he did to Andre The Giant at WM 3, which was due to the booking, and Andre agreeing to put Hogan over. Again going back to my previous statement regrading how one may exceed a certain level of "face" stardom in the WWE. You put all that in to Hogan, and you have a mega "face" superstar.

Goldberg did house shows, but he had his streak which sent him to the top. Goldberg was one of the most popular wrestlers of all time for the short stint that he had. His name was synonymous WCW, and he was their Hogan for a short time.
 

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I think its true, that being said, there will always be the odd circumstance but in general its more or less spot on

Personally, I can see Sheamus become this badass face character on SmackDown! infact I'd base his character on Goldberg's arrival in WCW in 1998, I think he could pull this off and do it brilliantly and I think the WWE fans would lap it up
 

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I think its true, that being said, there will always be the odd circumstance but in general its more or less spot on

Personally, I can see Sheamus become this badass face character on SmackDown! infact I'd base his character on Goldberg's arrival in WCW in 1998, I think he could pull this off and do it brilliantly and I think the WWE fans would lap it up
I agree. When Seamus does finally turn face, I think the fans will lap it up. I hope they keep him heel for another while yet though.
 

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One of the few examples to the contrary that come to mind is Kofi Kingston. He has never been a heel in WWE and got over as a face.
 

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Tammy Lynn Sytch, manager of the Body Donnas in 1995. She stayed around for a few years after that with The Godwinns, the Smoking Gunns, and LOD 2000. In her prime, she was absolutely gorgeous. But later, she married Chris Candido, and her life went downhill.
Wow, that is not even close to Tammy Lynn's history. I mean, that's not as bad as the guy who didn't know who she was, but yeah... not even close.
 

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There have only been 5 exceptions to Raven's rule: Ricky Steamboat, Dusty Rhodes, Sting, The Ultimate Warrior, and Goldberg.

Kofi Kingston may be added to that list in the next year or two.
 
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