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Discussion Starter #1
Let's see: doesn't everyone think that WWE is getting rather lopsided on the face/heel element? Top faces: Cena/Orton/Punk/Mysterio... and Sheamus will join them soon. Top heels: Henry. Now, don't crack any fat jokes about them being equal...

If WWE wants to make new stars, they need to beat the existing stars. How did CM Punk 'break out'? He beat John Cena. How did Mark Henry 'break out'? Sure, he destroyed Big Show, Kane, Kozlov, but nobody would have taken him seriously if he didn't beat Randy Orton.

Alberto Del Rio could have been a star, but he couldn't get the job done against Cena. To give a heel credibility, he has got to be able to beat the face. Maybe not a totally clean win, as seen from CM Punk vs Cena, but maybe some interference from Ricardo when Cena is winning the match could have prevented an AA and led to Del Rio recovering, unleashing a storm of moves to drop Cena two minutes later. Imagine, if ADR tapped Cena out, he would have a ton of credibility he can be taken seriously as a major player and a serious threat for years to come. Anyone who beat him eventually would also have credibility.

Now, realise this: if WWE runs out of heel stars, they can't build any new face stars either. Sheamus can beat Henry to become a face star, but once that happens, the mystique of being a dragon slayer is gone, Henry no longer is a top heel, and there are no heels with any credibility to properly elevate any other faces like John Morrison or Daniel Bryan. Daniel Bryan beats Christian? So what? Who cares? Do you think Bryan can be a main-eventer if he beats Christian? Nope.

So the solution?
1) Create new heel stars by having them go over Cena/Orton
2) Turn face stars into heel stars (Punk/Orton)
 

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Its the WWE anything can happen.Who would've
thought Cena would be the face of the WWE so
with that being said anyone of those superstars
can be face/heel or tweener champ if the timing
is right.
 

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Well related to Heels having no cred is the fact that the WWE can't stick with one set of heels to have a chance to build up. They just give a mid/low card guy a hot potato put the belt on him then have them drop it and go back to the mid card afterwards. The WWE seems to have problems having the heel move on to another fued. They seem to just pick a heel out of a hat as a player for one storyline and then put their career on the shelf.

Wade Barret comes to mind amongst others.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Well related to Heels having no cred is the fact that the WWE can't stick with one set of heels to have a chance to build up. They just give a mid/low card guy a hot potato put the belt on him then have them drop it and go back to the mid card afterwards. The WWE seems to have problems having the heel move on to another fued. They seem to just pick a heel out of a hat as a player for one storyline and then put their career on the shelf.

Wade Barret comes to mind amongst others.
Indeed, they need to look at their roster, select carefully and decide: THIS is the guy I want as my top heel for years to come, and then give him a sustained push.
 

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Childish Gambino Is #1
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Indeed, they need to look at their roster, select carefully and decide: THIS is the guy I want as my top heel for years to come, and then give him a sustained push.
Definitely thought Barrett was going to be it.
He still can be, if they just wake up and start pushing him, it's so frustrating.
I just now found out he's 31, for some reason I thought he was much younger. They definitely need to hurry up.
Ugh....just thinking about Nexus pisses me off, all that potential and nothing.


Hopefully with this Rhodes/Orton feud Rhodes goes over and keeps getting credibility and character depth.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Definitely thought Barrett was going to be it.
He still can be, if they just wake up and start pushing him, it's so frustrating.
I just now found out he's 31, for some reason I thought he was much younger. They definitely need to hurry up.
Ugh....just thinking about Nexus pisses me off, all that potential and nothing.


Hopefully with this Rhodes/Orton feud Rhodes goes over and keeps getting credibility and character depth.
Orton's going to put Henry over, you think he'll put over two people in a row?
 

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Childish Gambino Is #1
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Orton's going to put Henry over, you think he'll put over two people in a row?
It does seem crazy.
But as long as their feud is longer than Orton/Henry then I can see it happening.
Orton can win at Vengeance, Rhodes can win at SS
(neither of them should be in a team match unless the conspiracy stable is going to be apart of it and Rhodes stays in it)
Just a simple back and forth type feud that would end with a big match with Rhodes going over.
Someone's going to have to put people over and if Cena isn't going to do it, then Orton HAS to.
And it seems like he's willing to.
 

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No credible heels = no credible faces.

Its up to the heels to get the faces over.
Right now the WWE don't have any REAL heels
(apart from Mark Henry) that's why faces today
are so bland and boring. Lack of good heels
to feud with.
 

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Definitely thought Barrett was going to be it.
He still can be, if they just wake up and start pushing him, it's so frustrating.
I just now found out he's 31, for some reason I thought he was much younger. They definitely need to hurry up.
Ugh....just thinking about Nexus pisses me off, all that potential and nothing.


Hopefully with this Rhodes/Orton feud Rhodes goes over and keeps getting credibility and character depth.

No. It's not believable for Rhodes to go over and he's not talented enough to be a Main Eventer. Him being a Main Eventer is more ridiculous than Miz, Del Rio, Dibiase, Zack Ryder, etc. Cody's character right now is terrible, his promos are worse and he's decent in the ring at best. If Orton's gonna put over a heel, make it Truth or Swagger, or even Ziggler. Not Rhodes of all people.(btw Smackdown has no good candidates for heels, which is why i mentioned all RAW heels)
 

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No credible heels = no credible faces.

Its up to the heels to get the faces over.
Right now the WWE don't have any REAL heels
(apart from Mark Henry) that's why faces today
are so bland and boring. Lack of good heels
to feud with.
This is because every time anyone starts to get over as a heel, they have to feud with cena.

And then they are squashed and left with no credibility.

That, right there, is why there are no decent heels, and that right there is the crux of ALL the current problems.
 

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Agree with the OP here on everything. I write fiction as a sole author and cooperatively and the main thing you gotta do is make your baddie look good. The better he/she/it looks, the better pay off you get when the goodies come in and kick ass.

The guy who beats Mark Henry is going to be a big deal (Come on Sheamus, if anybody can it's you!) but apart from Henry, I've not seen a particularly credible main event heel.

ADR, I like and I think he's good, but Starship.paint's right; if he would have made John Cena (Next to CM Punk, the most unstoppable force in WWE)... if he would have made Cena tap to the armbar, then he would become feared and this whole idea of "ADR can't draw heat" would have went right out of the window, because people would've been forced to take notice. and then you have a heel for a new hero to beat.

I don't know which member said it, but I'm quoting it anyway:

Heels are smart, Faces have heart
I love this saying, and it really rings true in storytelling. The heels should win battle after battle, so then the face can win the war and it's epic. Even if Del Rio cheated his way to victory after victory, add just one or two clean wins into the mix and you have a credible heel. He's still impossible to beat and you'd still mark out for whichever hero kicks his ass.

Cena and Orton, from what I've heard on this forum, simply do not need titles to maintain their popularity. They can afford to lose, if it's handled correctly. Use them to create heel stars. Or turn them one of them heel. Echoing OP sentiments, I know...

Wade Barret has an awesome character. I love the way English people make such great baddies in American Television. Boy, that 'War of Independence' is still grating on you guys, hahaha. But he does make a terrific villian. He has the look, the attitude... but sadly not the win/loss record.

It's all about booking at the end of the day. Aside from Brock Lesnar and Stone Cold, I don't know any superstar that has got their hands on the the WWE title for the first time and it's looked completely believable. But booking will always win the day, and those superstars eventually look right at home. So it's not like it can't be done.

Whoever turns heel in this conspiracy angle is going to up there with Mark Henry, which will be good.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
@Xenon_ really agree with the "heels are smart, faces have heart" line. It will really mean more for the face to win a real war against the heel, not beating him in his first try for ADR.

@Scavo Rhodes? Still not sure on that one yet.

Essentially I just realized that Cena made Punk, Orton made Henry this year, so it doesn't seem too bad in the star making department. The problem is that Punk turned face, and Henry's not a long term main-eventer. WWE are going to get their stars but it's just lopsided right now.
 

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Very well said OP. For example, if Punk pins Del Rio to win the title at HIAC, would that be a really big deal> Not really, because ADR hasn't been treated like a true main eventer (or he was, until he went against Cena). Now, contrast that with how Henry is being built. If Sheamus beats Henry for the title, will it be a big deal? Yes, because Orton couldn't do it. It will make Sheamus look like a million bucks.

This and the "match outcomes no longer matter" problem that they have are their biggest issues because they both tie into each other and they are both failures of booking on the simplest of levels. You just cannot have a truly well booked show without solving them.
 

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It's a simple solution, book the heels better. Don't make them all look inferior to the top faces and up and coming top faces who can only hope to escape with a cheap victory. Let them win clean. That way, when the top face goes over them again after the clean win, both look great as both were seen as credible.
 

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@Xenon_ really agree with the "heels are smart, faces have heart" line. It will really mean more for the face to win a real war against the heel, not beating him in his first try for ADR.

@Scavo Rhodes? Still not sure on that one yet.

Essentially I just realized that Cena made Punk, Orton made Henry this year, so it doesn't seem too bad in the star making department. The problem is that Punk turned face, and Henry's not a long term main-eventer. WWE are going to get their stars but it's just lopsided right now.
Yeah, now think I think about it, I think it was GreenDayEdgeHead. She's a great poster.

Yeah, I guess Cena did make Punk (I say 'I guess' because I've only been watching since MITB) and, I don't dismiss what Kane and Big Show must have done for Henry's career, but Orton definitely made him, in the end. They (WWE) can obviously do what needs to be done. For whatever reason, though, they don't seem to be doing it as well, anymore.
 

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Let's see: doesn't everyone think that WWE is getting rather lopsided on the face/heel element? Top faces: Cena/Orton/Punk/Mysterio... and Sheamus will join them soon. Top heels: Henry. Now, don't crack any fat jokes about them being equal...

If WWE wants to make new stars, they need to beat the existing stars. How did CM Punk 'break out'? He beat John Cena. How did Mark Henry 'break out'? Sure, he destroyed Big Show, Kane, Kozlov, but nobody would have taken him seriously if he didn't beat Randy Orton.

Alberto Del Rio could have been a star, but he couldn't get the job done against Cena. To give a heel credibility, he has got to be able to beat the face. Maybe not a totally clean win, as seen from CM Punk vs Cena, but maybe some interference from Ricardo when Cena is winning the match could have prevented an AA and led to Del Rio recovering, unleashing a storm of moves to drop Cena two minutes later. Imagine, if ADR tapped Cena out, he would have a ton of credibility he can be taken seriously as a major player and a serious threat for years to come. Anyone who beat him eventually would also have credibility.

Now, realise this: if WWE runs out of heel stars, they can't build any new face stars either. Sheamus can beat Henry to become a face star, but once that happens, the mystique of being a dragon slayer is gone, Henry no longer is a top heel, and there are no heels with any credibility to properly elevate any other faces like John Morrison or Daniel Bryan. Daniel Bryan beats Christian? So what? Who cares? Do you think Bryan can be a main-eventer if he beats Christian? Nope.

So the solution?
1) Create new heel stars by having them go over Cena/Orton
2) Turn face stars into heel stars (Punk/Orton)
3) Give the heel a long, solid push, and have him beat everyone in his division. For example, if the heel is fighting for the US Title, have him win it, then defend it against almost ALL his opponents, dirty and sometimes clean. That always works.
4) Feed Mick Foley to them. Or someone who is good at putting guys over. The Undertaker, Big Show, Kane, Jericho was good, HBK was good at it, and of course, have them go over someone like Orton or Cena, but I don't think they wanna do that very often.

Good thread OP.
 

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As long as there's a Cena the way he is now, there won't be any high caliber heels on Raw. When was the last time Cena lost clean, no interruptions, no foot under the rope, no count out, no DQ of any kind? I think it was HIAC 2009. Heels on Raw will never go ahead if they're always below Cena. If ADR beats cena clean, he'd be the most credible single heel on Raw in years.

Smackdown has an easier time, though Orton does his fair share of win-hogging.
 
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