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Discussion Starter #21
This is a thing I notice when I come from NxT, it's not really a WWE thing, more of a main roster thing.

I also think it;s to do with the wrestlers being overworked, where as those on NxT they barely wrestle every week, where as the main roster will probably work 2 - 4 times a week (depending on the PPV schedule). WWE need to have a revolving roster. But you are right OP, the matches are indeed slower, and thats been more prominent lately.

People thinking this has anythin to do with indy flippy stuff is missing the point. Bret Hart v Yokozuna at wrestlemania 10 had faster pacing than he wrestlers today. And thats the key word, its the pacing. not so much the moves being performed.

WWE wrestlers today are like
move - delay - move - resthold - move - pose and delay - 2 consecutive moves - resthold - move - pander to crowd - move - delay - 3 consecutive moves - long delay.

It's just so slow! The matches never have a chance to get going and by the time they do it's over.
Yes, this is exactly what I mean. I'm certainly not calling for more spots, I just wish they weren't so stop - start between the spots that are already there. They seem to have an abundance of crowd pandering and reaction shots now and the match never starts to flow or find a rhythm. I noticed nobody seems to throw punches/kicks or run the ropes as much. Is that what's missing between the moves?
 

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I never really picked up on it until Mania since I only really watch the big 4 these days but when did the WWE style slow down this much? Kofi and Bryan looked like they were treading in quicksand, with a solid 30 seconds of dead air between every move.

It's like the agents are training these guys based on how they remember wrestling, not how it actually was. As if they said "you've got to sell more to create tension and drama" so every match is now the middle 15 minute heat segment in a classic Rock n Roll Express match.

It isn't just Kofi and Bryan either, everyone on the roster wrestles like this now, it's unbearable.
I can see where you're coming from. A lot of these moves in WWE really only looks like it would keep them down for a matter of seconds. Power moves are something that can slow down a match, but we really don't see that much anymore. They're all out of breath in a couple minutes into the match. I see a lot of intensity pace lacking in WWE. When Daniel Bryan first started he really had that, and it really helped him get over, but now his style seemed to submit more onto the bland style and pacing. I guess you can attribute most of that to having a severe injury. Bryan still has his moments though.

I think for a great song you gotta have your highs, mids, and lows. The same goes for wrestling. After that it's all about finding the right mix.
 

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I never really picked up on it until Mania since I only really watch the big 4 these days but when did the WWE style slow down this much? Kofi and Bryan looked like they were treading in quicksand, with a solid 30 seconds of dead air between every move.

It's like the agents are training these guys based on how they remember wrestling, not how it actually was. As if they said "you've got to sell more to create tension and drama" so every match is now the middle 15 minute heat segment in a classic Rock n Roll Express match.

It isn't just Kofi and Bryan either, everyone on the roster wrestles like this now, it's unbearable.
But Bryan/Kofi is one of the best matches of the year so far and was the only top class match at WM. It got the crowd involved and got the biggest reactions of the night. Give me that then fans thrown around beach balls and shouting "Cm Punk". Storytelling isnt something that happens in WWE a lot and it happened during that match.
 

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You say this OP but personally I've been so exposed to the stuff in NXT, the indies, ROH and sometimes NJPW that I have absolutely soured on the spot fests they produced. Prefer WWE's main roster pacing all day long.
 

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I never really picked up on it until Mania since I only really watch the big 4 these days but when did the WWE style slow down this much? Kofi and Bryan looked like they were treading in quicksand, with a solid 30 seconds of dead air between every move.

It's like the agents are training these guys based on how they remember wrestling, not how it actually was. As if they said "you've got to sell more to create tension and drama" so every match is now the middle 15 minute heat segment in a classic Rock n Roll Express match.
It isn't just Kofi and Bryan either, everyone on the roster wrestles like this now, it's unbearable.
The Kofi vs. Bryan match was a FANTASTIC match and the slowness you speak of is called ring psychology. It was not the spot fest that you see in many matches that have no rhyme or reason. They told the story of Daniel being the highly skilled champion that can beat you in a number of ways and Kofi being the underdog having to fight and claw and endure before he finally was able to beat him.

This match was far from the 5 or 6 rest holds per match we used to see in the 80's and early 90's. Everything in the Bryan/Kofi match had purpose and the outside factors (Rowan and New Day) were perfectly kept to a minimum.

If you want to talk slow and unbearable, the match you need to bring up is the snooze fest that was HHH vs. Batista.
 

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You say this OP but personally I've been so exposed to the stuff in NXT, the indies, ROH and sometimes NJPW that I have absolutely soured on the spot fests they produced. Prefer WWE's main roster pacing all day long.
I'd argue NJPW has fairly leisurely pacing. They have 30-40 minute matches on the regular! It's just that many of their climaxes are famous for having multiple bombs and spots after starting out slow.

WWE matches often have no flow. They know they have trained their audiences like monkeys to only wait for the finishers, so you have MANY matches that happen to very little heat until the finisher teases start. Occasionally they will have a gem of a match with old school pacing, that's appreciated by like 25% of the remaining smarks who like that stuff, but most of the time it's just people throwing random moves and then an anticlimactic finish off some stupidly booked ending. That's the WWE way.

Vince more and more hates everything about wrestling, yet he produces more PPVs a year that are all about wrestling, designs matches that are poorly told, and often pushes a lot of people who can't fill 5 decent minutes of TV time if they don't have a mic in their hand (and many can't do that either). People around here get accused for being "workrate plebes" but you have over 12 PPVs a year where 5-6 hours is all about wrestling and so many who can't tell a story a lick in the ring, or have match producers who know nothing about how to engage their audiences in a wrestling match, let alone train their audiences to care about what a well told match is.

I've also seen so many really compelling WWE matches that would be a hit ANYWHERE else in the world, but lost on the monkey audiences in the WWE because they've trained them to watch the WWE yet not think of them as a "wrestling" company. If you're a wrestling company, and you don't want people to think of you as a wrestling company, you get crowds who don't care about your wrestling. It's self-defeating.
 

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That's what happens when you have your talents work 3-4 house-shows per week, on top of Raw/SD, and a PPV once per month. They work alot, so they can't go all out like they would if they were only wrestling a few times per month like other promotions do.
 

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I just think wrestlers are painfully overexposed and their in-ring style just ends up being formulaic because they tend to go through the motions week in and week out on TV. Even when the get to PPV, it kinda feels the same. Case in point, Roman/McIntrye at mania. They wrestled the same style that they would do a Raw and they couldn't wrestle differently than what they normally do and it made you feel like what the whole point of them doing a match together at all if this was the best thing they could produce at the biggest show of the year.
 

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The absolute worst one for it is AJ Styles. During the match at Mania he'd go to do the springboard forearm, but he couldn't just do the move. He had to stop, look at Orton, look at the crowd, look at Orton, slooooowly adjust his elbow pad... and then do the move. This overly dramatic pacing took me out of every single match.
Yeah and VKM be like :vince$ :vince$ :vince$ :vince$ :vince$ :vince$ :vince$ :vince$ :vince$ :vince$
 

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The Fastest of the Fastest of Jamaican Sprinters
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Jim Ross discussed this recently on Konnan's podcast and explained that the issue isn't pace - it's the fact that the matches are formulaic and guys are just getting their sh*t in.

I don't think the pace is the problem with their matches, it's the psychology.
WWE has like 4-5 match formulas they use.
Painfully slow?? I wish, they need to actually slow down and tell a story in the ring.
It's not too slow lol. If anything it's way too fast. They've slowly made this fast paced, spotty style the standard. The moment a wrestler uses a rest hold, fans shove a thumb up thier ass and tune out because they lack any attention span and have become so spoiled. Storytelling has taken a backseat in favor of this high risk, high impact indy style. It's also weeding out the wrestlers who don't work this style, at least minimizing them.
This is why they should hire someone like Jake Robert's, bring back storytelling. It's like wrestlers now have to hit all their signature moves in every single match.
^^^^These guys get it. Slow down, tell a story, and make it feel like I'm watching a fight and not a goddamn gymnastics exhibition. There's a reason people lose their goddamn minds for Velveteen Dream, and it's not just his (admittedly great) character or mic work. His matches all feel like they tell not only a story, but different stories based on the broader storyline.
 

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I just think wrestlers are painfully overexposed and their in-ring style just ends up being formulaic because they tend to go through the motions week in and week out on TV. Even when the get to PPV, it kinda feels the same. Case in point, Roman/McIntrye at mania. They wrestled the same style that they would do a Raw and they couldn't wrestle differently than what they normally do and it made you feel like what the whole point of them doing a match together at all if this was the best thing they could produce at the biggest show of the year.
Moreover, those guys are an example of WWE guys mostly trained in the WWE style having no extra gear because they don't have the background or experience in changing things up to deviate beyond the set WWE formula they've learned their entire careers.

Roman is good at the WWE style, but he knows no other way of working beyond that style. So there is nothing in his big matches that can be different from what you've seen before.

The people in the company who have the most success raising things another level are those who have had experience outside of the WWE, like Bryan and AJ.
 

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edit:Also LOL @ all the people saying "slow it down so it looks more like a fight" :swaggyp have y'all ever seen a fight. They don't do rest holds



Every AJ Styles match epitomizes this problem...

In my opinion, wrestling should be super aggressive and fast paced. Wrestlers need to fight with animosity and energy. In my opinion, most of the roster would benefit from having Goldberg paced sprint matches in place of the WWE formula of 10 minutes of headlocks followed by 10 minutes of trading finishers

If you're going to have 1000 random matches on TV, book em to be fast and hard hitting. Make em look like real fights. I would straight up BAN wrist locks and headlocks. In a real athletic contest if two guys are hugging each other then either one of them is tapping out or the referee is standing them up so they can actually get back to the FIGHT
 

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Do you really think these guys are allowed to do what they really would like to do in the ring? If anything, they can choose some specific moves or spots, but I imagine a decent majority of every match isn't really their choice. There is still a WWE style for a reason, I doubt every indy guy comes in and is more than overjoyed to transition to WWE's styles.

I blame their agents, their reliance on near falls (in particular finisher kick outs), and the notion of some guys that they need to do all their moves and spots in every match (which might be encouraged, who knows?)
 

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edit:Also LOL @ all the people saying "slow it down so it looks more like a fight" :swaggyp have y'all ever seen a fight. They don't do rest holds



Every AJ Styles match epitomizes this problem...

In my opinion, wrestling should be super aggressive and fast paced. Wrestlers need to fight with animosity and energy. In my opinion, most of the roster would benefit from having Goldberg paced sprint matches in place of the WWE formula of 10 minutes of headlocks followed by 10 minutes of trading finishers

If you're going to have 1000 random matches on TV, book em to be fast and hard hitting. Make em look like real fights. I would straight up BAN wrist locks and headlocks. In a real athletic contest if two guys are hugging each other then either one of them is tapping out or the referee is standing them up so they can actually get back to the FIGHT
Hit the nail on he head for me.

I would also like to add the crowd pandering that wrestlers do. Oh god, for fuck's sake, concentrate on the match. Why the fuck are you looking at the crowd or calling for your move so much. All you're doing is letting the opponent know whats coming. And lo and behold, almost always the opponent counters it.

Its particularly bad when high flyers do this like Ospreay seems to be doing quite a lot recently. I know the popular philosophy is not to just spam moves and try to do less while getting the crowd invested, but for fuck's sake a high flyer is supposed be high risk. If you want to make me think your moves look realistic, try to minimize the possibility that your opponent can counter your moves by doing them quickly and don't make it super obvious with the crowd pandering between each move you make.

I personally think NXT's style is perfect. Someone mentioned earlier that they need to slow down a bit more instead, and mentioned Dream. But Dream was able to make his moves mean something while not going overboard with the crowd pandering and keeping the match a solid pace. Even his hulking up spot I thought didn't look too bad in not taking me out of the match.
 
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Someone mentioned earlier that they need to slow down a bit more instead, and mentioned Dream. But Dream was able to make his moves mean something while not going overboard with the crowd pandering and keeping the match a solid pace. Even his hulking up spot I thought didn't look too bad in not taking me out of the match.
Yeah I also thought the Velveteen Dream comment was weird. Like, TVD is slow? Since when? He's my favorite current wrestler so I think I have a pretty good idea of what his matches are like and he is in no way slow.

He's meaningful. Everything he does has purpose to it. Everything links together and leads to the next sequence. But he's not "slow". He's never had a slow paced match and he doesn't really even do rest holds.

So a lot of people have it in reverse. Meaningful action requires the wrestlers to speed it up, not slow it down. Look at any Goldberg match. Everything he did sure as hell meant something, that's why his matches were so short. Real life fights work a similar way. There are no judges in wrestling, it's pure stoppage, so it doesn't make sense for 90% of the matches to be so cautious and slow and long and dull


And true, NXT does a much better job and generally has shorter, more entertaining filler matches
 

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Better too slow than too fast. If you wanna watch fast flippy action then watch pwg or aew
 
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