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Seafort you have been predicting the Disney thing for years, in fact you said in 2015 it would happen by 2020. It's obviously not happening because a) Vince won't sell unless stupid money was offered and Disney wouldn't see any value paying 10+ billion for a wrestling company they have no clue how to run

Time and time again on here we get people claiming NXT has no storylines or characters, clearly people who don't watch the show. Vince himself knows that too many characters and zany storylines without a red-hot story and you get WWE 93-96 or wcw 99-01.

Once again the Bray Wyatt character started in NXT, Enzo and Cass started in NXT, Elias, Lacey Evans southern belle, all the Horsewomen, Roman Reigns had a much more defined character in NXT as did Bo Dallas as did the Ascension who were smart thinking vampires. Adam Rose over the top stuff worked in NXT, Bayley was a child like babyface but had a clear character unlike main roster, Sasha banks was much stronger character in NXT, so was Aleister Black and so on

Also while Vince is most successful promoter ever the success in the 80s and late 90s came about because there was millions of wrestling fans NOT watching or going to his show. He just needed the right guy in hogan and storyline in Austin vs Vince to get those fans interested so they try out his product. There isn't millions of fans today watching another pro wrestling show ready to switch over if Elias got hot..that's the difference

Back to NXT some of the best route wrestling storylines have taken place there past 5 years..that's why the whole thing has grown from small warehouse where they struggled to attract 50 people for tv tapings to selling out NBA sized arenas for Takeovers. That only happens if fans become invested in characters and stories

Stories like the year long Sami Zayn redemption and then his best friend Owens turning on him immediately after winning title, bayleys journey from jobber to champion, Gable spending weeks convincing Jordan to tag with him, Ciampa turning on his tag partner Gargano, dream attempting to get black just to say his name
 

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Discussion Starter #82
I don't know what WWEs problem with micromanaging and filtering the main roster has anything to do with the criticism of Triple Hs lack of entertainment and creativity?
Because the thread isn't about HHH - it's about HHH vs McMahon. In which case, McMahon pretty clearly has no creativity.

You cannot say NXT sucks because it has no creativity, when Smackdown and RAW's biggest problems by far...are it's lack of creativity. Furthermore, the rosters creativity is stifled by management - so how on earth can you say "I don't know what..." - what?

People are saying that WWE is boring now because the roster is boring, and the roster is boring because their characters and promos aren't interesting -....uh...and that has to do with HHH why, because they used to wrestle on NXT? The reason for that is because Vince doesn't let them do what they want to do. That is an objective fact...it is documented beyond belief that WWE is scripted, their gimmicks and movesets are given - so any criticism that you have of a boring vanilla dude is going to be Vince's fault, more or less. I am not sure if you are aware, but even the play by play and color commentary are fed every thing they say.

So what i said is quite relevant. You cannot say that WWE's current talent lacks big character or creativity or what ever - when they're all following Vince's orders. That means that the direct problem is Vince McMahon. If a guy comes off as vanilla, it is because Vince makes them - it's literally all his call. Most wrestlers show more personality in NXT than they did in the main show despite less tv time, why do you think that is?

At least when you have someone who puts out bad stuff you can expect a new Attitude Era
No you cannot. And that is something that many wrestling fans need to let go - there is no such thing as a new Attitude Era, and most of the creative things that happened in the Attitude Era were not Vince McMahon's ideas.

Vince is a genius at production and promoting, he is not and never was a good creator or booker. The WWE killed off its competition because of superior business practices.

At least when I watch the worst McMahon wrestling show I can laugh or facepalm but what to do after watching the Survivor Series 2019 ending?
I have no idea what you're referring too because my time quite frankly is too valuable to watch bad television. If you are implying that WWE is so bad that it is good, I would say most people would disagree with that statement. And you likely just watch wrestling out of habit, addiction, or perhaps you haven't figured out anything better to do - and not really because you think WWE is hilariously funny because it is so bad. Maybe I am dead wrong on that guess, but if you enjoy it then to each his own - but reputation wise, WWE is not a product that is "so bad it is good".

People watch and like AAA wrestling because it is outlandishly funny and bad, it is Attitude Era on crack.

Smackdown is not Attitude Era on crack. It is stupid, yes, but it is also boring. At least that is what most people would say. I have no vendetta against Vince McMahon, I'm just calling it like it is. People don't like RAW because RAW is boring, and I don't personally watch RAW for that reason. I don't really watch NXT either, but if I had to pick between the two, it would pretty easily be NXT.

And by the way, more serious story telling is actually what is in now. Hence why prestige TV is a thing. You are making the big mistake of being stuck in what was popular in the late 90s. Again, the reason why there hasn't been a new Attitude Era is because it isn't 1998 anymore. Having good plots, even if grounded is more acceptable in 2019 television than ever before. No one is watching comedy with laugh tracks or girls gone wild MTV esque shows for a reason, the landscape has changed, crash TV isn't in anymore. Vince McMahon will never make another trendy product.

People need to realize that the only thing worse than a show with bad gimmicks and bad booking is a show with no gimmicks and a bland booking.
Gobbledy Gooker at Survivor Series 1990 was bad but it would be worse if instead there was a random Paul Roma vs Boris Zhukov match with no storyline.
First off, there is a dramatic middle ground between those two things.

Second off, WWE has plenty of matches with no storylines - in fact the biggest difference between NXT and WWE, is that NXT actually follows a storyline (or booking at least), WWE doesn't have much story at all, so this is a very strange thing for you to say. I am assuming that because WWE has very long promos you equate this to them being story heavy?

Three, NXT has more flare than that - people saying NXT is like 1970s wrestling makes me think they have no actually seen 1970s wrestling



Vince McMahon is mega old and out of touch, he's not creative, he doesn't listen to his advisors, he doesn't like wrestling (which is a good thing somehow, even though most of the problems with RAW/SMACKDOWN is due to it not being related to wrestling). The WWE would fair much better if HHH was in charge, and also, RAW/SMACKDOWN wouldn't be booked exactly like NXT. NXT is booked the way it is because it is a developmental show. There isn't supposed to be long term big money angles in NXT, it is designed to be this way by Vince himself.


Believe it or not, a show being booked like a wrestling show...does work. HHH understands protection, investing in characters long term - these are important for making a show both compelling and important commercially (this is how wrestling, boxing and MMA sell) - modern WWE does not have this. Wrestlers aren't protected. Belts aren't protected. Wins losses do not mean anything. Stipulations do not mean anything. Finishers do not mean anything (problem in NXT also). WWE is hot shot booking, and that stuff doesn't work - HHH at the very lest won't book this way, so he already has a better chance than Vince does.
I'm talking about the flaws of Triple Hs vision and you are talking about the flaws of Vince and Raw that has nothing to do with the topic and doesn't affect NXT. Apples and oranges. Having a cringeworthy segment on SmackDown with a guy in a puppy costume has nothing to do that Triple H is only able to do exhibition matches and tournaments.
You remind me of one guy who knew the whole history of France, very impressive. The problem was he talked about France even when the topic was something else, not very impressive.
 

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Discussion Starter #83
You have explained it even better than I did. What Triple H does is just lazy.
People don't get that if you have the entertainment aspect it can be crappy but that kind of wrestling leaves always the door open for a new Hogan, Kane or Goldust one day but if there is no entertainment you will never get a new Mankind, Rock or Undertaker simply because it's not what they ask for on wrestling shows in the future.
It's like having a TV channel that has movies, maybe it shows crappy movies like After Earth but as long as there are movies there is always hope to watch the Godfather one day. If the TV channel stops showing movies there will never be a chance to watch Godfather.
I get the sense that if Levesque were to be transported back to 1989 and build NXT then with his choice of talent, its "characters" and roster might be:

Curt Hennig, Terry Taylor, Big Freddie [Ottman], Tom Magee, Jerry Allen, James Powers, Brady Boone, Owen Hart, The Malenko Brothers, Brian Pillman, Ray Traylor, Marcus Calloway, Bob Bradley, Carlos Espada, Dustin Rhodes, and Double Trouble.

You'd never get a Mr. Perfect, Big Boss Man, or Undertaker out of that mix. You'd get great workers and memorable matches, but would they stand the test of time?
Let's just say Triple H is the new Verne Gagne. Verne Gagne wasn't cool in 1984 let alone in 2019. Verne at least refused to be entertaining, he had Hulk Hogan after filming Rocky III on a silver platter but he didn't want to go the sports-entertainment route. Triple H is just unable to be creative.
 

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I'm talking about the flaws of Triple Hs vision and you are talking about the flaws of Vince and Raw that has nothing to do with the topic and doesn't affect NXT. Apples and oranges. Having a cringeworthy segment on SmackDown with a guy in a puppy costume has nothing to do that Triple H is only able to do exhibition matches and tournaments.
You remind me of one guy who knew the whole history of France, very impressive. The problem was he talked about France even when the topic was something else, not very impressive.
So nxt for last 7.5 years has only been exhibition matches and tournaments...really

1 minute 20





 

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The majority of people on message boards like this WANT the product to be bad so they can complain about it. And if the product overall is good, they'll find something to come here to rant about. They'll never admit it, but any sensible person knows it's true. The people who frequent these boards take much more pleasure in complaining about the bad than they do complimenting/appreciating the good.
 

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Only exhibition and tournaments

You guys need to start watching from at least 2014. HHH made Bo Dallas funnest character on TV in late 2013..Bo freaking Dallas


Imagine how over this Roman reigns would be with the smarky fans that inhabit this forum. He would be considered a freaking god give his size, looks and athletism


It literally can't get any worst then it current state.
It could get far far worse e.g

1. HHH as wwe champion opening and closing show each week, Stephanie as women's champion dominating division
2. Lesnar losing title in comedy segment to Hornswoggle who then is challenged by el torito
3. Seth green pinning the Fiend for wwe title and David arquette becoming his next challenger
4. UT and WWE title changing hands weekly for 3 months in nonsense fashion
5. Charles Barkley maineventing Wrestlemania with Curt Hawkins
6. Z list celebrites all over raw and SD each week.
7. The Anon gm to return and rule that you can never leave ring during matches or go over top rope or you get disqualified
8. Every title on a poll match
9. Vince returns, wins title, mainevents ppvs vs Jerry Lawler, JBL, Michael Cole, John laurinaitis, Linda, Stephanie
10. Nia Jax wins both universal and wwe title
 

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Valid, you have good points. However I would say that NXT is a successfully executed version of professional wrestling that would be right at Home in the late 70s. It knows it’s fan base and retains them, but your ceiling is the equivalent of a Mid South Coliseum blow off when they do their quarterly Takeovers. When NXT is consistently drawing 5-7K each week for TV tapins and averaging 5K for 80 house shows a quarter, then I’ll start to believe it is a viable vision of drawing in casual fans and not being anything more than a product that caters to a hardcore, workrate fan base.

And yes, I’ve been thinking of the possibility Disney would buy WWE for a while. And it makes sense when you look at the trends in the marketplace. But the actual prediction of 2020...I’m not sure I ever said that UNLESS you are talking about that fun little fictional dystopian timeline from five years ago (“Roman’s Reign”) where WWE hubris and an untimely lawsuit led to their ultimate purchase by Bushiroad.
 

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Valid, two questions. You cite examples of NXT booking and character creation (Bo Dallas, Adam Rose, Wyatt’s, Ascension). But:

1) There seemed to be more traditional SE character creation in NXT five years ago than today. Am I wrong on this?
2) Dusty Rhodes was the booker five years ago, right? If not, who was it?
3) Is HHH the creative force now?
 

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1. I dunno. HHH is allowing those who find success elsewhere retain their character more these days so make it feel that way
2. Dusty was never booker in nxt. He was head writer in FCW but Ryan Ward became head writer once NXT moved to full sail in june 2012, Dusty remained in backstage advisory role https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2013/01/recent-wwe-attendance-numbers-559578/
3. HHH has always been head of creative, it's his baby afterall
 

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Discussion Starter #91
I'm talking about the flaws of Triple Hs vision and you are talking about the flaws of Vince and Raw that has nothing to do with the topic and doesn't affect NXT. Apples and oranges. Having a cringeworthy segment on SmackDown with a guy in a puppy costume has nothing to do that Triple H is only able to do exhibition matches and tournaments.
You remind me of one guy who knew the whole history of France, very impressive. The problem was he talked about France even when the topic was something else, not very impressive.
So nxt for last 7.5 years has only been exhibition matches and tournaments...really

1 minute 20





Video 1 & 2 is on the WWWF 1970 level. "Sami Zayn proved to be a better athlete and the whole roster celebrtes but suddenly his friend turned on him to prove he is a better athlete" that proves my point. Why does video 1 look similar to video 2? I guess this is the only thing they are able to book. And what have video packages anything to do with my point?
 

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1. I dunno. HHH is allowing those who find success elsewhere retain their character more these days so make it feel that way
2. Dusty was never booker in nxt. He was head writer in FCW but Ryan Ward became head writer once NXT moved to full sail in june 2012, Dusty remained in backstage advisory role https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2013/01/recent-wwe-attendance-numbers-559578/
3. HHH has always been head of creative, it's his baby afterall
Interesting, because my next comment has weight depending on how deeply involved in creative that Levesque had been in with NXT. Or how long their current booker has been running NXT. A long time ago - 1994 - Jerry Jarrett had a great quote in an interview. He said that every great booker has ONE good run in them. After that it is diminishing returns. I think you saw this with all of the creative talents who revolutionized storytelling in their time - Pat Patterson, Dusty Rhodes, Paul Heyman, and Vince Russo - all of them had one great run in them before things became stale. If HHH was largely the person who drove Creative from 2014 forward, we may have already seen his best.
 

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Only exhibition and tournaments

You guys need to start watching from at least 2014. HHH made Bo Dallas funnest character on TV in late 2013..Bo freaking Dallas


Imagine how over this Roman reigns would be with the smarky fans that inhabit this forum. He would be considered a freaking god give his size, looks and athletism


It literally can't get any worst then it current state.
It could get far far worse e.g

1. HHH as wwe champion opening and closing show each week, Stephanie as women's champion dominating division
2. Lesnar losing title in comedy segment to Hornswoggle who then is challenged by el torito
3. Seth green pinning the Fiend for wwe title and David arquette becoming his next challenger
4. UT and WWE title changing hands weekly for 3 months in nonsense fashion
5. Charles Barkley maineventing Wrestlemania with Curt Hawkins
6. Z list celebrites all over raw and SD each week.
7. The Anon gm to return and rule that you can never leave ring during matches or go over top rope or you get disqualified
8. Every title on a poll match
9. Vince returns, wins title, mainevents ppvs vs Jerry Lawler, JBL, Michael Cole, John laurinaitis, Linda, Stephanie
10. Nia Jax wins both universal and wwe title
Wow that promo by reigns was easily the most entertaining promo I’ve ever seen from him outside of when he said “this is my yard now” after getting booed for 10 minutes
 

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Triple H and whoever is at the helm in upper management of the product just need to surround themselves with good creative people, and make sure to not always railroad upper management's desire for every little thing. Ideas need to be heard from creative, management, bookers, road agents, and the wrestlers. Wrestlers need to do their part to be able to pitch ideas and do their absolute best to get over with the character they portray. Management also needs to loosen reigns on scripted promos and have to roll the dice with ad-libbing to an extent. The balance needs to return compared to today's product 100% run and directed by Vince.
 

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HHH will never become CEO nor Chairman of WWE. The CEO or Chair will either be Steph, Shane, or George Barrios. The most HHH can become of WWE is President who will then have to answer to CEO and Chair. HHH will always be in charge of Creative, and Talent. Remember his position of EVP as Creative, Talents, and Live Events in which half those Live Events have been record low attendance, buys, while also having questionable Creative. This wasn't bad in the late 90's-early 2000's.

Keep in mind that you have to go back a few years with the Stephanie/Bella storyline where Stephanie was supposed to tag a mug shot but then HHH claimed it was not done because his daughters would be embarrassed and bullied at school over it when in reality it was because Steph's image could be tarnished when she runs for political office at state or federal level and then that photo would surface so she told HHH to cancel that portion of the storyline.


HHH will never be 100% in control of WWE, it will be the beginning of the end for WWE if he does take over complete control. In the event he does take 100% control, you will see some other key execs go to other bigger companies, and a couple could go to smaller wrestling promotions and expand them.

Therefore, taking Steph's controlling ways into account you can see her PR Stunts and her job as CBO is a disaster and she would be fired in any other company. Had HHH said half the crap he says in interviews while working for another company he would be fired because he has no clue what he is talking about half the time.

The stockmarket hates it when uneducated or entitled people take over a company they never created, and that is also why HHH will never be at the top of business side of things in WWE. This idea that HHH created NXT is a sad excuse to make him look relevant when we all know it was originally FCW as a feeder program for WWE which is originally based on Shane's idea of reviving ECW as a development promotion...the very thing NXT became in which HHH has once again tried to claim it is not a development brand, but everyone sees right through his lies. HHH did not create NXT, it was FCW, he did not invest his own money into it. HHH is Peter Principle.
 

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All you have to do is look at NXT when Dusty was there and what it has become since he died and you'll see who the real genius behind NXT's success was. Triple H has turned it into Ring of Honor with better production values.

If he takes over (I still think it'll be Stephanie or it gets sold), it won't return to the glory days, but I think it will be better than the current product. I think at the very least Triple H will give the wrestlers more freedom in their promos/character. Vince's micromanagement is what really kills the WWE.
 

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There are a lot of people in for a rude awakening when Triple HGH takes over the booking duties. They are going to realize what I have been saying for years, that Triple HGH doesn't have a clue on how to book anything much less a major wrestling promotion.
 

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There are a lot of people in for a rude awakening when Triple HGH takes over the booking duties. They are going to realize what I have been saying for years, that Triple HGH doesn't have a clue on how to book anything much less a major wrestling promotion.
his name is triple h, not triple hgh lol
 

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I am the first who will admit that Vince McMahon was behind many cringeworthy things in WWE history. In almost 40 years he was responsible for many bad gimmicks, storylines and decisions but when it comes to Vince we all need to be fair and admit that he is creative and full of ideas no matter if they're great or not.

If you watch what Triple H did with NXT you have a little preview what Triple Hs vision of WWE looks like and that's the problem.
Like every family business it's common sense that when the big boss dies or retires his children will take over so in the case of Vince and his WWE it was either the option Shane and his wife or Stephanie and her husband. Triple H married a McMahon and that made him a valid candidate to replace Vince one day and after some time it became clear that Triple H will be the one leading WWE in the future.
Triple H respects the business, he wants to learn, it's obvious he takes things serious, he is probably great when it comes to the work in the office, but there is one important thing he doesn't have what Vince has and that's creativity and that's why WWE's future looks lame.

Even Triple H knows that but he knows that he is now in this important position for life so he tries to cover it up and takes shortcuts and that's great athletes doing great in-ring work, sadly that's all he can offer because pro wrestling isn't just in-ring work. So he books tournament after tournament, creates title after title, makes international versions of NXT/WWE and then books more tournaments between those versions so the only storyline is who will win that tournament. In 5 years WWE will not have any real storylines and just look like the olympic games.

Vince maybe took Luke Gallows and gave him a shitty gimmick 12 years ago but at the same he took a bland wrestler in 1990 called Mark Calaway and made him the Undertaker, he tried. If Triple H were in charge back than he would make him a bland wrestler with trunks and call him Mike Callahan and then he would later hire Glen Jacobs and call him Gene Jefferson and then Callahan and Jefferson wrestle for no reason other than who would advance in the finals to compete in some international finals bullshit instead of a Taker vs. his brother feud.

There is only one thing worse than watching a wrestling show with crappy gimmicks and crapy storylines is a wrestling show with no gimmicks and no storylines. Vince had a vision (whether we like it or not) very few had but what Triple H does everyone can do, hire great athletes who wrestle great matches in tournaments.
wrestle wrestle wrestle tournamemnts tournaments uk italy germany tournaments wrestle uk tournaments germany:
that's what WWE will look like with Triple H.
festus was a great gimmick to me. rather watch him then than what he is now. characters are what professional wrestling is all about.
 
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