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There's a guy at my work that I know absolutely wouldn't put snakes down his pants for $100. He's the guy I really want to see put snakes down his pants though. There is someone that I know would do it, and it'd still be pretty fun for the snakes, but it just wouldn't be the same. I'm not even going to waste my time with the first guy. That doesn't mean he wouldn't be the best option or that if I had my druthers it wouldn't be him.
You know I totally get what you are saying lol.


We all know it would be much less headaches just doing Rock vs Hogan especially since Rock was a Hulkamaniac who grew up in the business.

Vince just bypassed that booking nightmare.
 

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Yeah, people are confusing there being no formal sit-down meeting where Vince really tried hard to pitch the idea to Austin with "well, Austin would be our first pick, but we know he won't do it" and maybe an informal "It'd have to be the Stunner clean," "Hogan won't go with that," "Well, we don't have anything else to talk about."
 

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Discussion Starter #83 (Edited)
You know I totally get what you are saying lol.


We all know it would be much less headaches just doing Rock vs Hogan especially since Rock was a Hulkamaniac who grew up in the business.

Vince just bypassed that booking nightmare.

...by going with Hall/Austin, a plan that Steve was strongly against from the start?!….

Ok.

..I'm just wondering why didn't Vince "bypass the booking nightmare" instead of booking Bret/Shawn at survivor series(knowing the history between the two).
 

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...by going with Hall/Austin, a plan that Steve was strongly against from the start?!….

Ok.

..I'm just wondering why didn't Vince "bypass the booking nightmare" instead of booking Bret/Shawn at survivor series(knowing the history between the two).
Well, let's look at how Vince may have seen this using Bret/Shawn even as an example for Hogan/Rock. The promotion of the match was to decide the best ever. At the time, The Rock obviously had more longevity and Austin turning heel the year prior was a sign that he was trying to reinvigorate his position as number one.

However, Rock was the younger star and was becoming mainstream. If you are dubbing the match to decide the best ever it makes more sense to go with the younger guy who would be around longer(although what happened couldn't have actually been predicted as Rock would soon not be full time anymore a year later).

Vince's "next big thing" was Lesnar as we saw Rock was used to put him over. Now, if we are thinking long term, Vince could have seen it as Lesnar needing to go over Rock being the bigger long term deal than Austin who would be a one shot ppv blockbuster(in his mind anyways).

Now this is the thing that broke the camel's back for Austin when he was being used to put over Lesnar on a tv match. It was kind of disrespectful unless Austin was promised the money making match down the line and that wasn't really in the plans as we saw with Hogan not getting his expected return match.

The Bret/Shawn match to me at Survivor Series being booked was always Vince wanting HBK taking the belt off Shawn regardless on the big 4 ppv because it would devalue him as a main event guy in his mind going to WCW. Shawn was primed as the "leader of the new generation" after beating Bret at WM 12, but that win was still tainted because of the overtime.

You avoid HBK beating Bret and then you have the chance of Bischoff bragging how Bret was not defeated really by either Austin or HBK who were now the plan for WM 14. It didn't matter about Bret's feelings afterwards because he was gone in weeks anyways. The difference with Austin is you had to deal with him being apart of the roster even after WM 18.

If you are Vince it is better to have Austin be pissed about a Hall match where you can just give him the shovel on Hall than having to deal with Austin's ego with clashing with Hogan's ego. You already had to deal with Austin being challenged for his top spot from The Rock and now you had to deal with Hogan coming back to steal his thunder too. The guy who Austin fended off the WCW train from running roughshod over WWE.

Also using Bret as an example, we heard the drama with him and Hogan in terms of what Mcmahon was telling both men. Vince being put into that spot again between Hogan and Austin would be even worse. Not saying this is what the reason for how things went down, but I can see the possibility with knowing how Vince dealt with past circumstances surrounding his top stars and dream matches.

I will say this, you market Hogan vs Austin as the match to decide the best ever the whole thing changes legacy wise. With Rock vs Hogan it was more past vs. present, but to many Hogan vs Austin may have really been the match to decide the goat. This is not a slight on Rock or to say he is not a goat, but at that time Austin and Hogan were more at the tail end than Rock who was younger and potentially had another decade at least to surpass them(although his ring days were short after as well, but at the time no one saw it coming to an end like that so soon).

On a different note, as I watched that Andre documentary it seemed that Vince felt regret for how he treated Andre in his last days as he felt maybe Andre felt Vince didnt' stay loyal to him. I figured that is perhaps why we continue to see Taker as a dominant force as Taker stuck with him through thick and thin.
 

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Discussion Starter #86
Vince's "next big thing" was Lesnar as we saw Rock was used to put him over. Now, if we are thinking long term, Vince could have seen it as Lesnar needing to go over Rock being the bigger long term deal than Austin who would be a one shot ppv blockbuster(in his mind anyways).

Now this is the thing that broke the camel's back for Austin when he was being used to put over Lesnar on a tv match. It was kind of disrespectful unless Austin was promised the money making match down the line and that wasn't really in the plans as we saw with Hogan not getting his expected return match.
Austin jobbing to Lesnar on TV was Vince's way of punishing Austin for what he said about the creative on Byte This. Was it bullshit? yes, but Vince had done this to lot of his stars. Hogan jobbed to Brock clean on TV. Taker lost to rookie Maven on TV. Rock lost to AL Snow on TV...but regardless, you can't just walk away.

I believe Austin taking a back seat to a returning HHH was his biggest problem...he saw through all that bs and knew that HHH and his wife(head of creative) were not about business, they were only about themselves. During those times Austin had a big argument with Vince once about HHH attending creative meetings, he thought talent shouldn't be there, and he's right. Him and Rock didn't like the way HHH and Stephanie buried Jericho in the build up to WM, after they spent 5 months trying to turn him into a main-event player.

The only reason Rock put over Lesnar is because he was leaving, and they needed someone to take his place as the top guy. They were planning on booking the rematch on a bigger stage, but Rock turning heel changed everything.


Hogan/Lesnar II was supposed to happen at Survivor Series, but Hogan vetoed it, cause he thought there was no money in him losing again.


The Bret/Shawn match to me at Survivor Series being booked was always Vince wanting HBK taking the belt off Shawn regardless on the big 4 ppv because it would devalue him as a main event guy in his mind going to WCW. Shawn was primed as the "leader of the new generation" after beating Bret at WM 12, but that win was still tainted because of the overtime.

You avoid HBK beating Bret and then you have the chance of Bischoff bragging how Bret was not defeated really by either Austin or HBK who were now the plan for WM 14. It didn't matter about Bret's feelings afterwards because he was gone in weeks anyways. The difference with Austin is you had to deal with him being apart of the roster even after WM 18.
Bret basically told Vince he would put anyone over(including Steve Austin), but Shawn.

Simply put, if Vince saw money in Russo/Cornette he would've booked it. It don't matter to him, as long as he get money.

If you are Vince it is better to have Austin be pissed about a Hall match where you can just give him the shovel on Hall than having to deal with Austin's ego with clashing with Hogan's ego. You already had to deal with Austin being challenged for his top spot from The Rock and now you had to deal with Hogan coming back to steal his thunder too. The guy who Austin fended off the WCW train from running roughshod over WWE.
Doesn't make sense.


Also using Bret as an example, we heard the drama with him and Hogan in terms of what Mcmahon was telling both men. Vince being put into that spot again between Hogan and Austin would be even worse. Not saying this is what the reason for how things went down, but I can see the possibility with knowing how Vince dealt with past circumstances surrounding his top stars and dream matches.
Trust me Vince lives for this type of heat. He did it with Hogan/Michaels and he did it with Rock/Cena. He don't care about them hating each others guts as long as he get his big money match.


I will say this, you market Hogan vs Austin as the match to decide the best ever the whole thing changes legacy wise. With Rock vs Hogan it was more past vs. present, but to many Hogan vs Austin may have really been the match to decide the goat. This is not a slight on Rock or to say he is not a goat, but at that time Austin and Hogan were more at the tail end than Rock who was younger and potentially had another decade at least to surpass them(although his ring days were short after as well, but at the time no one saw it coming to an end like that so soon).
I don't know about that. I mean, Rock and Hogan stood face to face in Chicago(the best wrestling city in the world) for 20 minutes and the crowd was losing their shit from start to finish, , even if you look back at the IWC reaction back then, despite the pure hatred toward Rock, most members were pro this match.

They went to Toronto(another great wrestling city), and they blew the roof of skydome.

Austin/Hogan in 1998 would've been HUGE, but in 2002, Rock/Hogan was the biggest money match there was.
 

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Austin jobbing to Lesnar on TV was Vince's way of punishing Austin for what he said about the creative on Byte This. Was it bullshit? yes, but Vince had done this to lot of his stars. Hogan jobbed to Brock clean on TV. Taker lost to rookie Maven on TV. Rock lost to AL Snow on TV...but regardless, you can't just walk away.

I believe Austin taking a back seat to a returning HHH was his biggest problem...he saw through all that bs and knew that HHH and his wife(head of creative) were not about business, they were only about themselves. During those times Austin had a big argument with Vince once about HHH attending creative meetings, he thought talent shouldn't be there, and he's right. Him and Rock didn't like the way HHH and Stephanie buried Jericho in the build up to WM, after they spent 5 months trying to turn him into a main-event player.

The only reason Rock put over Lesnar is because he was leaving, and they needed someone to take his place as the top guy. They were planning on booking the rematch on a bigger stage, but Rock turning heel changed everything.


Hogan/Lesnar II was supposed to happen at Survivor Series, but Hogan vetoed it, cause he thought there was no money in him losing again.




Bret basically told Vince he would put anyone over(including Steve Austin), but Shawn.

Simply put, if Vince saw money in Russo/Cornette he would've booked it. It don't matter to him, as long as he get money.



Doesn't make sense.




Trust me Vince lives for this type of heat. He did it with Hogan/Michaels and he did it with Rock/Cena. He don't care about them hating each others guts as long as he get his big money match.




I don't know about that. I mean, Rock and Hogan stood face to face in Chicago(the best wrestling city in the world) for 20 minutes and the crowd was losing their shit from start to finish, , even if you look back at the IWC reaction back then, despite the pure hatred toward Rock, most members were pro this match.

They went to Toronto(another great wrestling city), and they blew the roof of skydome.

Austin/Hogan in 1998 would've been HUGE, but in 2002, Rock/Hogan was the biggest money match there was.
I don't agree that Austin losing to Lesnar was punishment. They were grooming Lesnar that summer and it was no accident he won the title within 6 months and defeating Hogan, Rock, and Austin. They saw Lesnar as Angle on roids for lack of a better word. It took Angle 12 months and it took Lesnar(who had the real look Vince loves and was a heavyweight he likes in vein of Hogan) half that time. That was completely the plan.

Was Austin losing also salt thrown on the wound, yes, but that wasn't the main objective. You have Rock go over Hogan as "the best ever" and then at the next biggest show of the year The Rock ends up putting over "The Next Big Thing". In the big picture of it, I could see Vince seeing Austin not fitting in this narrative and then add his hold ups about bookings.

You may have a point that HHH may have been a bigger issue for Austin, but here's the thing. If they went with HHH vs Austin which I believe would have been better anyways than the Jericho match, Austin would still most likely have to put over HHH as the face. How do we get there after just turning Austin face? It would be nonsensical to turn him back heel and that wouldn't work anyways in Toronto.

As for Hogan/Lesnar II it basically comes down to Hogan wanting job back from Lesnar along with money. Same thing.

As you said, Bret said he would put anyone over. So if it wasn't about Vince thinking long term with HBK/Austin with having HBK take the belt off Bret for stock value then why didn't Vince just do Austin vs Bret with Austin taking the belt on RAW?

That would have bolstered ratings and it would give a satisfactory end to their feud with Austin getting the belt. He didn't do this because there was a long term plan to have Austin go over HBK and to build back HBK as a the main heel. Vince cared more about having HBK topple his perceived #1 by WCW.

I wasn't convinced otherwise by you stating what I said didn't make sense. I'll make it shorter and more concise. Austin wasn't thrilled that Hogan came back and for good reason. If Vince knew this and he knew Rock's attitude was the exact opposite why would he not just go with the person that was positive? Just avoid the headache. The Rock even admitted that Vince told him that there was a mixed response to Hogan and NWO coming back which means he could have told Austin before Rock which was a person who didn't like the idea.

Yes, Vince doesn't care if guys hate each other SOMETIMES, but in certain situations there could be business issues. Vince of the early 90's is not the same as Vince from the Attitude Era or even now where he would just bring real life issues to the on screen product.

If it were in the Attitude Era or now, Vince would have booked Hogan vs Hart. However, the times are different. How would he force Hogan to job to Bret if he didn't want to? Vince just avoided that mess with his future top star and his top star who made his company in 1993.

The same scenario again. Why get into a mess with the star who brought you back from the dead in the late 90's for your former top star who made the company in the 80's when you know there could be serious issues. It's a respect thing sort of as these guys aren't your ordinary stars. These guys are GOATS you are dealing with.

Rock/Cena was a different beast because it could have been Vince talking through Cena when Cena was calling him out for leaving for Hollywood. Also, Cena was in the shadow of Austin and Rock as their heir apparent.

Hogan vs Austin is a different beast because you have basically the two guys that made your most successful eras(not including Rock of course). The fact they could have easily done Hogan vs Austin at WM 19 instead of Vince says it all too. Austin just didn't want to work with the guy around those times for whatever reason(I think it had to do with a real clash of legacies being questioned on who really ruled the roost in terms of all-time).

I was at WM 18, I KNOW how electric that crowd was. Hogan had the advantage over Rock or Austin in that building. Fans in Toronto didn't see Hogan on such a big ppv since 1990. It was like Hogan's second appearance in Toronto since fans saw him leave in 1993. If I'm correct Toronto never saw Hogan live since February of 1992 when he teamed up with Piper to face Sid and Flair at Maple Leaf Gardens until a WCW Nitro around WM 15 in 1999. Look Hogan gets cheered as a heel in the promo below.


We know how much Austin protects his image in comparison to The Rock. I would not be surprised if this was partly why Austin didn't like the idea of facing Hogan although I know Austin fans will roast me for this(and I am a HUGE Austin mark with the best of them).

The Rock was just the better fit imo for that time of the match taking place. Now say if it was 1998 or even 1999 we have a different story because Austin was hotter at the time and probably not as worried about his positioning. By 2002, he had Rock to deal with and HHH who got that crazy ovation at the MSG Raw.

His mind must have been going overtime on how to protect his standing and image. He gets booed in Toronto like Rock did and I think it comes off differently than for Rock. The Rock was booed before and beloved at the same time. Austin originally like that in late 1996 and parts of 1997, but not how The Rock was in late 98 and 99.
 

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Discussion Starter #88
Austin just didn't want to work with the guy around those times for whatever reason(I think it had to do with a real clash of legacies being questioned on who really ruled the roost in terms of all-time).
Again, everyone keep saying that Austin didn't want anything to do with Hogan yet years later Austin said it loud and clear that Hogan was the guy that he needed to work with.

Every guy involved said that the match was never in the book. It was always Rock/Hogan.

Saying that Vince never approached Austin because he knew it would cause a nightmare is non sense. The is business. He only care about money. If he really had Austin/Hogan in mind he would've atleast give a try by pitching to both of them(which he did with Hogan and Rock).

I'm not gonna tell you what to believe, but it was clear as day that it was always been Rock/Hogan. JR, Rock, Austin, Hogan they have all confirmed this, the only the guy that say otherwise is the guy that started the rumor in the first place and that is Meltzer.
 

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Again, everyone keep saying that Austin didn't want anything to do with Hogan yet years later Austin said it loud and clear that Hogan was the guy that he needed to work with.

Every guy involved said that the match was never in the book. It was always Rock/Hogan.

Saying that Vince never approached Austin because he knew it would cause a nightmare is non sense. The is business. He only care about money. If he really had Austin/Hogan in mind he would've atleast give a try by pitching to both of them(which he did with Hogan and Rock).

I'm not gonna tell you what to believe, but it was clear as day that it was always been Rock/Hogan. JR, Rock, Austin, Hogan they have all confirmed this, the only the guy that say otherwise is the guy that started the rumor in the first place and that is Meltzer.
Trust me I've seen and heard all angles on this and even heard about the original rumor that started this whole debate. Austin ALSO stated his mind wasn't right around that time too. Let's say the match wasn't in the book, does that negate that Austin couldn't possibly not want to deal with Hogan and his politics?

This is all conjecture and saying that Vince didn't want the headache is nonsense because it's business flies out the window when Hogan went on tv and basically tried to force Austin to do the match and it still never happened. Austin can say a different story years later, but at the time it could have been a different story. If Vince could force these two to make money don't you think all he had to do was book them? He didn't because of the headache.

Austin also said he believed he and Hogan would clash in style and not mesh, but when did that ever stop Vince from booking a money match? Take into account this is the same boss who told Jericho that it didn't matter if his match would suck because it was suppose to.

My thing is if Vince REALLY wanted to book the match he would have regardless from the WM 18 match which is what I'm really getting at. The match didn't happen because Austin didn't want to do it. That doesn't negate anything about whether or not he was booked for WM 18.

Or let's say if Vince really wanted to do HBK vs Rock could he book it? He just wouldn't force the issue although that match has money written all over it. Rock wouldn't go for it no matter how much Vince tried to by the talk about their tension and history. This is not so far out there to conclude that originally Austin wanted nothing to do with Hogan. I'm not saying this is why for sure why Rock vs Hogan was booked, but it is a possibility at WM 18 time frame.
 

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Austin jobbing to Lesnar on TV was Vince's way of punishing Austin for what he said about the creative on Byte This. Was it bullshit? yes, but Vince had done this to lot of his stars. Hogan jobbed to Brock clean on TV. Taker lost to rookie Maven on TV. Rock lost to AL Snow on TV...but regardless, you can't just walk away.

I believe Austin taking a back seat to a returning HHH was his biggest problem...he saw through all that bs and knew that HHH and his wife(head of creative) were not about business, they were only about themselves. During those times Austin had a big argument with Vince once about HHH attending creative meetings, he thought talent shouldn't be there, and he's right. Him and Rock didn't like the way HHH and Stephanie buried Jericho in the build up to WM, after they spent 5 months trying to turn him into a main-event player.

The only reason Rock put over Lesnar is because he was leaving, and they needed someone to take his place as the top guy. They were planning on booking the rematch on a bigger stage, but Rock turning heel changed everything.


Hogan/Lesnar II was supposed to happen at Survivor Series, but Hogan vetoed it, cause he thought there was no money in him losing again.




Bret basically told Vince he would put anyone over(including Steve Austin), but Shawn.

Simply put, if Vince saw money in Russo/Cornette he would've booked it. It don't matter to him, as long as he get money.



Doesn't make sense.




Trust me Vince lives for this type of heat. He did it with Hogan/Michaels and he did it with Rock/Cena. He don't care about them hating each others guts as long as he get his big money match.




I don't know about that. I mean, Rock and Hogan stood face to face in Chicago(the best wrestling city in the world) for 20 minutes and the crowd was losing their shit from start to finish, , even if you look back at the IWC reaction back then, despite the pure hatred toward Rock, most members were pro this match.

They went to Toronto(another great wrestling city), and they blew the roof of skydome.

Austin/Hogan in 1998 would've been HUGE, but in 2002, Rock/Hogan was the biggest money match there was.
Did Rock confirm he didn't like how he and Stephanie were burying Jericho? Wow the egos of those two!
 

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Discussion Starter #91 (Edited)
Did Rock confirm he didn't like how he and Stephanie were burying Jericho? Wow the egos of those two!
He alluded to it. That was years ago when he did the press tour for Scorpion King. He was on unscripted With Chris Connelly, I believe, and he basically said that there are certain talent that are in higher positions, are insecure, and only looking out for themselves, they don't give a damn about business. A day or two later, all the dirtsheet confirmed that HHH was pretty upset about Rock's comments(which is a big indication). Then about a week later after Rock said what he said, from out of nowhere, Shawn Michaels said this on TV:


9:10


Btw, on that same interview, Rock said he consider Jericho and Austin to be two of his closest friends in the business.
 

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Austin vs Hogan should've been reserved for either Summerslam (second-biggest PPV) or Survivor Series (held at MSG that year.) Rock was just too hot at the time, and his presence in Hollywood attracted much more viewers than Austin could in wrestling alone. It was a wise business move by Vince to do so.
 

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He alluded to it. That was years ago when he did the press tour for Scorpion King. He was on unscripted With Chris Connelly, I believe, and he basically said that there are certain talent that are in higher positions, are insecure, and only looking out for themselves, they don't give a damn about business. A day or two later, all the dirtsheet confirmed that HHH was pretty upset about Rock's comments(which is a big indication). Then about a week later after Rock said what he said, from out of nowhere, Shawn Michaels said this on TV:


9:10


Btw, on that same interview, Rock said he consider Jericho and Austin to be two of his closest friends in the business.
Oh wow thanks for the info. Rock was right. To this day Steph and small extension HHH are out for themselves but it was probably worse back then. But Vince is an idiot, he should know Rock and Austin were his biggest draws meaning bringing more money for him. I hope back then those two didn't try to mess up Rock. I doubt it though.
 

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Discussion Starter #94
Oh wow thanks for the info. Rock was right. To this day Steph and small extension HHH are out for themselves but it was probably worse back then. But Vince is an idiot, he should know Rock and Austin were his biggest draws meaning bringing more money for him. I hope back then those two didn't try to mess up Rock. I doubt it though.
Rock was an untouchable at that point. He was the company's biggest star and he was making Vince a shit load of money by not only wrestling, but making movies as well. Austin however got shafted and pushed to the side for a returning HHH, who was having a tough time getting over as a babyface.
 

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He alluded to it. That was years ago when he did the press tour for Scorpion King. He was on unscripted With Chris Connelly, I believe, and he basically said that there are certain talent that are in higher positions, are insecure, and only looking out for themselves, they don't give a damn about business. A day or two later, all the dirtsheet confirmed that HHH was pretty upset about Rock's comments(which is a big indication). Then about a week later after Rock said what he said, from out of nowhere, Shawn Michaels said this on TV:


9:10


Btw, on that same interview, Rock said he consider Jericho and Austin to be two of his closest friends in the business.
Sounds more like Off The Record on TSN.
 

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Austin vs Hogan should've been reserved for either Summerslam (second-biggest PPV) or Survivor Series (held at MSG that year.) Rock was just too hot at the time, and his presence in Hollywood attracted much more viewers than Austin could in wrestling alone. It was a wise business move by Vince to do so.
Madison Square Garden with Hogan vs Austin seemed like no brainer. It was rumored Vince was thinking that for 1998 at SummerSlam. The crowd would have been crazy to see.
 

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Madison Square Garden with Hogan vs Austin seemed like no brainer. It was rumored Vince was thinking that for 1998 at SummerSlam. The crowd would have been crazy to see.
Come to think of it, Hogan never appeared in the other Manias held at MSG after WM1. Mania X I get it, due to his leave for WCW, but Mania XX? Vince couldn't arrange his biggest draw to have a match on his biggest PPV on the same venue he made millions from?
 

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Come to think of it, Hogan never appeared in the other Manias held at MSG after WM1. Mania X I get it, due to his leave for WCW, but Mania XX? Vince couldn't arrange his biggest draw to have a match on his biggest PPV on the same venue he made millions from?
Yeah I remember some people were expecting Hogan vs Austin at WM XX and even throwing in Bruno Sammartino as special ref. Nothing of the sort, but that looks pretty damn appealing on the marquee for something called 20 Years In The Making.

Steve Austin ends up getting used in the special ref role for Goldberg and Lesnar. It's not like WWE didn't hear about the rumors and possibly couldn't try to get it done although there was talk Hognan hated his WM 19 pay out.
 

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Yeah I remember some people were expecting Hogan vs Austin at WM XX and even throwing in Bruno Sammartino as special ref. Nothing of the sort, but that looks pretty damn appealing on the marquee for something called 20 Years In The Making.

Steve Austin ends up getting used in the special ref role for Goldberg and Lesnar. It's not like WWE didn't hear about the rumors and possibly couldn't try to get it done although there was talk Hognan hated his WM 19 pay out.
Austin was suppose to face Vince at XX and Coach at Taboo Tuesday 2005 (there was build for it)
 
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