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Nah, the thrilling, fast-paced action is what many of the wrestling fans prefer to watch nowadays (especially over the past several years too).

It's best if the vocal minority just accepts that fact and gets used to it since that style won't be going away anytime soon. They need to get over with the new(er) change in modern wrestling, especially complaining about something extremely trivial such as FLIPS ( )
But if this was what many fans want shouldn't places that thrive in that style be much bigger deals since this is what many fans want and only a minority dislikes? I know you're doing your new crusader for modern wrestling thing. But you really don't have a leg to stand if this is the argument you want to make. The reality is that the fans who adore NJPW, think the ROH pure tournament was some of the best stuff of 2020, and think Dynamite is the best weekly show are the actual vocal minority.

That doesn't mean you or anyone else shouldn't like what they like. But to pretend you're not the one in the actual vocal minority because the hardcore bubble tends to have similar opinions shows huge lack of awareness on your part.
 

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But if this was what many fans want shouldn't places that thrive in that style be much bigger deals since this is what many fans want and only a minority dislikes? I know you're doing your new crusader for modern wrestling thing. But you really don't have a leg to stand if this is the argument you want to make. The reality is that the fans who adore NJPW, think the ROH pure tournament was some of the best stuff of 2020, and think Dynamite is the best weekly show are the actual vocal minority.

That doesn't mean you or anyone else shouldn't like what they like. But to pretend you're not the one in the actual vocal minority because the hardcore bubble tends to have similar opinions shows huge lack of awareness on your part.
Let’s just say that IF we’re somehow in the vocal minority, then the intolerant anti-smarks are an ever smaller portion of the current wrestling audience :lol
 

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Let’s just say that IF we’re somehow in the vocal minority, then the intolerant anti-smarks are an ever smaller portion of the current wrestling audience
There's no IF though DC, you are in the vocal minority, there's nothing wrong with that, but the numbers back up that this version of wrestling that you prefer isn't exactly drawing in fans in droves. Your "get with the times and get over yourself grandpa" stance works well if we're discussing like video games. They're bringing in more money to the point it's the biggest form of entertainment and it has more people playing video games with ever.

But wrestling as of now is in a state where it's clearly a lot less popular than ever, but lucky enough that live TV is lucrative for the foreseeable future and international access is at an all time ease. That goes for the WWE at the top and everything under it so it's not just picking on the small guys.
 

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Well, I meant RAW and Smackdown. I see NXT as like a fan service within WWE to try and grab some of the indie/AEW type audience. Most of the talents have to change when they go to the main brands. And even Ricochet was toned down by WWE compared to the stuff he used to do. I mean, it's well known there are restrictions on what talent can and can't do there (the latest being knee slaps), Matt Cardona said the other day that WWE even tell them how much they can go out on the floor during a match.

If you book a compelling product, this style of match can easily work especially if it isn't the ONLY style - because you don't want it top to bottom. Even old school guys like Austin, Foley and Edge loved the Okada/Omega matches which had a lot of elaborate moments that felt like they could have been in Street Fighter or something.

Video games and comic books are huge with not just the kid demographic now, but even guys beyond 40 who grew up in the 80s and 90s. Look at how well the Marvel movies gross with guys dressed in costumes, even skinny kids like Tom Holland as Spiderman.

If the writing in wrestling was on the level of MCU stuff or the better TV serials, then it might draw more people back. TV writing is much better than it used to be and there is more choice, but wrestling hasn't upped its game and every product, from WWE to AEW, NJPW to AAA, is still full of plot holes and logic fails. In America, the quality of booking is more important than the actual content of the match IMO.

I mean, Smackdown ratings have been struggling even with Reigns on top. He looks like a Hollywood movie star and much of the narrative is built around him. Lashley vs. Drew is going to be two big, tough looking dudes and most people are saying it's the most uninspiring big match in a long time at WM. Even Lesnar, the most legit looking guy in all of wrestling, didn't exactly move the needle with ratings continuing to go down on average per year.

BTW, WCW's cruiserweight division was popular and a draw (Bischoff said they were the biggest attraction outside of the nWo/WCW angle). These were guys wearing colorful masks and costumes, most of them unable to speak English, doing 'flippy shit' and it made guys like Rey, Kidman and Juventud very well known.
Roman Reigns and Drew McIntyre don't draw because they're average at best promos and have the charisma of a container of laundry detergent. I like Bobby, and while he is believable and has menace, he lacks the charisma of guys like Cena and Batista who got over 15ish years ago. Asking why Roman never became a big star and can't draw is like asking why Test never became a big star.
 

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Still can't believe people watching from the outside care and actually argue about drawing power, ability and what sells.

Just watch what draws you. Who cares what a stranger, you don't know or will ever ever meet, likes or enjoys?

Because there has to be a wrestling business around for you to enjoy? And if the guys at the top arent drawing money or eyes it makes it much less likely theres gonna be one around in 10 years? Its not that hard.
 

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But if this was what many fans want shouldn't places that thrive in that style be much bigger deals since this is what many fans want and only a minority dislikes? I know you're doing your new crusader for modern wrestling thing. But you really don't have a leg to stand if this is the argument you want to make. The reality is that the fans who adore NJPW, think the ROH pure tournament was some of the best stuff of 2020, and think Dynamite is the best weekly show are the actual vocal minority.

That doesn't mean you or anyone else shouldn't like what they like. But to pretend you're not the one in the actual vocal minority because the hardcore bubble tends to have similar opinions shows huge lack of awareness on your part.
Speaking so much sense, as always. Thanks for taking the time to do what you do.

That was a work - Ospreay's spoken about in interviews. He contacted Vader after he started trashing him and Ricochet only for Leon to say "we could really make some money with this kid". Unfortunately nothing came of it.
Yeah, of course nothing came of it. It sucked. There really wasn’t money to be made off it, lol. I love Vader, but he was a crazy bastard at the end of it.

Because there has to be a wrestling business around for you to enjoy? And if the guys at the top arent drawing money or eyes it makes it much less likely theres gonna be one around in 10 years? Its not that hard.
Bingo. It’s crazy how some people try to guilt you for caring about whether something you enjoy survives.

It’s like telling people with stock they shouldn’t care about news around their investments. Or telling someone while they’re watching a television series that they shouldn’t care if it gets renewed. Lol, wot?
 

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Discussion Starter #69
Fools were saying the same crap about HBK in 94 and Styles in 06. Sometimes people need time to appreciate greatness...
The difference is Styles and Michaels are two of the greatest storytellers of all time. The rest of these generic AEW and NXT CAWs don't compare because they can do a full gymnastics routine.
 

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Shawn Michaels and AJ Styles are both noted for their ability to sell. With HBK, there was potential threat of him overdoing himself and making it harder to draw because you’ve seen so much of the shit. It was a valid point.

Jim Cornette tells an amazing story about Ray Stevens & Pat Patterson in California. They went out there and stole the show. Amazing tag match. They went to the back and the promoter said “Nice work. NEVER do that again.” They were like “Why?” and he was like “I have to run here when you’re gone, and who the fuck is going to follow that?”

Sometimes it is better to tell the right story and not the BEST story for future business.
 

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Because there has to be a wrestling business around for you to enjoy? And if the guys at the top arent drawing money or eyes it makes it much less likely theres gonna be one around in 10 years? Its not that hard.
What's that got to do with caring about who draws or not? Shawn Michaels used to be lambasted for being a poor drawing champion in the 90s. Who gives a shit? He was also one of, if not the most entertaining wrestler around at the time.

Who the fuck in WWE draws any eyes to the product?

Aren't they getting record low numbers on a road to Wrestlemania?

Yet, they make more money than they EVER have. Wrestling isn't a dying business and it isn't going to die in our life time.

So again, who REALLY gives a shit about who draws, the ability of said wrestler or what actually sells if you don't enjoy what you watch.

People care too much about the littlest things in wrestling that don't concern a fan that they let it cloud their own judgement. FFS, you have literal morons on this forum who base their opinion on AEW (for example) by listening to ANOTHER mans opinion of said company and it's shows.

Just watch what you enjoy - who cares if Donald from Massachusetts, who you'll never meet, thinks it's shit and doesn't "Move a needle"
 

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What's that got to do with caring about who draws or not? Shawn Michaels used to be lambasted for being a poor drawing champion in the 90s. Who gives a shit? He was also one of, if not the most entertaining wrestler around at the time.

Who the fuck in WWE draws any eyes to the product?

Aren't they getting record low numbers on a road to Wrestlemania?

Yet, they make more money than they EVER have. Wrestling isn't a dying business and it isn't going to die in our life time.

So again, who REALLY gives a shit about who draws, the ability of said wrestler or what actually sells if you don't enjoy what you watch.

People care too much about the littlest things in wrestling that don't concern a fan that they let it cloud their own judgement. FFS, you have literal morons on this forum who base their opinion on AEW (for example) by listening to ANOTHER mans opinion of said company and it's shows.

Just watch what you enjoy - who cares if Donald from Massachusetts, who you'll never meet, thinks it's shit and doesn't "Move a needle"
You are deliberately being obtuse here. If the company you like goes out of business, then you can’t watch or “enjoy” it anymore. You should be hoping that they do well. There is nothing wrong with wrestling fans being interested in the business.
 

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What's that got to do with caring about who draws or not? Shawn Michaels used to be lambasted for being a poor drawing champion in the 90s. Who gives a shit? He was also one of, if not the most entertaining wrestler around at the time.

Who the fuck in WWE draws any eyes to the product?

Aren't they getting record low numbers on a road to Wrestlemania?

Yet, they make more money than they EVER have. Wrestling isn't a dying business and it isn't going to die in our life time.

So again, who REALLY gives a shit about who draws, the ability of said wrestler or what actually sells if you don't enjoy what you watch.

People care too much about the littlest things in wrestling that don't concern a fan that they let it cloud their own judgement. FFS, you have literal morons on this forum who base their opinion on AEW (for example) by listening to ANOTHER mans opinion of said company and it's shows.

Just watch what you enjoy - who cares if Donald from Massachusetts, who you'll never meet, thinks it's shit and doesn't "Move a needle"
Why are you talking about WWE?
 

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Is this not a wrestling forum?

WWE doesnt have to draw. They can wipe their butt with money for the next decade. AEW will obviously be around as long as Daddy Khan wants to fund it, but if you want it to be a serious company in 5 years, it needs to do better than 700K.
 

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Roman Reigns and Drew McIntyre don't draw because they're average at best promos and have the charisma of a container of laundry detergent. I like Bobby, and while he is believable and has menace, he lacks the charisma of guys like Cena and Batista who got over 15ish years ago. Asking why Roman never became a big star and can't draw is like asking why Test never became a big star.
Roman and Mcintyre both draw in double to triple the fans that Kenny Omega does as the world champion.
 

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Klitschko said:
Roman and Mcintyre both draw in double to triple the fans that Kenny Omega does as the world champion.
Swap them around and little to nothing changes. As @The XL 2 says, that is stronger brand beating younger brand. It's like saying Baron Corbin is a bigger draw than Jon Moxley as he's on the better rated show, but Moxley was in WWE on shows that were rating higher than they are now. There are no mega-stars or mega-draws right now, everything is about the brand.

So, Omega would be part of 2.1m rated Smackdown shows and 1.7m rated RAW shows. I guess Reigns could bump AEW ratings a little for the novelty but ultimately I can't see him moving the needle in any major way either.
 

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Swap them around and little to nothing changes. As @The XL 2 says, that is stronger brand beating younger brand. It's like saying Baron Corbin is a bigger draw than Jon Moxley as he's on the better rated show, but Moxley was in WWE on shows that were rating higher than they are now. There are no mega-stars or mega-draws right now, everything is about the brand.

So, Omega would be part of 2.1m rated Smackdown shows and 1.7m rated RAW shows. I guess Reigns could bump AEW ratings a little for the novelty but ultimately I can't see him moving the needle in any major way either.
The problem with this is it's a copout and self defeatist attitude. On one fans in our bubble will talk about how AEW is the hottest thing in wrestling with the hottest stars and angles, it's what fans are really clamoring for. But then when numbers get brought up suddenly it's a "well brand recognition yada yada" shit.

Is AEW the young hot promotion that's reinvigorating the wrestling scene and bringing allegedly jaded fans back into the fold like it's more pro fans say. Or is it the current in a long line of fad promotions that hardcore fans started backing and overblowing in the never ending quest to show how much they hate Vince?
 

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WWE doesnt have to draw. They can wipe their butt with money for the next decade. AEW will obviously be around as long as Daddy Khan wants to fund it, but if you want it to be a serious company in 5 years, it needs to do better than 700K.
Why does it?

If it's around in 5 years doing 500k, I wouldnt give a toss. If it still entertains me in 5 years I'll be watching.

If TNT happen to be disappointed with 500k and take it off the air. So be it. Then I guess I won't be watching wrestling. Big whoop.
 
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