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Of all idiots they give the world title to Osprey. That’s how shit wrestling has gotten.

To make it even worse, they ruined the best looking heavyweight title with some plastic anime looking title.
I mostly agree, especially about the hideous new World Title. Osprey isn't ready for this either imo but as others have said he hwas adapted his style to be more "heavyweight" and his character work has improved quite a bit. I still think it was a year too early to give him this though
 

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I mostly agree, especially about the hideous new World Title. Osprey isn't ready for this either imo but as others have said he hwas adapted his style to be more "heavyweight" and his character work has improved quite a bit. I still think it was a year too early to give him this though
Even if he did change his style, I still would’ve not made him champion until he did something meaningful and memorable. When Styles and Omega became champs there was a special reason why. They were sensations.

Giving the title to anyone and playing hot potato with the title is not how you get legitimacy. It doesn’t helped that they retired one of the most decorative lineages for a plastic toy looking belt. Having Kota and Osprey as the first two champions is not a good start for the new title at all.
 
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He also looks like Tom Hardy which is why I think he could also be a big star in America some day coupled with his heel charisma.

Ospreay still does some 'video game' stuff but nothing as eccentric as he used to. To be honest, people need to get over this and realise modern non-WWE styles are maybe not what they grew up with. NJPW and AEW main event styles share some similarities in that way, especially with Kenny on top.

This is the finish to Ospreay vs. Ibushi (until NJPW does one of its infamous DMCAs). You might see a similarity to Kenny with his V Trigger style strike before the high impact finisher.

To be more honest, people who want more flippy/video game stuff need to get over it and realize that stuff is not a draw and if they want successful and growing companies, that stuff needs to be phased out and quickly.
 

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Two Sheds said:
To be more honest, people who want more flippy/video game stuff need to get over it and realize that stuff is not a draw and if they want successful and growing companies, that stuff needs to be phased out and quickly.
Citation needed. New Japan have sold up to 40,000 tickets at Tokyo Domes with 'video game' (or anime) inspired guys like Kenny, Ibushi and Naito in prominent roles that involve elaborate moves and sequences that once upon a time would've been frowned upon.

The G1 Supercard drew 16,000-plus at MSG with many of these guys and The Elite in focus. Naito and Ibushi going crazy in a great match, the three-way ladder match for the ROH belt, Dragon Lee vs. Bandido vs. Taiji three way match for IWGP Jr., etc.

All In was the biggest non-WWE success in years with many of these guys on show.

Not that I think anything is a particularly huge draw anymore, but saying "that stuff is not a draw" needs citation.

I think fans are more interested in the booking of the product than the specific style(s) on display as long as it can excite them.

Any issues with AEW losing viewers more likely related to the overall booking style of the brand or other factors (ie. the year-on-year cable rating trends) than matches like Hangman/Kenny vs. the Bucks and Kenny vs. PAC.

AEW, New Japan, DDT, ROH, NOAH, DRAGON GATE, MLW, AAA and women's promotions all have elements of this, shall we say, animated style - not everyone on the rosters, but key performers in big matches. So perhaps WWE might be the only major that doesn't since it asks the talents to work a specific formula and matches are more regulated and scripted.

And let's face it, this modern style has been developing since the latter days of WCW with matches like 3 Count vs. Jung Dragons. Early TNA had a lot of it too.
 

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Citation needed. New Japan have sold up to 40,000 tickets at Tokyo Domes with 'video game' (or anime) inspired guys like Kenny, Ibushi and Naito in prominent roles that involve elaborate moves and sequences that once upon a time would've been frowned upon.

The G1 Supercard drew 16,000-plus at MSG with many of these guys and The Elite in focus. Naito and Ibushi going crazy in a great match, the three-way ladder match for the ROH belt, Dragon Lee vs. Bandido vs. Taiji three way match for IWGP Jr., etc.

All In was the biggest non-WWE success in years with many of these guys on show.

Not that I think anything is a particularly huge draw anymore, but saying "that stuff is not a draw" needs citation.

I think fans are more interested in the booking of the product than the specific style(s) on display as long as it can excite them.

Any issues with AEW losing viewers more likely related to the overall booking style of the brand or other factors (ie. the year-on-year cable rating trends) than matches like Hangman/Kenny vs. the Bucks and Kenny vs. PAC.

AEW, New Japan, DDT, ROH, NOAH, DRAGON GATE, MLW, AAA and women's promotions all have elements of this, shall we say, animated style - not everyone on the rosters, but key performers in big matches. So perhaps WWE might be the only major that doesn't since it asks the talents to work a specific formula and matches are more regulated and scripted.

And let's face it, this modern style has been developing since the latter days of WCW with matches like 3 Count vs. Jung Dragons. Early TNA had a lot of it too.
What do you mean WWE does not have it? NXT is full of it and as long as Flipochet is on the main roster, it is there too.

You basically said it when you said not anything is a huge draw anymore. People laugh at it, but a bunch of tiny dudes with unlimited hit points is going to get a chuckle out of some people, but you are not going to get people to buy into you as a character people care about if all you do is a gymnastics routine. And we have seen less and less people tune in as wrestling has catered to literal children on the WWE side and emotional children on the indy side.
 

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Two Sheds said:
What do you mean WWE does not have it? NXT is full of it and as long as Flipochet is on the main roster, it is there too.

You basically said it when you said not anything is a huge draw anymore. People laugh at it, but a bunch of tiny dudes with unlimited hit points is going to get a chuckle out of some people, but you are not going to get people to buy into you as a character people care about if all you do is a gymnastics routine. And we have seen less and less people tune in as wrestling has catered to literal children on the WWE side and emotional children on the indy side.
Well, I meant RAW and Smackdown. I see NXT as like a fan service within WWE to try and grab some of the indie/AEW type audience. Most of the talents have to change when they go to the main brands. And even Ricochet was toned down by WWE compared to the stuff he used to do. I mean, it's well known there are restrictions on what talent can and can't do there (the latest being knee slaps), Matt Cardona said the other day that WWE even tell them how much they can go out on the floor during a match.

If you book a compelling product, this style of match can easily work especially if it isn't the ONLY style - because you don't want it top to bottom. Even old school guys like Austin, Foley and Edge loved the Okada/Omega matches which had a lot of elaborate moments that felt like they could have been in Street Fighter or something.

Video games and comic books are huge with not just the kid demographic now, but even guys beyond 40 who grew up in the 80s and 90s. Look at how well the Marvel movies gross with guys dressed in costumes, even skinny kids like Tom Holland as Spiderman.

If the writing in wrestling was on the level of MCU stuff or the better TV serials, then it might draw more people back. TV writing is much better than it used to be and there is more choice, but wrestling hasn't upped its game and every product, from WWE to AEW, NJPW to AAA, is still full of plot holes and logic fails. In America, the quality of booking is more important than the actual content of the match IMO.

I mean, Smackdown ratings have been struggling even with Reigns on top. He looks like a Hollywood movie star and much of the narrative is built around him. Lashley vs. Drew is going to be two big, tough looking dudes and most people are saying it's the most uninspiring big match in a long time at WM. Even Lesnar, the most legit looking guy in all of wrestling, didn't exactly move the needle with ratings continuing to go down on average per year.

BTW, WCW's cruiserweight division was popular and a draw (Bischoff said they were the biggest attraction outside of the nWo/WCW angle). These were guys wearing colorful masks and costumes, most of them unable to speak English, doing 'flippy shit' and it made guys like Rey, Kidman and Juventud very well known.
 

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To be more honest, people who want more flippy/video game stuff need to get over it and realize that stuff is not a draw and if they want successful and growing companies, that stuff needs to be phased out and quickly.
What is a draw in 2021 ? If any of us knew that we'd be rich men.

To blame wrestling's decline in popularity on 'flippy wrestlers' is just as spurious as blaming a lack of midgets or roided up guys who wouldn't see their 40th birthdays. On another thread I read you blaming Cena, which is a view I'm not unsympathetic to, even though I've been to WWE house shows crammed full of families in Cena's gaudy merch. Cena was an undeniable draw but the long term creative bankruptcy of the face of the company dressing like an 8 year old and making pee-pee jokes has hurt wrestling, no doubt about it.

One of my first wrestling memories was at a live show where a maskless Liger was on the card. The crowd, full of pensioners and kids went crazy for his top rope moves, same as live crowds did for Ospreay 30 something years later. Flippy wrestlers aren't the problem, their over exposure on cards maybe so.

All moot with Ospreay now. He's bulked up and incorporates strikes and mat work far more into his style. Good thing to, because the damage he was doing to his neck and knees would have seen his body go the same way as Dynamite Kids.
 

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Storm breaker is such an awkward looking finish. Too much going on...
 
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Well, I meant RAW and Smackdown. I see NXT as like a fan service within WWE to try and grab some of the indie/AEW type audience. Most of the talents have to change when they go to the main brands. And even Ricochet was toned down by WWE compared to the stuff he used to do. I mean, it's well known there are restrictions on what talent can and can't do there (the latest being knee slaps), Matt Cardona said the other day that WWE even tell them how much they can go out on the floor during a match.
It is not really fan service if it is your lowest drawing program though is it? Fan service would be getting back the bulk of the audience that pastel color kiddie goof Cena and his ilk helped chase away for 15 years.

Some of the restrictions make complete sense and some are ridiculous. The scripted, wooden promos are awful, but making sure your underneath guys do not do every move possible so that when your main event guys come out everyone has already seen everything makes complete sense. The "get your shit in" guys are a major detriment today because they have no idea how to actually get over.

If you book a compelling product, this style of match can easily work especially if it isn't the ONLY style - because you don't want it top to bottom. Even old school guys like Austin, Foley and Edge loved the Okada/Omega matches which had a lot of elaborate moments that felt like they could have been in Street Fighter or something.

Video games and comic books are huge with not just the kid demographic now, but even guys beyond 40 who grew up in the 80s and 90s. Look at how well the Marvel movies gross with guys dressed in costumes, even skinny kids like Tom Holland as Spiderman.
OK, you might have read my comment as saying that I do not like video games or comics which I never said. The Marvel movies are great and I have written a lot on here before about comparing them to wrestling and how things can be bought into as long as they are logically consistent within their own universes. I can buy a guy like Spider-Man doing the things he does, but if he starts just flying with no explanation, that is weird right? If Hawkeye suddenly can go twenty minutes on his own against Thanos, we have a problem, yes? So even in a fantasy world, you still have to have rules and logic. At the end of the day, wrestling still is a sports-based thing set in our universe with our physics. Having a smaller underdog babyface get a shocking win over a larger opponent has its place in wrestling and could help get a guy over, but presenting tiny dudes as equals all the time is just not believable PLUS it takes away from the heat you could get for a guy by having them get that shocking win. Jungle Boy SHOULD be the guy in this position but does not stand out as long as Trashidy and the Buckaroos are being presented as threats to adults.

If the writing in wrestling was on the level of MCU stuff or the better TV serials, then it might draw more people back. TV writing is much better than it used to be and there is more choice, but wrestling hasn't upped its game and every product, from WWE to AEW, NJPW to AAA, is still full of plot holes and logic fails. In America, the quality of booking is more important than the actual content of the match IMO.
Yes, the creative and booking have SUCKED for a long time. I have long said this is WWE's biggest problem. You need characters you want to see and believe in. A bunch of dudes doing moves with bad creative is not compelling.

I mean, Smackdown ratings have been struggling even with Reigns on top. He looks like a Hollywood movie star and much of the narrative is built around him. Lashley vs. Drew is going to be two big, tough looking dudes and most people are saying it's the most uninspiring big match in a long time at WM. Even Lesnar, the most legit looking guy in all of wrestling, didn't exactly move the needle with ratings continuing to go down on average per year.
Yeah, like I just said, the creative and booking in WWE (along with the scripted/wooden) promos are their biggest issue. They just do not know how to build stars anymore.

BTW, WCW's cruiserweight division was popular and a draw (Bischoff said they were the biggest attraction outside of the nWo/WCW angle). These were guys wearing colorful masks and costumes, most of them unable to speak English, doing 'flippy shit' and it made guys like Rey, Kidman and Juventud very well known.
Well, I watched WCW at the time and enjoyed the cruiserweight stuff too. It is not just the "flippy moves" that are the issue. It is the extreme lack of selling and psychology that is the problem. Rey Mysterio is a once in a generation guy and his psychology is great. The other thing is when you have two cruiserweights in a match against each other, you can believe that they are going to be faster, but also that moves done to each other are going to be less effective because they are smaller. Going through what feels like a pre-planned routine with a lot of the guys now vs an actual athletic contest due to poor psychology is the larger issue.
 

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What is a draw in 2021 ? If any of us knew that we'd be rich men.

To blame wrestling's decline in popularity on 'flippy wrestlers' is just as spurious as blaming a lack of midgets or roided up guys who wouldn't see their 40th birthdays. On another thread I read you blaming Cena, which is a view I'm not unsympathetic to, even though I've been to WWE house shows crammed full of families in Cena's gaudy merch. Cena was an undeniable draw but the long term creative bankruptcy of the face of the company dressing like an 8 year old and making pee-pee jokes has hurt wrestling, no doubt about it.

One of my first wrestling memories was at a live show where a maskless Liger was on the card. The crowd, full of pensioners and kids went crazy for his top rope moves, same as live crowds did for Ospreay 30 something years later. Flippy wrestlers aren't the problem, their over exposure on cards maybe so.

All moot with Ospreay now. He's bulked up and incorporates strikes and mat work far more into his style. Good thing to, because the damage he was doing to his neck and knees would have seen his body go the same way as Dynamite Kids.
I feel like I have just answered most of this in my response to @3venflow. It is not just flippy moves in a vacuum, it is the lack of selling, psychology, and the ability to tell a story and create compelling characters that people want to see. It may be enough to get some people to want to see it live in person, but not long term on TV. We have seen that it IS possible to do both.
 

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I feel like I have just answered most of this in my response to @3venflow. It is not just flippy moves in a vacuum, it is the lack of selling, psychology, and the ability to tell a story and create compelling characters that people want to see. It may be enough to get some people to want to see it live in person, but not long term on TV. We have seen that it IS possible to do both.
But is it possible to do that contemporaneously allowing for the fact that social habits and media consumption have changed so much over the past few decades. We know channel surfing viewers are far more likely to change a channel sooner than they would 20 years ago, wrestling shows have to grip those viewers in a very short window and that's why they lean into the spectacular.

A guy who ticks a lot of boxes on psychology, story telling, promos - Moxley, gets buried by the self appointed gate keepers of good wrestling as 'Stone Cold Cosplay', 'garbage wrestler', 'looks like a plumber', despite the fact he's AEW's biggest draw as well as being a guy who would have thrived in the 90s. Reigns and McIntyre tick a lot of those boxes but they're not shifting the needle for WWE which continues to lose viewers.

To use one of VInce's adjectives, wrestling's seen as 'passe' - that's the struggle every promoter's fighting against.
 

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To be more honest, people who want more flippy/video game stuff need to get over it and realize that stuff is not a draw and if they want successful and growing companies, that stuff needs to be phased out and quickly.
Nah, the thrilling, fast-paced action is what many of the wrestling fans prefer to watch nowadays (especially over the past several years too).

It's best if the vocal minority just accepts that fact and gets used to it since that style won't be going away anytime soon. They need to get over with the new(er) change in modern wrestling, especially complaining about something extremely trivial such as FLIPS ( :lol )
 

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Even if he did change his style, I still would’ve not made him champion until he did something meaningful and memorable. When Styles and Omega became champs there was a special reason why. They were sensations.

Giving the title to anyone and playing hot potato with the title is not how you get legitimacy. It doesn’t helped that they retired one of the most decorative lineages for a plastic toy looking belt. Having Kota and Osprey as the first two champions is not a good start for the new title at all.
Except they didn't just give the title to anyone, they put it on William Peter Charles Ospreay - the greatest in ring performer of his generation and current Best in the World!
 

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Except they didn't just give the title to anyone, they put it on William Peter Charles Ospreay - the greatest in ring performer of his generation and current Best in the World!
Stop overrating garbage like him. He’s a monkey flipping trash in the ring devoid of any wrestling psychology.
 

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Stop overrating garbage like him. He’s a monkey flipping trash in the ring devoid of any wrestling psychology.
Send my regards to 2015.

Why does every detractor go on about psychology ? As if they understand it at an elite level. It just seems the laziest of put downs. Do people expect Ospreay and Hiromu to get in the ring, circle each other for five minutes, test of strength, hook up for five minutes, sell everything like they've been shot and then call everyone Daddy in the post match promo.
 

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Send my regards to 2015.

Why does every detractor go on about psychology ? As if they understand it at an elite level. It just seems the laziest of put downs. Do people expect Ospreay and Hiromu to get in the ring, circle each other for five minutes, test of strength, hook up for five minutes, sell everything like they've been shot and then call everyone Daddy in the post match promo.
Your perception of psychology is fucking stupid. Wrestling psychology is being able to tell a story within the ring whilst being in tune with the crowd reactions. It’s being able to make wrestling realistic through the use of body language and facial expressions without exposing it to be fake with incoherent moves and flips. Osprey is devoid of those traits and will most likely get retrained by WWE if he were to join them.
 

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Your perception of psychology is fucking stupid. Wrestling psychology is being able to tell a story within the ring whilst being in tune with the crowd reactions. It’s being able to make wrestling realistic through the use of body language and facial expressions without exposing it to be fake with incoherent moves and flips. Osprey is devoid of those traits and will most likely get retrained by WWE if he were to join them.
People claim Cody has psychology, but that’s only due to his family lineage. His shit is awful.

Point being that, no, people don’t really understand psychology.
 
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I understand why they do this. It adds a sense of legitimacy and urgency. You often can’t predict when someone comes out of the gate in New Japan.

I’ve not been a big fan of the guy’s work, historically. He proved himself to be a real jackass in that stuff with Vader. But it feels like he has grown into himself a lot. He’s filled out. His promos aren’t bad. If he works smarter, both in and out of the ring, I think he’ll make a perfectly acceptable heel gaijin champion for them.

Don’t hate this at all. Ibushi is not my cup of tea either, but he got a massive moment then got trumped. It sets up a story of redemption.

I really don’t think the AEW thing is happening guys. I think New Japan got the Moxley match going because they want to use him as an attraction, and Tony Khan just got jumpy with the trademarking and shit.
 
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