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Greek God of Knowledge
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Discussion Starter #1
I think it's no secret that fans are asking for something a little...different from today's WWE product. And if I had the desire (or the time for that matter) to explain how much change they want in today's product, I'd probably never get this finished. In case you didn't get what I was just saying there, there's a lot wrong with what's being put on screen right now. And I think that's a common feeling shared among most of the people on this forum.

For those of you who don't know, I am one of those people who have stopped watching the current product. And as of now I have no desire to watch it anytime soon. I didn't even watch Smackdown's fox debut (because that was the day of my wedding but either way, I probably wouldn't have watched it). And I too think there is a lot wrong with the current product. But I'm going to focus on one aspect. And that is the characters.

So no, it's not necessarily about Seth Rollins. But to me, Seth Rollins perfectly demonstrates what is wrong with today's WWE, and why if Fox ever wants things to improve in the ratings department, this is one aspect that needs to be improve upon (even though Seth isn't on Smackdown, but that's not the point). This isn't going to be a typical columns thread for me. There's no titles breaking down each individual point, I just want to take this opportunity to rant a bit and hopefully, I can help clear up one of the main frustrations with today's product, and shed a little light on why WWE's current roster simply can't work with what fans are looking for.

Now, let's just get this out of the way before I continue. I am not here to trash Seth's talent. I am not here to discredit his abilities. We already know how I feel about him. I find him to be an extremely untalented Pro Wrestler. His saving grace seems to be his in-ring work, and to me, he's incredibly flawed in that regard too. But I will make this thread while giving Seth the benefit of the doubt. I will say what I am about to say, with the assumption that Seth is in fact capable of being a great character worker (even though I personally do not think he is capable of that).

When Seth Rollins first rose to the top of the ranks in the Shield, I didn't have any real issues with him. His role in the group was clear. He wasn't an individual. He was part of a group, he was the piece to a puzzle. He was part of an idea, an idea of three very talented individuals who all stood out in their own way. Dean Ambrose was the leader, the spokesperson, the man with the big mouth but was capable of backing it up with a vicious brawling style. Seth was the man who put it all together, the glue that kept the pieces together, the incredible athlete who was there to be the daredevil and speed of the group when needed. Roman was the silent one, the man of few words but a complete bad ass. He was the powerhouse of the group, capable of standing up to the bigger and badder opponents that came across the Shield's path. I had no issues with this group (until they made Roman the main mouthpiece and leader, a role he wasn't meant for and they fucked it all up). No, I don't think they're an all time great group like WWE likes to pretend they are, but for the most part I did enjoy them.

But that didn't mean my issues with Seth as a performer weren't there. But this? This was a perfect role for him.

Single run Seth is where the issues started to show.

Whether it's heel or face Seth, the main thing that always bothered me with him came down to one common factor. Lets see if anyone can figure it out. I'm going to show some photos of other people from WWE in the past.















Anyone see anything about these people that stand out? Of course you do, because there is something, about all of them, that stands out. Just based on first impressions, The Rock, Steve Austin and Batista seem like legit bad ass people that you wouldn't want to mess with. You could tell CM Punk and Rowdy Piper are legit ass holes just from the pictures alone. Hogan, Savage, and Cena are just full of personality from their own photos. You can work off of so much from these people. There's actual character here. And there's SO much more examples I could have used, but I wanted to keep this limited to ordinary people acting out a character (except for CM Punk to an extent, but even then, he had the personality to make it work, he is his own unique character in of itself).

Now lets show a picture of a different Pro Wrestler shall we?



Please, try to sit there and tell me what you were able to make of Rollins based on this picture. Really try. What about him stands out? He has long black hair and a beard, and he's in pretty damn good shape. Okay? Cool. But based on this, I'm not getting anything about who he is as a person that makes me interested in him.

It's almost as if he's just an ordinary guy.

And that's it. That's all there ever was to him. There was nothing spectacular about him. There was nothing different about him from any guy that I'd come across at work. There was nothing I could find interesting about him because there's no character here. When he's a heel, he's just a coward. When he's a face, he doesn't fear anyone. I guess he's a great athlete? Okay? Cool. My best man was a great athlete in high school.

You may ask why this is important and why I am using this example. Well, let me explain why. You're a first time viewer and that person above is the first thing you come across. How likely do you think people are going to be to care about what this man has to say? He has no distinct personality that makes him stand out. He doesn't look like anyone worth giving a shit about. He has nothing. People don't watch Pro Wrestling with the intention of seeing who the best athletes are, or the best in-ring performers. Actually, scratch that. They don't watch WWE for it. But then again, you can't watch any product of Pro Wrestling if that's all you have. Because without everything else, the in-ring action is meaningless. Because WWE and Pro Wrestling itself are both scripted concepts and fans understand this, people are going into these shows with the idea that they are going to leave entertained. They are there for the story because that's what Pro Wrestling is. People don't watch baseball for the story, they watch for the game. They watch to see the best baseball players in the world either play on their favorite team or against it. But that's because there are no predetermined outcomes. There is no fix here. You are there to see who will win. People are a fan of the sport and enjoy seeing the best go to work.

So going back to my original point about seeing Rollins for the first time, most people aren't going to see a typical segment from him and go away from that saying "hey, I want to know more about this guy". They aren't going to care what his reaction will be to certain situations, because we already know how he's going to react.

We've all seen this, right?



Yeah, it's both hilarious and damaging to Seth's character. And I agree with that, for the most part. There is one thing that not a lot of people talk about with this moment that I think hurts Seth.

Bray was meant to be scary in this situation. And that's exactly how Seth reacted, with fear. If a regular guy sees something like this, how are they going to react? They will usually react in fear. Once again, Seth is just an ordinary guy reacting the same way anyone else would.

And that simply isn't inspiring. That isn't interesting. That isn't something that makes me want to come back next week and wonder how he's going to react, because we already knew what would happen. WWE wants you to think that Bray is scary, and Seth needs to showcase that. That doesn't help Bray, it just hurts Seth.

Lets take this opportunity to swap places for a moment. Lets say, The Rock, was in Seth's place in this feud. How do you think this would go down? Well, odds are, The Rock would never show this kind of fear against Bray, because that's simply something a face Rock would never do. It wasn't who he was. But would that hurt Bray? No. In fact, it would make me more interested in him. It would make me wonder how Bray would react to someone not being afraid of him, how he would deal with the fact that someone laughed in his face. What lengths would Bray go to in order to make The Rock feel this fear he wants him to experience? And how would the Rock react to it? Just right there, I feel there is more story possibility and more to work off of.

But all of that works the way it does because The Rock isn't just some great athlete. He wears sunglasses inside and talks about himself in the third person. There is nothing normal about him. He doesn't talk normal, he doesn't act normal, he doesn't look normal. That was the entire point. And notice how I didn't even mention his mic work, or his in-ring work, or anything else of the sort. And I am not saying you can succeed in Pro Wrestling on just character work, but I am saying that you need something to work off of, and when it comes to being the main representation of the company, the main face of your entire organization, you need something about who you are that stands out to the common audience. You need something that will make people want to know more about you. You need something that will make fans want to listen to you, make you laugh, make you cry for them, just make you give a shit. All of the guys I have listed above had this and then some.

What Seth is now doesn't. He is just a regular person like you and me. And that is never the mindset I should have when looking at the top face of a Pro Wrestling company.

When I made this thread, I made sure to put the word "currently" in the thread title, because I want to make it clear that right now at this moment, the Seth Rollins we have is not a good fit to be the top guy. I am not saying he is not cut out for it. I am not saying that he is not talented enough to pull it off (even though I personally do think he is not meant for this). What I am saying is that what he has to work with will set him up for failure every single time. It does not matter how good the writing is, it doesn't matter how good the opponent and it doesn't matter how good he is (or isn't). Steve Austin wasn't able to truly stand out until he became Steve Austin. The Rock was booed like a mother fucker when he was Rocky Mavia. No one cared about John Cena when he was just a buff white guy who came out in wrestling boxers with generic music. But when he became a rapper? That's when people started giving a shit.

This is a problem that can be summed up with a lot of the top guys in the WWE roster. Even Braun Strowman strikes me as just an ordinary guy who is big. And people who are different like Bray and Lacey Evans are stupidly thrown into title contention right off the start and have no where to go after. WWE has a legitimate roster problem. And if WWE has any plans to fix their currently flawed product, then good. They can start with this one.

Oh and change that stupid fucking belt. I'm sick of looking at it.
 

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Nobody has any personality.

Who is Rey Mysterio? Mexican guy that wears a mask.

Who is Ricochet? Skinny guy that flips about

Who is Randy Orton? No idea. Guy with tattoos. Why does he have that theme song? No idea.

Who is Samoa Joe? Fat guy that scowls a lot.

Even Stone Cold, Flair, Rock, Hogan are watered down versions of themselves when they make an appearance.

I have been watching the Hall of Fame inductions lately. Everybody has charisma and the IT factor, wether it be Edge or Christian, Goldberg or Sg Slaughter. Everyone is interesting.

God it's boring. Bring back gimmicks and strong characters. It's like everybody is sleepwalking.
 

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Big picture: Seth or any of the talent are not the problem. Wwe as a promotion are. Prince Devitt in njpw cool badass dude with alot of buzz. Megastar potential. Finn balor in wwe a complete tool. Nakamura in njpw: The most charismatic wrestler on the planet and an all around goat performer. Nakamura in wwe tool. Tye Dillinger in wwe: Complete jobber. Shawn Spears in aew really solid heel. Wwe probably has 80% of the best wrestlers on the planet yet nobody is a star due to overscripted segments,50/50 booking and a bunch of other corny shit. I cant stand Seth but I honestly think if he never went to wwe and signed to aew today people would be buzzing about him. As a talent he,s not that bad. Compare him to say Adam Page who gets sick pops, seth is 10x the performer in every aspect
 

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First off, congrats on your wedding.

Second, as for Seth, would he have been like this if he came years earlier in the WWE? I don't even know who's the top guy anymore in the WWE, when the guy who's supposed to be the champ is treated like a chump. And on the other show where the title is held hostage. :lmao :lmao
 

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The Babyface of WF
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I can't see Seth ever changing and developing a new persona that can resonate with the audience, At least I can tell he's giving off the old "What you see is what you get" vibe, I imagined a Heel turn that could manage some tweaks to his flawed character work being a bland Babyface who only gets pretty strong reactions but I doubt it at this point.

Never say never though.
 

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That is what happens when you overexpose people that have no business being at the top.

I fully agree with the picture thing you brought up. Even though they're not from my time, The Rock and Austin stand out. So does Punk. But then I look at Seth and he really doesn't look like anything. He looks like a mid-carder at best. But then he starts talking and/or having a match and it all goes down the shitter.
 

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Fearless University Graduate
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And I dont see it ever changing for Seth. Look back over his whole career he's never shown anything resembling a character. I know there was that period where people were convinced he was greatness and would be a Star, but he's never had those qualities.

He doesn't have any qualities really.
 

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The face that runs the List
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God it's boring. Bring back gimmicks and strong characters. It's like everybody is sleepwalking.
I agree with this but...

Who is Randy Orton? No idea. Guy with tattoos. Why does he have that theme song? No idea.
Today it's pointless, sure. But back in 2008, that theme song made sense with his gimmick and the storyline with the McMahons and HHH.
 

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SmarkSlammer
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Nobody has any personality.

Who is Rey Mysterio? Mexican guy that wears a mask.

Who is Ricochet? Skinny guy that flips about

Who is Randy Orton? No idea. Guy with tattoos. Why does he have that theme song? No idea.

Who is Samoa Joe? Fat guy that scowls a lot.

Even Stone Cold, Flair, Rock, Hogan are watered down versions of themselves when they make an appearance.

I have been watching the Hall of Fame inductions lately. Everybody has charisma and the IT factor, wether it be Edge or Christian, Goldberg or Sg Slaughter. Everyone is interesting.

God it's boring. Bring back gimmicks and strong characters. It's like everybody is sleepwalking.

I would say that modern day Mysterio is dull. But Rey definitely had character and personality before his second stint. He had the mystique of his mask and was one of the best pure faces on the roster with his unique look and style. I agree with the rest.
 

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Greek God of Knowledge
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Discussion Starter #10
I just realized I grabbed the wrong picture of Roddy Piper. In that one it's kind of hard to tell if his character is an asshole because I'm pretty sure he took that picture when he was a face :lol Whatever, everyone knows what he was all about.
 

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SmarkSlammer
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Seth Rollins has NEVER been a worthy world champion and face of the company based off of his skill set and real life personality.


Seth Rollins brags about his pay, whines about fans at airports, complains about fans sabotaging his matches even though it's his job to entertain people, embarasses himself as the top guy on social media with his feud with Ospreay (how pathetic is is that the top face of the top company is apologising to a mid tier guy in a smaller promotion), throws Ambrose under the bus and now in response to his complete lack of mic skills and character (which he NEVER had) is saying DURRR YOU'RE ALL JEALOUS AND WISH YOU COULD DATE BECKY!!!
Rollins is an indy guy who was popular with the IWC who's now being thrust into the top role of a The top promotion. He's not gonna handle himself with Class like Cena (who had more hate than any other guy), he's gonna behave like a wrestling forum ranter.


In terms of his skill set all he has is good in ring skills, a decent look (albeit a little generic with the amount of wet haired guys running around) and a cool moveset.


-He's NEVER been a good promo. His mic skills are bad for a top face.

-His in ring psychology and selling is weak and his selling of the knee is the laughable.

-He has ZERO CHARACTER! For those who says ''he's a workhorse'' that's a character of low card opening match guy not the face of the freaking company.

-He can't be successful by himself. His lack of presence and charisma was masked by being in the SHIELD, in his entire heel run he had the Authority surround him to give him heel heat because he's bad on the mic, in his IC title run he had the SHIELD AGAIN and recently they had to incorporate his real life relationship to give him personality because by himself he has none.

-For those who say WWE doesn't give him character, when has Tyler Black shown an interesting character in ROH? Rollins has never shown standout character even when he's in the indies. He has no hint of potential. Seth Rollins has been given plenty of time in the main event and still shows ZERO personality. Writing may be bad but the sheer amount of screen time he's had he's had plenty of chances.

-WWE HAVE TRIED! They've given him so many nicknames like '' The Architect, Kingslayer, Beastslayer and the Burn it Down schtick but he does NOTHING other than wear T shirts. He doesn't take the ball and run with it like R-Truth can. He's given stuff and does zilch.

-His entrance is lame and his theme music without Burn it Down sounds like generic jobber music.

-I get strong vibes that he panders to IWC hardcore fans rather than try to appeal to casuals. Him starting beef with guys in NJPW (AKA promotions that a casual wouldn't of heard of) to try and make himself look cool and him cosplaying for no good reason (it's got nothing to do with his character. At least when Mysterio did it it made sense because he wears masks) to pander to internet nerds that he appeals to.

-He's got no standout traits, catchphrases or taunts. If you ask someone to impersonate Seth Rollins, what are you gonna do? He's so bland.

This isn't just a recent thing for me. Ever since the SHIELD were a thing, I always said that he was the guy with the least potential to be an interesting main eventer. Ambrose had the promos and crazed character, Reigns was a silent badass that was very popular with the fans and Rollins had...workrate.

But the IWC continued through these years to hype him as the best thing in WWE just because of some moves he does in the ring. All of his title reigns have been hot garbage (NO his IC title reigns are shit if he manages to get fans to chant other things in his matches and whines about it on twitter). You guys were praying for him to beat Brock at Mania, you got it and we got a shit title reign.

His feud with Styles was promoted in backstage interviews because he has no presence. Yes Corbin is boring but so is Rollins. You guys can complain about bad writing all you want but if you have no character and never shown potential for character, you're not giving creative a good base to work off of.

I would rather have a champion that shows up once a month that is actually ENTERTAINING, has CHARACTER, is UNPREDICTABLE and has a PRESENCE! If Rollins keeps up with his ridiculous resume (he's a THREE time double champion), things will only get worse.
 

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alexa = greatest of all time!
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he's good at everything but not great at anything :shrug

and even then his promos are often not even 'good'!
 

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Christ man you should do ted talks.

But yeah I agree. Seth as IC champion was a lot of fun. He received strong booking but not ridiculous booking. But it's not just Seth himself that's the problem. You put anyone on top even the fiend and Vince will make you hate them. He never books top guys naturally. He books them like superman with the infinity gauntlet. There's never any failures or trials it's always prevail.

Another thing AEW is doing right
 

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Seth Rollins for me always worked better as a heel. He's not a top tier guy on the mic, but they have pushed guys worse than him on the stick. I always felt like he carried himself like a star and has a good look. Not in the sense of he'll kick your ass in a shoot, but more like a rockstar vibe. I think as a face his character panders too much and he hasn't done himself any favors with some of the stuff he has said on social media.

I don't think WWE can have a dominant face and have him on television every week and main eventing every PPV. The fans are pretty much going to turn on whoever is in that spot and anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves. If WWE is going to have dominant face at the forefront, he needs to be booked like Lesnar in the sense that he doesn't show up every week and he doesn't wrestle on every PPV.
 

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WWE: "Seth is just a regular guy, like me and you! He proves that ANYONE can be Universal champion! Please watch our programs. PLEASE."
 

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Well I am of the belief that being a standard regular guy is not that bad for a pro wrestler. That is, if you have charisma. I mean, I like Daniel Bryan, and he's a regular nerd, like a lot of people. His shtick actually IS that he's one of us, he's being bulled and called "B+" his entire life, but he overcomes this, so we can get behind him.

But in Seth's case, he is just not charismatic enough to portray this character. Idk how he was as Tyler Black, people seemed to love him before. But WWE forced this guy on us like we should buy that he's "one of us", when in reality we know he's a big head prick in real life, and he doesn't exactly come off as a humbled person on TV.
 

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I get the point you're trying to make but the argument is very flawed. The picture stuff is just subjective. How do you know a casual fan sees a picture of Seth Rollins and is not interested? You have no basis to that argument. The pictures of CM Punk and Seth Rollins look identical, why is the Punk one ok but the Rollins one not?

And if a casual fan saw a picture of Stone Cold and didn't know who he was, they might just think angry bald guy, and look at that picture of Cena, he looks absolutely ridiculous, Rollins looks more like a star in the pictures.

As for the Rollins being scared. God forbid a superstar goes an extra mile to get their opponent over. Rollins was selling fear to make The Fiend come across as something truly terrifying, and it worked, people were anticipating The Fiend destroying Rollins at the PPV. Would you really rather have had The Rock call the freak a mask wearing fatty? Or Cena to laugh in his face and shoot about Husky Harris?

Wrestling is acting, storytelling, for this pacticular segment, Rollins job was to sell fear of The Fiend and he did a good job. And instead he gets shit on by a bunch of insecure fans who think showing any emotion in a scripted entertainment show is weakness? Conveniently forgetting that Rollins kicked The Fiend's ass at HIAC. GTFOH.
 

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You need to be yourself, you can't be no-one else.
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seth rollins probably works best as the cocky / cowardly heel character like he was after WM 31. Seth's poor acting ability can be somewhat overlooked in that instance because you can believe that hes just being arrogant. Same with fake laugh, least it sounds antagonistic as a heel. His general unlikable personality works in his favour within that role.

beyond that, seth simply cannot act. Nothing he does is believable because hes so damn wooden. You cannot associate with him as a face because he comes across so ungenuine. For example, his attempt at fear is the caricature of fear. Its the overcompensation of someone trying to appear scared instead of someone actually being scared to the point that it comes across as comedic rather than befitting of the situation.
 

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Greek God of Knowledge
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Discussion Starter #19
I get the point you're trying to make but the argument is very flawed. The picture stuff is just subjective. How do you know a casual fan sees a picture of Seth Rollins and is not interested? You have no basis to that argument.
Of course it's subjective, it's an argument I'm making.

The pictures of CM Punk and Seth Rollins look identical, why is the Punk one ok but the Rollins one not?
I said there is nothing that stands out about Rollins in the picture. Of course that points to being interested, but that isn't the point.

And no, the pictures of Punk and Seth do not look identical. Punk isn't anywhere close to being in the same shape that Seth is, has multiple tattoos and his attire is completely different. He has this smug arrogant look on his face. He doesn't come across as an ordinary guy.

And if a casual fan saw a picture of Stone Cold and didn't know who he was, they might just think angry bald guy, and look at that picture of Cena, he looks absolutely ridiculous, Rollins looks more like a star in the pictures.
I think you're completely missing my point here. It's not about the picture itself. It's about the person in the picture, that is what they would be seeing for the first time they tuned in and had no idea who these people were. I used pictures because those provide nothing but an image of who they are. There's no movement, and just one expression. All you have is what you see. First impressions are very important and that's the case I'm trying to make here.

Sure, you could see Stone Cold as an angry bald guy, OR he could be a rough bad ass who just doesn't take shit from anyone. Both are interesting angles to look at it from because it's a legitimate character. Cena does look ridiculous, but that's the point. He may look like a clown, but seeing him dressed like that suddenly makes you wonder what kind of person he is. It draws you into him.

Rollins just looks like an ordinary athlete. You claimed him and Punk looked identical and yet you ignored the small details in their attire. These are important.

As for the Rollins being scared. God forbid a superstar goes an extra mile to get their opponent over. Rollins was selling fear to make The Fiend come across as something truly terrifying, and it worked, people were anticipating The Fiend destroying Rollins at the PPV. Would you really rather have had The Rock call the freak a mask wearing fatty? Or Cena to laugh in his face and shoot about Husky Harris?
He didn't get his opponent over. Bray Wyatt is the heel in this feud and people were cheering for him. So in other words he failed, spectacularly.

Going the extra mile to help your opponent doesn't mean damaging your own character in its entirety. It means putting in the extra effort to help the story being told at hand. But the story has to make sense within the confines of the characters on screen. And before this, the likes of Brock Lesnar and Braun Strowman didn't scare Seth Rollins at all, even when he had broken ribs at one point. But now I'm expected to believe that Rollins is so scared of this fat guy wearing a mask because he has strobe lights? Why? Bray Wyatt hasn't done anything beforehand to deserve such a reputation. He had one match against Finn Balor and beat him. He has done nothing to prove he is anything to be scared of.

That's why the act of Seth screaming in fear at seeing Bray comes across as comical. It didn't make Bray look more menacing, it just made Seth look like a massive bitch, because Bray has done nothing to earn this. And yes, I absolutely would have rather had those two things happen. You wanna know why? Because you know Bray wouldn't have taken that shit lying down. He would have fired right back the following week and do something so menacing that he would give Cena and The Rock reasons to take notice. And maybe they still aren't scared and that's perfectly fine, but they now realize they are up against something serious. And that's how you make someone come across as truly menacing.

Wrestling is acting, storytelling, for this pacticular segment, Rollins job was to sell fear of The Fiend and he did a good job. And instead he gets shit on by a bunch of insecure fans who think showing any emotion in a scripted entertainment show is weakness? Conveniently forgetting that Rollins kicked The Fiend's ass at HIAC. GTFOH.
And now just like that, you just perfectly explained why Seth showing any sort of fear against Bray was idiotic. Yeah, he did kick Bray's ass at HIAC. All that nonsense about going the extra mile for Bray ended up being for nothing, because in the end he still was able to come out on top. He was still able to walk out as champion. And he did it via an absolute ass whooping. Why should Seth, or anyone for that matter, be scared of Bray now? Why should anyone take him seriously? When Kane had his match with the Undertaker at Wrestlemania 14, he didn't get his ass kicked. He had a back and forth match with Taker, and in the end, he managed to kick out of two straight Tombstones before the third one finally put him away, and even then, he still almost kicked out. The Tombstone was a move that always put people away, but kicking out of it twice and almost a third time? That said a lot about how dangerous Kane was, and it also said a lot about how good Taker was. There was no controversial way of ending the match that ended up diverting fans attention away. They went with a straight up finish that benefited both guys, which is how it should be done.
 
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