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People always say Orton is one of the most technically gifted, sound wrestler ever. Everything he does is flawless and perfect. Yet I never seen many of those big blow away 5 star caliber matches many have had. Many of his matches range from good to great but never all time classic. Someone like Cena who many may say is awkward in the ring at times as had countless classic caliber matches, 5 star quality. His biggest claim to fame is his finisher, without it no one would give a rats ass about Randy I never seen Orton reach those levels. Why is that? Why does someone like John Cena have MUCH better matches against AJ Styles and CM Punk than Orton did? And the "sorry he don't do flips" excuse is irrelevant since I don't care, many guys who don't do flips consistently have better matches.
 

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He has. Orton's greatest matches have had more psychology, more storytelling and more emotion than most others have done in the WWE. The issue is that fans mentalities have shifted towards seeing great matches in terms of 5-star presentations. Does it have an endless array of moves at a frantic pace for 20 minutes or so? multiple finisher kickouts? That'll get a match a five star rating these days, but strip away the bluster and it's a shallow and emotionless story.

Orton has told better stories than most.
 

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He has. Orton's greatest matches have had more psychology, more storytelling and more emotion than most others have done in the WWE. The issue is that fans mentalities have shifted towards seeing great matches in terms of 5-star presentations. Does it have an endless array of moves at a frantic pace for 20 minutes or so? multiple finisher kickouts? That'll get a match a five star rating these days, but strip away the bluster and it's a shallow and emotionless story.

Orton has told better stories than most.
I've seen better excuses. Orton has only had one 5-star match in his career. You can twist it upside down, come up with all type of crap about psychology and stories as if Orton was the only superstar to know the importance of a story, and you can pretend you think he actually had bouts of astounding interest in and out of themselves...but he hasn't. Replies in his favor with a superior tone do nothing to change it.
 

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I've seen better excuses. Orton has only had one 5-star match in his career. You can twist it upside down, come up with all type of crap about psychology and stories as if Orton was the only superstar to know the importance of a story, and you can pretend you think he actually had bouts of astounding interest in and out of themselves...but he hasn't. Replies in his favor with a superior tone do nothing to change it.
Absolute tripe. Makes a point about superior tone and then proceeds to demonstrate superior tone.
 

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It's not about whether you achieve some contemporary mythical five-star grading based on some variables that obsess over move count, but whether the emotion and story of the match stays with you after you forget all the move sequences.

Below are absurdly brilliant matches.

Orton v. Michaels - SS '07
Orton v. Mysterio - No Way Out '06
Orton v. Cactus - Backlash '04
Orton v. Benoit - Smackdown '06
Orton v. Taker - Armageddon '05
Orton v. Edge v. Cena v. Michaels - Backlash '07
Orton v. Christian - Over the Limit '11
Orton v. Mysterio - Smackdown '06
Orton v. Edge - Raw '07
Orton v. Flair - Taboo Tuesday '04
 

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Orton shouldn't be compared to guy like Cena when it comes to big matches where people build off of emotion, Cena is a dream opponent for rising Stars and established talent who have yet to make their move to WWE and is considered to be the bar to reach.

Orton is great when he's motivated as he's a solid storyteller and actually pays attention when it comes to In Ring IQ, He's had big matches before that you could consider a 5 star depending on your taste but to me he's not Top Tier in performance so expecting every match he has to be a classic showcase would be asking for much.

His build with Mick Foley was great until it reached Backlash 04, His feud with Taker produced some good matches especially WM21 and Armageddon 05, Edge on just about any occasion minus their short 2010 feud, HBK in 07, Christian in 2011, Daniel Bryan in 2013 particularly NOC was good although not necessarily great, Seth at WM31, Jeff Hardy at HIAC 18 etc...
 

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He has. Orton's greatest matches have had more psychology, more storytelling and more emotion than most others have done in the WWE. The issue is that fans mentalities have shifted towards seeing great matches in terms of 5-star presentations. Does it have an endless array of moves at a frantic pace for 20 minutes or so? multiple finisher kickouts? That'll get a match a five star rating these days, but strip away the bluster and it's a shallow and emotionless story.

Orton has told better stories than most.
If you look at the universally considered best matches in WWE recent history ie Shawn vs Razor ladder at Mania 10, bret vs Owen at mania 10, Bret vs Owen at Summerslam 94 cage, Austin vs bret at survivor series 96 and Wrestlemania 13, Shawn vs taker first hiac, rock vs Austin at Wrestlemania 17, Wrestlemania 20 mainevent, flair vs hbk retirement, Shawn vs undertaker mania 25 and punk vs cena at mitb none were really mutiple kickouts

I could add Brock vs punk and Cena vs Bryan at Summerslam 13, Cena vs Umaga at 2007 rumble, Cena vs Shawn Michaels raw match in 2007, Brock vs Cena extreme rules 2012, Benoit vs Angle cage, Jericho vs hbk ladder 2008, edge vs taker hiac Summerslam 2008 as highly praised matches off top of my head that didn't have multiple kickouts either.

There is no doubt orton can put on good matches. However he can be lazy and unmotivated at times too.
 

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If you look at the universally considered best matches in WWE recent history ie Shawn vs Razor ladder at Mania 10, bret vs Owen at mania 10, Bret vs Owen at Summerslam 94 cage, Austin vs bret at survivor series 96 and Wrestlemania 13, Shawn vs taker first hiac, rock vs Austin at Wrestlemania 17, Wrestlemania 20 mainevent, flair vs hbk retirement, Shawn vs undertaker mania 25 and punk vs cena at mitb none were really mutiple kickouts

I could add Brock vs punk and Cena vs Bryan at Summerslam 13, Cena vs Umaga at 2007 rumble, Cena vs Shawn Michaels raw match in 2007, Brock vs Cena extreme rules 2012, Benoit vs Angle cage, Jericho vs hbk ladder 2008, edge vs taker hiac Summerslam 2008 as highly praised matches off top of my head that didn't have multiple kickouts either.
Precisely.

Universally praised historically loved matches that didn't fit the contemporary definition of "great" as determined by those who insist on adhering to a flawed rating system.
 

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Randy's always been better on the Mic than in the ring. The wrestlers that are better mic workers than in ring workers usually get their matches undervalued
 

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Should've checked Orton's matches with Christian. Those were indeed classic and the one with HBK at Survivor series with their story-telling.
Not a fan of Orton, but you spoke the truth there. His matches with Christian had me on the edge on my seat. I can't imagine anyone in the full time roster outside of Daniel Bryan, Rey Mysterio, and, based on personal tastes, maybe Sheamus and Bray Wyatt achieving that.
 

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Randy's always been better on the Mic than in the ring. The wrestlers that are better mic workers than in ring workers usually get their matches undervalued
Randy is better on the mic than he is in the ring?

I guess you're letting the liquor do the thinking Mr. Lahey.
 

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I guess its down to personal taste. Give me Orton, Flair, Bret, Shawn telling a story with 1 finisher or not one at all than multi kick outs and spots. But thats me. Yes Orton can be lazy and unmotivaed when he has crap to work with but as a storyteller inside and outside the ring i'd put him right with the best over the last 15 years or so.

And yes the Christian feud especially was glorious.
 

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It's not about whether you achieve some contemporary mythical five-star grading based on some variables that obsess over move count, but whether the emotion and story of the match stays with you after you forget all the move sequences.
Here you are thinking yourself so superior in match analysis. No, PassingTriangles, we are not idiots who think a high move count, multiple kickoffs and finishers equal a great match. We know what a great match is, we know what pro wrestling is all about. And Orton simply isn't capable of an absolute classic. Why put lipstick on a pig?
 

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Orton's match with HHH would've been an automatic 5-star match had Vince picked the Tokyo Dome to host Mania 25 over NRG Stadium. The WON hivemind here baffles me.
They buy into the hype and the bias. It's unreal. Meltzer loves wrestlers that love him (Gargano) and the people that feed him dirt, like Heyman.
 
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