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Discussion Starter #1
in 05/06 Chris Masters And Carlito were on the verge of main eventing. They were in the Elmination Chamber Match with Cena, Angle And HBK. Why did'nt they make it in the main event?

Then 07/08 Kennedy And MVP Same Story..



My question is why do you think such talent like i listed above did'nt make it? Should they have done the Sheamus and swagger Treatment and just gave them the belt?
 

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Celestial Messiah
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Did you really think guys like Masters and Carlito, both basically one note characters, are main event caliber? Plus, that very night they made a new main eventer in Edge.

Kennedy was gonna main event. He even won MiTB. But he kept getting injured, making dumb comments, and pissed off the wrong people backstage.

As for MVP, who knows.
 

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Masters was 70% roids, Carlito lost his mind abit, Kennedy hurt Orton Orton cried Kennedy got the boot and MVP has become stail

MVP's last good feud was with Hardy

he deserves a push after losing 30 matches in a row

McIntyre has gone stail to so i hope he doesnt get another push before MVP
 

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I must away and tend to my ravens
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A big part of the problem is a lack of jobber matches. 20 years ago, guys like Carlito and Masters could get over by working in squash matches against local jobbers for a few months to let people get used to their movesets so that they'd have a reason to pop at certain points in their matches. After a while they could move up to full-time jobbers like Zack Ryder, Chavo, Goldust, etc. before stepping up to the main-event; those full-time jobbers could still work with the local guys.

Now that route has been taken away, wrestlers only work with other full-time roster members who need a certain amount of protection so nobody gets over in a big way anymore; new guys get part way there but run into the top guys before they're ready. Carlito and Masters might have been able to get further than they did but not in the current structure, it would be stupid to have them go over the likes of Triple H and Cena on a regular basis because they didn't have enough crowd support for it to be worth the risk.

I'm not bashing WWE or the top guys for the decisions they made within the structure they have, I would do the same thing in that situation. What I'm critisising is the overall structure that blocks progress for anyone who hasn't recieved the green light from day one (Sheamus and Brock Lesnar for example). It is this structure that needs to change if guys are to be allowed to get over organically rather then in the contrived way which is all too familiar these days.
 

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in 05/06 Chris Masters And Carlito were on the verge of main eventing. They were in the Elmination Chamber Match with Cena, Angle And HBK. Why did'nt they make it in the main event?

Then 07/08 Kennedy And MVP Same Story..



My question is why do you think such talent like i listed above did'nt make it? Should they have done the Sheamus and swagger Treatment and just gave them the belt?
Easy because they aren't cool with HHH, Shawn Micheals, or Undertaker. It is a shame that we have to see Sheamus as champion. I didn't mind Swagger but Sheamus I don't like him as champion
 

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DELIRIUM
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I would have loved to see Carlito built up as a main eventer. He had a wicked finisher, he was solid on the mic, and whenever he was on a PPV card, he usually put on the MOTN wrestling-wise. Too bad, though.

I never liked Masters, however. He was passable when he debuted, but after that HBK feud, he was nothing.

Same with MVP. Never liked him either. The only time I could watch him was when he was a heel. What a surprise.
 

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The simple answer is, they diddn't suck up to HHH.
 

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Did you really think guys like Masters and Carlito, both basically one note characters, are main event caliber? Plus, that very night they made a new main eventer in Edge.

Kennedy was gonna main event. He even won MiTB. But he kept getting injured, making dumb comments, and pissed off the wrong people backstage.

As for MVP, who knows.
Totally agree with the bold!
 

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A big part of the problem is a lack of jobber matches. 20 years ago, guys like Carlito and Masters could get over by working in squash matches against local jobbers for a few months to let people get used to their movesets so that they'd have a reason to pop at certain points in their matches. After a while they could move up to full-time jobbers like Zack Ryder, Chavo, Goldust, etc. before stepping up to the main-event; those full-time jobbers could still work with the local guys.

Now that route has been taken away, wrestlers only work with other full-time roster members who need a certain amount of protection so nobody gets over in a big way anymore; new guys get part way there but run into the top guys before they're ready. Carlito and Masters might have been able to get further than they did but not in the current structure, it would be stupid to have them go over the likes of Triple H and Cena on a regular basis because they didn't have enough crowd support for it to be worth the risk.

I'm not bashing WWE or the top guys for the decisions they made within the structure they have, I would do the same thing in that situation. What I'm critisising is the overall structure that blocks progress for anyone who hasn't recieved the green light from day one (Sheamus and Brock Lesnar for example). It is this structure that needs to change if guys are to be allowed to get over organically rather then in the contrived way which is all too familiar these days.


exaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaactly right.
 

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Masters was fired due to 'roids.
That pretty much screwed him.

Carlito, was a top midcarder at the most. US Title on his debut? Sick. WWE Tag Champ? Cool, crowd's lovin' him. Then winning the WWE Unified Tag Team Championship at WM25? Even better.
I think the Primo v Carlito feud was there to have Carlito go over, but I guess not.

MVP? Half man half amazing, this guy, honestly, I could've seen him as WWE Champ. Dunno HOW he'd get there, but I could see him with the belt 'round his waist. But he was given the title of the longest US Title holder in WWE history. And was a tag champ alongside a US Champ.
 

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A big part of the problem is a lack of jobber matches. 20 years ago, guys like Carlito and Masters could get over by working in squash matches against local jobbers for a few months to let people get used to their movesets so that they'd have a reason to pop at certain points in their matches. After a while they could move up to full-time jobbers like Zack Ryder, Chavo, Goldust, etc. before stepping up to the main-event; those full-time jobbers could still work with the local guys.

Now that route has been taken away, wrestlers only work with other full-time roster members who need a certain amount of protection so nobody gets over in a big way anymore; new guys get part way there but run into the top guys before they're ready. Carlito and Masters might have been able to get further than they did but not in the current structure, it would be stupid to have them go over the likes of Triple H and Cena on a regular basis because they didn't have enough crowd support for it to be worth the risk.

I'm not bashing WWE or the top guys for the decisions they made within the structure they have, I would do the same thing in that situation. What I'm critisising is the overall structure that blocks progress for anyone who hasn't recieved the green light from day one (Sheamus and Brock Lesnar for example). It is this structure that needs to change if guys are to be allowed to get over organically rather then in the contrived way which is all too familiar these days.
this. even in the early days of raw, there were jobbers. matt and jeff were jobbers for a while before they became the hardy boys. part of me wishes there were jobbers...and a part of me is glad there aren't because i really don't want to see someone like luke gallows beat up some no body. honestly, i really dont want to see luke gallows at all.

i like masters though...i still think he has a shot...a small shot, but a shot none the less. i actually thought he was gonna get a small push with eve there for a bit...but then that just abruptly stopped.
 

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Easy because they aren't cool with HHH, Shawn Micheals, or Undertaker. It is a shame that we have to see Sheamus as champion. I didn't mind Swagger but Sheamus I don't like him as champion
im pretty sure masters was cool with shawn. but the roid thing and suspension etc screwed him...maybe after the elections are over...?
 

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HEADBANGA
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Carlito and MVP got screwed out of being top guys because of politics plain and simple. Carlito had a lot of major feuds but always came out jobbed (HHH and Flair come to mind). MVP was over and he had a epic run with the US title and Tag titles and nothing ever came of it even though you could tell there was big plans for the guy. It's a shame really.
 

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i don't think carlito was screwed by politics in the sense that he was "buried" in the ring or however you want to say it. he was screwed(by himself) because he did and said stupid shit. i mean, can you really picture carlito actually beating ric fucking flair? no, didn't think so. ric was still pretty good at the time too...it just wouldn't make sense. ric still made him look good. michaels made masters look good, but masters was shut down for other reasons. i like carlito, but he only hurt himself. he complains that he was misused...yeah, he was but he shouldn't have complained about it publicly. thats what screwed him.
 

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Purebred Powerhouse
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Peepaholic was on the right track about there being a lack of progress amongst the cards nowadays. But there's more to it than just a lack of squash matches and jobbers to be fed to the rising stars. The entire structure could use an overhaul.

There's such a lack of depth lately. Instead of intense, long-standing rivalries in the mid-card, we get a series of heatless matches (at best). Examples of that spring to mind from all different directions - Kofi versus Miz for the US Title, Miz versus Truth for the US Title, Ziggler versus Rey for the IC Title, Morrison versus Drew for the IC Title, and so on. And so on and so on. And so on.

The feuds never really lead anywhere. There is never really any satisfying or logical conclusion. The storytelling is irrelevant, because it's usually just a series of rematches set to occur until something else happens. It has become redundant, predictable, and bland.

Carltio was at his best when he was ripping into Cena on the mic or in a significant feud against Orton. Likewise, Masters looked to have tremendous potential when he was placed in a meaningful feud against Shawn Michaels and even having competitive and credible matches against Cena on episodes of RAW.

Kennedy was riding huge tides of momentum throughout his individual feuds against the likes of Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker, and others.

But perhaps NONE of them truly represent my case better than MVP.

MVP truly appeared to be a future superstar when his rivalries actually progressed from grudges into uninhibited blood-feuds.

His matches with Kane developed from him always needing to sneak out a win over the monster. In the end, it took Kane getting his hands on MVP & setting the rookie on fire to settle their differences.

In MVP's feud with Chris Benoit, there was (once again) that element of progress. At first, MVP was taken to school by Benoit's technical expertise. Time after time, Benoit found a way to outclass MVP in the ring. After several rematches, MVP finally got it done. And, when he did, he truly outclassed Benoit by defeating Benoit in two straight falls on the same night. That's progress.

And then there's the fondly remembered feud with Matt Hardy. This angle allowed MVP to get over his arrogance and flamboyance, while embarking on a tale of mistrust between two partners. Along the way, MVP teased a face turn and actually came to Matt's defense. But egos clashed, and MVP maintained his heelish ways. The blowoff to this feud (if it weren't for Matt's injury) should've seen MVP turn up his intensity and perhaps let his own ego cost him the US Title.

From there, it should've been more upward progression for MVP. But real life circumstances got in the way, and it is what it is.

My point is - there's just no real progress in the mid-cards anymore. The feuds aren't fleshed out. They all seem directionless. As a result, they fall flet and just don't feel like they mean much at all.

If progress can't be made, then these mid-carders are stuck. Of course, there will be times when someone is bumped up or made into a main eventer. But it wouldn't seem so forced or unnatural if there was actually progress being made in the mid-card feuds in the first place.
 

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Carlito hated being pushed as a babyface and bitched and moaned about it in an interview after which he got punished by being left of WM23:

I'm out of Wrestlemania," he says. "Apparently, they had to make space for Kane vs. Khali and Melina vs. Ashley. How can I be at Wrestlemania? If I politic and kiss ass, I should make it.

"I absolutely hate being a babyface more than anything else."

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/Wrestlemania23/2007/03/30/3878889.html
They were pushing him to the moon as a babyface and yet he bitches and moans about it? He got what he deserved.

As for Masters, his career was stalled due to a wellness violation and then Kennedy was just really, really, really, really, really x 1000 unlucky. Something Savage is really spot on about MVP so no need for me to tackle that subject.
 

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But perhaps NONE of them truly represent my case better than MVP.

MVP truly appeared to be a future superstar when his rivalries actually progressed from grudges into uninhibited blood-feuds.

His matches with Kane developed from him always needing to sneak out a win over the monster. In the end, it took Kane getting his hands on MVP & setting the rookie on fire to settle their differences.

In MVP's feud with Chris Benoit, there was (once again) that element of progress. At first, MVP was taken to school by Benoit's technical expertise. Time after time, Benoit found a way to outclass MVP in the ring. After several rematches, MVP finally got it done. And, when he did, he truly outclassed Benoit by defeating Benoit in two straight falls on the same night. That's progress.

And then there's the fondly remembered feud with Matt Hardy. This angle allowed MVP to get over his arrogance and flamboyance, while embarking on a tale of mistrust between two partners. Along the way, MVP teased a face turn and actually came to Matt's defense. But egos clashed, and MVP maintained his heelish ways. The blowoff to this feud (if it weren't for Matt's injury) should've seen MVP turn up his intensity and perhaps let his own ego cost him the US Title.

From there, it should've been more upward progression for MVP. But real life circumstances got in the way, and it is what it is.
To add on from 17Something Savage, from there MVP actually did move on with more progression, he went on to feud with Rey Mysterio for a good month or so then feud with the legendary Ric Flair for a chance to end his career and he received a lot of praise from Flair backstage after their feud ended. MVP participated in the World Heavyweight Championship Elimination Chamber then went on to have a series of matches with Batista for a month while also getting ready for the MITB match for WM which was heavily evolved around MVP/Chris Jericho after Jeff Hardy. MVP managed to get a couple of victories over Batista which one involved a pinfall victory over him. No other upper-mid-carder or mid-carder in general would not able to get that massive win over a unstoppable Batista. MVP also had a great feud with the hottest superstar of 2008 in Jeff Hardy which was his last memorable feud as a Heel and not only he feuded with him he DEFEATED Jeff Hardy at SummerSlam 2008. Not to mention MVP had already defeated the likes of Chris Benoit, Kane, Matt Hardy (when he was relevant), Rey Mysterio, CM Punk, Ric Flair, Big Show, Chris Jericho, Jeff Hardy and Batista among others, MVP had his own unique entrance, pyro, everything. They had invested a lot in MVP and the superstars he went over. That’s why I always scratched my head on how much he has fallen since his glory days of 06-08. Something must of really happen backstage to be where he is now cause MVP could of easily been a top Heel of SD and a multi-time World Champion.

The highest paid gimmick for MVP screamed main eventer and in that process he was over as hell, getting mix reactions from the audience when he was a Heel. If anyone wanted to see a proper face run for MVP? Look at his work with Matt Hardy when they were tag team champions, MVP was still able to be himself while teaming with Matt.
 

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I would love to see MVP turn heel and head back to his original persona. The cocky, arrogant, rich superstar gimmick would have seen him as a World Champion by now. No doubt about it.
 
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