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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
Austin turned heel thus forfeiting his numero uno babyface position. He was number 1 only when Rock was not around.

In overall merchandise sales John Cena is the number 1 guy. Peak sales for one calendar year, Austin still holds the record.

PPV buys? No one can touch The Rock, peak, cumulative, absolute, doesn't matter. 4 Mania headlines with over 1m buys, more than 17 headlined PPVs with over 500k buys, it's not even close.

Also you say WWF couldn't draw huge PPV buys in 80s? Wrong. Hogan vs Savage @WM5 drew 767k buys. It took WM 15 and The Rock in the main event as the WWF champion for WWF to break that record with 800k buys. Hogan was a huge PPV draw.

You are a good poster, but do not let your Austin fanboyism skew the numbers.
During his run, how much of a draw was Rock as a merch seller? I know he was a beast when it came to video games.
 

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During his run, how much of a draw was Rock as a merch seller? I know he was a beast when it came to video games.
He was one of their top merch sellers, but I don't think he was THE top seller, I think Austin held that spot for the most part.

As far as the video game stuff, well, internationally, he's the the most recognizable face when it comes to wrestling, even before he got into hollywood, so him being on the cover of the sd series is no surprise.
 

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I have to respectfully disagree. I don't think success in Hollywood really influences the WWE to push wrestlers and has negligible effect on popularity in wrestling.

Scorpion King did 180 mil on the box office, and the WWE got a BIG share of that, you don't think that had any influence on how they booked Rock??



I don't really think The Rock became any bigger due to his success in Hollywood . I still think his peak popularity came in 1999-2000 before he had much success in the box office.
In 1999-2000, he peaked when it comes to his wrestling popularity, and as big as he was back then, he's not as big as he was in 2012-2013. The guy became a global brand, and all the records that he shuttered in his last run is the proof to that.
 

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You are a good poster, but do not let your Austin fanboyism skew the numbers.
This is precisely why most people are sick and tired of the Rock vs Austin threads. I was without question, a Rock fan far more than an Austin fan. Having said that, I also value historical accuracy.

A vocal minority of posters are trying to revise history by saying "The Rock was the true star of the Attitude Era" which most of us know, is blatantly false.

Even as a Rock fan, I'm intelligent enough to admit that Austin was the biggest star of the Attitude era. The Rock caught up to Austin in the fall of 99, and was a close 2nd if one were to include the years 1997-2001.

However, this debate has been pushed off a cliff. Agree to disagree I guess...
 

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Scorpion King did 180 mil on the box office, and the WWE got a BIG share of that, you don't think that had any influence on how they booked Rock??
The Scorpion King was not released until after 2001. The Rock was not booked as WWE champion for most of 2000, in spite of him being everywhere in the mainstream (People magazine, SNL, guest appearances on hit sitcoms, TV Guide, etc).

It's not without historical precedent. Jesse Ventura played a major roles in movies of the late 80s but it did not effect his role in WWE. Let's just put it this way...if the WWE pushed performers based on their popularity outside the WWE, then why did they not put the belt on Mike Tyson?

WCW tried this with numerous celebrities in the late 90s, and with the exception of Dennis Rodman in 97, it was an unmitigated disaster. Besides, if WWE was influenced by a performers mainstream appeal, why was HHH arguably pushed more than the Rock by 2000?
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
He was one of their top merch sellers, but I don't think he was THE top seller, I think Austin held that spot for the most part.

As far as the video game stuff, well, internationally, he's the the most recognizable face when it comes to wrestling, even before he got into hollywood, so him being on the cover of the sd series is no surprise.
I think in 2000 he was the top merch seller.
 

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Rock was the top merch seller from late 99 until Nov 2000 when Austin came back, they were then equal. Rock caught Austin tin he fall of 99 and they were equal and by then the goal was to limit Austin;s apperances and get him to WM 2000 and have him drop the title to The Rock and then get his surgery. People have to remember the year 2000 was the first year Raw and Smackdown ere on every week, and was the last full year of WCW's existence. ALso Rock's original booking had Austin made it to WM 2000 was much stronger, he was going to win the Rumble in 2000, retire FOley at NWO 2000 and beat Austin at WM 2000. Rock's role in the Mummy returns is why he was booked weaker than HHH in 2000 and lost the title at Judgement Day and only won it back at KOTR 2000 by pinning Vince and not HHH.
 

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2000 Rock was top merch seller but don't forget he got to be on 2 wrestling shows a week in 2000 and WCW was the last year alive. Fans also wanted to see guys like Benoit, Angle, and Jericho go against Rock in 2000 while in 99 nobody bought Billy Gunn and Road Dogg and X Pac as threats to the Rock. The WWF was so much stronger in terms of a talent roster in 2000 than 1998 and 99.
 

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Rock was also stale in 2001. His 2000 character was toned down significantly form his fall 99 one and he had the misfortune of Austin not making it to WM 2000. Vince wanted Austin as his number 1 face in 2001, he knew Rock was getting Hollywood offers in 2000, that is why HHH retained at WM 2000 and won the belt back at Judgement Day 2000 and didn't lose the title at the KOTR 2000 by pinfall. A face Austin in 2001 does big business as he gets Jericho, Angle and Benoit. Fans also still liked E&C, the Hardy and the Dudleyz. Austin never had them during is 98-99 run.
If Vince wanted Austin.as a face Austin would of been a face. He has no problem telling people no. He did it with Hogan, he did with Cena. They both asked him to be heel and he said f no. Vince wanted Austin as a heel. My guess is he just put too much importance on his on screen relationship with Austin. He knew him vs Austin was beyond played out so let's see.how we do teamed up.

I know Austin has said that he wanted the heel turn but how believable is it that he wanted to team up with HHH? That was Vince.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
Rock was the top merch seller from late 99 until Nov 2000 when Austin came back, they were then equal. Rock caught Austin tin he fall of 99 and they were equal and by then the goal was to limit Austin;s apperances and get him to WM 2000 and have him drop the title to The Rock and then get his surgery. People have to remember the year 2000 was the first year Raw and Smackdown ere on every week, and was the last full year of WCW's existence. ALso Rock's original booking had Austin made it to WM 2000 was much stronger, he was going to win the Rumble in 2000, retire FOley at NWO 2000 and beat Austin at WM 2000. Rock's role in the Mummy returns is why he was booked weaker than HHH in 2000 and lost the title at Judgement Day and only won it back at KOTR 2000 by pinning Vince and not HHH.
I doubt that has anything to do with why Rock lost at Judgement Day. I assume Vince knew Rock would leave for two weeks to shoot a movie in Morocco. Rock just had the habit to not politick when he should. He was bigger and better than HHH.
 

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During his run, how much of a draw was Rock as a merch seller? I know he was a beast when it came to video games.
One of the biggest of all time. I've posted WWF shopzone archive figures many times here. From mid 1999 he outsold Austin and everyone else till late 2001 when "What" Shirts took over.
He was one of their top merch sellers, but I don't think he was THE top seller, I think Austin held that spot for the most part.

As far as the video game stuff, well, internationally, he's the the most recognizable face when it comes to wrestling, even before he got into hollywood, so him being on the cover of the sd series is no surprise.
He was the top merch seller from mid 1999 to late 2001.
This is precisely why most people are sick and tired of the Rock vs Austin threads. I was without question, a Rock fan far more than an Austin fan. Having said that, I also value historical accuracy.

A vocal minority of posters are trying to revise history by saying "The Rock was the true star of the Attitude Era" which most of us know, is blatantly false.

Even as a Rock fan, I'm intelligent enough to admit that Austin was the biggest star of the Attitude era. The Rock caught up to Austin in the fall of 99, and was a close 2nd if one were to include the years 1997-2001.

However, this debate has been pushed off a cliff. Agree to disagree I guess...
Buddy, you claimed that Austin has sold most overall merch which is factually wrong as Cena has.

You also claimed that Austin has most overall buys, where I once again corrected you that it's The Rock which holds the record of main eventing most high drawing PPVs. These figures are objective and not up to the matter of debate.

Personally, I think and also all the numbers that Rock surpassed Austin back in the AE itself and was the biggest star of WWF from mid 1999 to mid 2002.
OP because he was the face of the company thats why
/Thread
If Vince wanted Austin.as a face Austin would of been a face. He has no problem telling people no. He did it with Hogan, he did with Cena. They both asked him to be heel and he said f no. Vince wanted Austin as a heel. My guess is he just put too much importance on his on screen relationship with Austin. He knew him vs Austin was beyond played out so let's see.how we do teamed up.

I know Austin has said that he wanted the heel turn but how believable is it that he wanted to team up with HHH? That was Vince.
Great post👍

Why people don't get this simple fact is beyond me🤔🤔
I doubt that has anything to do with why Rock lost at Judgement Day. I assume Vince knew Rock would leave for two weeks to shoot a movie in Morocco. Rock just had the habit to not politick when he should. He was bigger and better than HHH.
Arguing with him is futile, soon you'll know why🤣
 

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The Scorpion King was not released until after 2001. The Rock was not booked as WWE champion for most of 2000, in spite of him being everywhere in the mainstream (People magazine, SNL, guest appearances on hit sitcoms, TV Guide, etc).

The scorpion king was released in april of 2002, they finished shooting the movie somewhere in july of 2001, around the same time when Rock made his return, and it's also around the same time when they started pushing him hard. So yeah, that did play a factor....and Hogan and Ventura never played a starring role in a big production movie, so bad analogy.



...and when he made his return in 2011-2013 he was even more protected. He won 5 matches and lost only once. SO again, his success in hollywood was/is definitely a factor.
 

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The scorpion king was released in april of 2002, they finished shooting the movie somewhere in july of 2001, around the same time when Rock made his return, and it's also around the same time when they started pushing him hard. So yeah, that did play a factor....and Hogan and Ventura never played a starring role in a big production movie, so bad analogy.
I will only say this once...

NOBODY CARES

In 2011-13, Rock was not 1/10 the star he was between 1999-2001. Want to know why? 85% of people who followed wrestling during the attitude era, left and never looked back. This mass exodus of wrestling fans began after WM18. Just look at the ratings in 2011-13, compared to 1999-2011. Instead of 10 million fans watching wrestling ever week, only 2.5 million (at most) were watching it 15 years later.

Under your analogy, I guess wrestling should have featured Leonardo DiCaprio vs Jennifer Lopez, since they were arguably the hottest young actors in 2001. I will just say this once, since you can't comprehend the real world:

Wrestlers do not get over due to their success in Hollywood. If that were true, HHH would have beeen a mid-carder, and the WWE would ahve put the belt on Leonardo DiCaprio, Mark Wahlburg, and Johnny Depp.
 

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I will only say this once...

NOBODY CARES

In 2011-13, Rock was not 1/10 the star he was between 1999-2001. Want to know why? 85% of people who followed wrestling during the attitude era, left and never looked back. This mass exodus of wrestling fans began after WM18. Just look at the ratings in 2011-13, compared to 1999-2011. Instead of 10 million fans watching wrestling ever week, only 2.5 million (at most) were watching it 15 years later.
If you don't care then why are you on this thread? Hypocrisy at its best. God! Rock being the biggest drawing card above Austin and all has got into the nerve of so many people that they get upset at any mention of related topics. Stay out FFS if you find this topic boring! As simple as that.
 

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If you don't care then why are you on this thread? Hypocrisy at its best. God! Rock being the biggest drawing card above Austin and all has got into the nerve of so many people that they get upset at any mention of related topics. Stay out FFS if you find this topic boring! As simple as that.
This topic has been beaten to death, and it has gotten to the point where Rock fans will repeat over and over that it was the Rock who was the real star of the Attitude Era. A vocal minority of Rock fans are obsessed on this false narrative that Rock was bigger than Austin during the attitude era.

You opinion has been noted. However, do you really need to post 1,000 times about the same thing, which is historical revisionism? I am pretty sure most people are getting sick of the Rock was a better draw than Austin, considering I have yet to see a thread arguing Austin was a bigger draw than The Rock during the Attitude era.

Austin built the house. He laid the foundation, built it from the ground up. Rock did the roof. Does that mean Rock gets credit for building the whole house, since he technically completed it, even though all he really did was put shingles on the roof?
 

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This topic has been beaten to death, and it has gotten to the point where Rock fans will repeat over and over that it was the Rock who was the real star of the Attitude Era. A vocal minority of Rock fans are obsessed on this false narrative that Rock was bigger than Austin during the attitude era.

You opinion has been noted. However, do you really need to post 1,000 times about the same thing, which is historical revisionism? I am pretty sure most people are getting sick of the Rock was a better draw than Austin, considering I have yet to see a thread arguing Austin was a bigger draw than The Rock during the Attitude era.

Austin built the house. He laid the foundation, built it from the ground up. Rock did the roof. Does that mean Rock gets credit for building the whole house, since he technically completed it, even though all he really did was put shingles on the roof?
Rock being bigger draw than Austin is NOT a matter of opinion. Everyone that knows numbers, knows this for a fact. But your point is well noted too. And Austin does deserve credit for starting the boom on WWF's behalf. However, Austin may have started the fire, but it was The Rock who burnt brighter.

Even Dave Meltzer agrees with this:

 

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Buddy, you claimed that Austin has sold most overall merch which is factually wrong as Cena has.
I said Austin sold the most merchandise in the Attitude era, which was during his peak. I don't really care what happened after 2002, as wrestling lost 80% of its fans from the end of the Monday Night War, and was never really in the mainstream again, except for the Chris Benoit tragedy.

You also claimed that Austin has most overall buys, where I once again corrected you that it's The Rock which holds the record of main eventing most high drawing PPVs. These figures are objective and not up to the matter of debate.
It's impossible to tell who really had the most overall PPV buys, as most people bought WWE PPV's for the strength of the overall card. During Rock's most successful year, people were buying PPV's to see other matches and entertainers. The same thing can be said with Austin. You can't prove or disprove who was the driving force in terms of PPV buyrates, since there are too many intangibles.

Personally, I think and also all the numbers that Rock surpassed Austin back in the AE itself and was the biggest star of WWF from mid 1999 to mid 2002.
How can the Rock be the biggest star of 2001, considering he missed 1/2 the year? That's like saying Austin was the biggest star of 2000 since he worked 4 months of the year. When one wrestler was out of action, the other wrestler became the top draw. It did not matter that Austin was a heel for months, as he was still the top draw of 2001.
 

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I said Austin sold the most merchandise in the Attitude era, which was during his peak. I don't really care what happened after 2002, as wrestling lost 80% of its fans from the end of the Monday Night War, and was never really in the mainstream again, except for the Chris Benoit tragedy.
Dude you said this:

As much as I haven't cared for Hogan over the last 20 years, I think that is highly debatable. In overall merchandise sales and PPV buys, Austin is the all-time leader, but back in the 80s the WWE did not sell remotely close to what they were selling in the late 90s.
You said in overall merchandise and PPV buys Austin is the all time leader, no where did you mention peak or AE.



It's impossible to tell who really had the most overall PPV buys, as most people bought WWE PPV's for the strength of the overall card. During Rock's most successful year, people were buying PPV's to see other matches and entertainers. The same thing can be said with Austin. You can't prove or disprove who was the driving force in terms of PPV buyrates, since there are too many intangibles.
LOL, on one hand you are giving credit to Austin as "the all time leader in PPV sales", on the other you are saying it is impossible to say who has most buys? Hypocrisy at its very best.

Actually we can say who drew most buys by looking at how many main events they were which drew over 500k buys. And Rock destroys Austin there without any mercy.



How can the Rock be the biggest star of 2001, considering he missed 1/2 the year? That's like saying Austin was the biggest star of 2000 since he worked 4 months of the year. When one wrestler was out of action, the other wrestler became the top draw. It did not matter that Austin was a heel for months, as he was still the top draw of 2001.
Despite missing close to 4 months, Rock was WWF's numero uno babyface that year.
 
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