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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
The claim is that "people didn't want to boo Austin, and that they spit in everyone's face for messing up a 4 year storyline between Austin/Mcmahon by making them pals" in regards to Wrestlemania 17.


Whoever says that to me shows they didn't watch during the Attitude era.

Austin/Mcmahon was long done in 1999, it was called the "End of an era" at Fully Loaded 1999. they didn't feud again, there was no more Austin/Mcmahon rivalry. apart from a few stunners here and there, there was no feud.

Austin even helped Mcmahon win the WWF title in September of 1999 and Mcmahon helped enter Austin into the Royal Rumble in 2001(even counted 3 for Austin on 1st Smackdown of 2001)

This idea that they ended the rivalry makes no sense to anyone who watched during the Attitude era, because that rivalry definitively ended in 1999. anyone who tells you otherwise wasn't watching, go watch the shows back yourself or ask someone who lived it.


As far as getting booed, Austin was booed the very next night on Raw in his own homestate of texas once the heel turn was confirmed. the reason for the heel turn was that he had gotten stale by the end of 1999, apart from some great return pops in late 2000, he needed to be refreshed, which the Mania heel turn did and contrary to IWC belief it was well recieved.(Hence why he was more over with the Kurt Angle skits than he had even been since 1999)

It was the Kurt Angle comedic duo that got him cheered again, that's the way his character should've gone, instead they turned him back to old stone Cold then back heel within weeks, he never regained momentum like pre-1999, aside from the Old Stone Cold return on Raw and brief "what?" meme.
 

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The heel turn led to a direct drop in business and pretty much everyone involved (including Austin) admits it was a mistake

I personally enjoyed it, but it was definitely a mistake in hindsight
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Every metric plummeted the moment Austin turned heel.

If you believe that's coincidence, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
The heel turn led to a direct drop in business and pretty much everyone involved (including Austin) admits it was a mistake

I personally enjoyed it, but it was definitely a mistake in hindsight

Rock left(who was face of the company by this point since 99) cause the ratings & house show plummet, Austin's heel turn retained certain viewers/demographics.

No one was saying Austin's heel turn caused a ratings plummet. I know for a fact that Rock's leaving plummeted the ratings it was even on the news, then Triple H's leaving caused them to start the invasion early.
 

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The Fastest of the Fastest of Jamaican Sprinters
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Rock left(who was face of the company by this point since 99), Austin's heel turn retained viewers.

No one was saying Austin's heel turn caused a ratings plummet. I know for a fact that Rock's leaving plummeted the ratings it was even on the news, then Triple H's leaving caused them to start the invasion.
Please provide evidence to support your argument.
 

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OP, you're making it too obvious who you are. And if you are that person, you made it clear on previous accounts that you were born in 1994. So all this "if you were watching at the time" schtick is pretty damn funny.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Please provide evidence to support your argument.
Ratings immediately nosediving following the April 2nd 2001 Raw and Smackdown where Rock was suspended. if it was Austin's heel turn explain the ratings full point bump(not a mere post PPV bump, a full point 4.7 to 5.7) on the next nights Raw.

People actually tuned in to see Rock vs a heel Austin, therefore heel turn didn't affect ratings, Rock going to hollywood made ratings fell.

Ratings didn't fall when Austin was completely absent in 2000, it's illogical for ratings to fall because of a heel turn involving someone who they didn't feud with for 2 years at that point. no heel turn resulted in ratings decline, as a matter of fact every single major heel turn resulted in ratings bump(Hogan 96, Mcmahon 97, Rock 98)

And before you claim they didn't want to boo him, his own home state of texas booed him against The Rock on the April 2nd Raw.
 

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Jesus Christ, this guy at it again.

Just be honest pal, this is another thinly veiled attempt to take shots at SCSA to praise your boy Rock.

Yes of course a megastar in The Rock leaving is a valid reason that caused ratings going down a bit, you'd have to be insane however not to think the Austin turn brought them further and further down. No one wanted to see Austin as a heel again, especially what he became in playing songs and hugging Vince. It was horrible booking.
 

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Vince vs Austin did not end in 1999. It kept brewing under surface the whole time. Vince turning baby for short periods in 1999-2002 does not change the fact

Austin comes out at backlash 2000 and stops Vince screwing rock over with put fans into frenzy.

Fact is Austin turning heel was the only reason business fell. Nobody wanted to see that. Millions of fans never trusted WWE again. If rock leaving was reason people would have returned once he came back and outside short tv bump it didn't happen. By October 2001 with rock there and top babyface live attendance was half what it had been in January 2001 (12k vs 6k)
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Vince vs Austin did not end in 1999.
Yes it did, Fully Loaded 1999, End of an era, they never feuded again until temporarily in late 2001 when he was feuding with him on a weekly basis with Booker T.

It kept brewing under surface the whole time.
No it didn't, he helped Mcmahon win the title in 1999, Mcmahon counted 3 for #1 Contenders match, Mcmahon entered him in 2001 Royal Rumble.

The rivalry Austin was having was with Triple H, from 99-01, Mcmahon/Austin was of the past by this point.

Vince turning baby for short periods in 1999-2002 does not change the fact
Babyface or Heel, Mcmahon was not feuding with Austin, that storyline was done. a stunner and a segment here and there doesn't change that fact.

Austin helped Mcmahon win the title and no one had a problem with it or said "How could he help his rival after all these years" because that story was ended at Fully Loaded.

Austin comes out at backlash 2000 and stops Vince screwing rock over with put fans into frenzy.
That's like claiming Rock/Triple H continued after Summer of 2000, because they had matches and interacted or that

Fact is Austin turning heel was the only reason business fell.
Rock leaving had no effect according to you? The biggest star who had surpassed Austin back in 1999 had zero effect on business?

You either have absolutely no clue on this subject or you're lying to me, which is it?
 

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At the time people still wanted to cheer Austin. He was still super over as a Babyface. Plus they didn’t have another good Babyface to take his spot. Rock left after Mania for a while and that left Angle who was a great wrestler but just ok in that role. You had Jericho and Benoit but none of them were at Austin’s level of popularity.
 

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I personally never tire of this topic because I love to hear all the different opinions on why the heel turn at Wrestlemania 17 did not work out. In fact a few years ago I did a video on my channel discussing this very topic with a different perspective as to why ..based on my surroundings at the time and reflecting back and then being able to see another factor as to why it failed. I will put the the video in this post...but I will explain why I felt it failed.

In 1997 we saw Austin bleed and refuse to quit, that was the moment Austin turned face and showed a main event level of toughness that everyone could admire...but one other thing happened in 1997. The Summer slam event where Owen Hart unintentionally injured Steve Austin and he was paralysed on live ppv...real life happened right before our very eyes and I know it scared a lot of fans but also made Austin a somewhat sympathetic character on tv...remember that point.

He bounced back, adjusted his style and became the hottest star in the business but in late 1999 he had to be removed from programming as his Neck worsened and required surgery. There was a famous interview he did in 1999 post surgery in his home with Jim Ross. Steve looked really bad, had a hard time speaking and appeared to be very vulnerable...the reaction at my school and youth club to that was one of high sympathy people in my neck of the woods genuinely felt sorry for him and even wondered if he would ever be back..that interview further water a seed that was planted in 1997 when he was injured at ss 97. When he came out at Backlash to help The Rock he looked awful and appeared to be in pain, he could barely move and struggled to get up on his own feet..recall he was struggling to get up after talking trash to Mr Mcmahon. Again the reaction in my area at the time was one of great concern and many fan's felt like he should never of been out there when he was still clearly in a lot of pain.

The come back happens and fans are elated to see him return and a big part of the story outside of the who ran over stone cold, was the story of a man making a comeback, can our guy come back from a legit career threatening injury that in the end cut his career short and win the big one? He wins the rumble and goes onto wrestlemania in his home state in the main event against The Rock.....look at all those ingredients that I just mentioned and now ask yourself was a heel turn even necessary and even a good fit when Austin is about to complete the come back of all come backs?

 

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Discussion Starter #16
I personally never tire of this topic because I love to hear all the different opinions on why the heel turn at Wrestlemania 17 did not work out. In fact a few years ago I did a video on my channel discussing this very topic with a different perspective as to why ..based on my surroundings at the time and reflecting back and then being able to see another factor as to why it failed. I will put the the video in this post...but I will explain why I felt it failed.

In 1997 we saw Austin bleed and refuse to quit, that was the moment Austin turned face and showed a main event level of toughness that everyone could admire...but one other thing happened in 1997. The Summer slam event where Owen Hart unintentionally injured Steve Austin and he was paralysed on live ppv...real life happened right before our very eyes and I know it scared a lot of fans but also made Austin a somewhat sympathetic character on tv...remember that point.

He bounced back, adjusted his style and became the hottest star in the business but in late 1999 he had to be removed from programming as his Neck worsened and required surgery. There was a famous interview he did in 1999 post surgery in his home with Jim Ross. Steve looked really bad, had a hard time speaking and appeared to be very vulnerable...the reaction at my school and youth club to that was one of high sympathy people in my neck of the woods genuinely felt sorry for him and even wondered if he would ever be back..that interview further water a seed that was planted in 1997 when he was injured at ss 97. When he came out at Backlash to help The Rock he looked awful and appeared to be in pain, he could barely move and struggled to get up on his own feet..recall he was struggling to get up after talking trash to Mr Mcmahon. Again the reaction in my area at the time was one of great concern and many fan's felt like he should never of been out there when he was still clearly in a lot of pain.

The come back happens and fans are elated to see him return and a big part of the story outside of the who ran over stone cold, was the story of a man making a comeback, can our guy come back from a legit career threatening injury that in the end cut his career short and win the big one? He wins the rumble and goes onto wrestlemania in his home state in the main event against The Rock.....look at all those ingredients that I just mentioned and now ask yourself was a heel turn even necessary and even a good fit when Austin is about to complete the come back of all come backs?
He came back as the same pre-2000 character. you have to go back to 1999 where he was getting a bit stale and they were gonna turn him heel. now while he did get huge return pops, after a few months it was back to where he was in late 1999.

And the heel turn worked, he was actually booed, thoroughly, go watch the April 2nd, 2001 Raw.
 

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I personally never tire of this topic because I love to hear all the different opinions on why the heel turn at Wrestlemania 17 did not work out. In fact a few years ago I did a video on my channel discussing this very topic with a different perspective as to why ..based on my surroundings at the time and reflecting back and then being able to see another factor as to why it failed. I will put the the video in this post...but I will explain why I felt it failed.

In 1997 we saw Austin bleed and refuse to quit, that was the moment Austin turned face and showed a main event level of toughness that everyone could admire...but one other thing happened in 1997. The Summer slam event where Owen Hart unintentionally injured Steve Austin and he was paralysed on live ppv...real life happened right before our very eyes and I know it scared a lot of fans but also made Austin a somewhat sympathetic character on tv...remember that point.

He bounced back, adjusted his style and became the hottest star in the business but in late 1999 he had to be removed from programming as his Neck worsened and required surgery. There was a famous interview he did in 1999 post surgery in his home with Jim Ross. Steve looked really bad, had a hard time speaking and appeared to be very vulnerable...the reaction at my school and youth club to that was one of high sympathy people in my neck of the woods genuinely felt sorry for him and even wondered if he would ever be back..that interview further water a seed that was planted in 1997 when he was injured at ss 97. When he came out at Backlash to help The Rock he looked awful and appeared to be in pain, he could barely move and struggled to get up on his own feet..recall he was struggling to get up after talking trash to Mr Mcmahon. Again the reaction in my area at the time was one of great concern and many fan's felt like he should never of been out there when he was still clearly in a lot of pain.

The come back happens and fans are elated to see him return and a big part of the story outside of the who ran over stone cold, was the story of a man making a comeback, can our guy come back from a legit career threatening injury that in the end cut his career short and win the big one? He wins the rumble and goes onto wrestlemania in his home state in the main event against The Rock.....look at all those ingredients that I just mentioned and now ask yourself was a heel turn even necessary and even a good fit when Austin is about to complete the come back of all come backs?

Well then WF has been entertaining you for the last decade. Thank goodness for the revival of this debate.

I am glad you enjoy.
 

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Austin and McMahon had teamed together various times before the heel turn, but it was ignored by WWE for obvious reasons.

I looked at the ratings a few years ago, the heel turn didn't really have any bearing on them. The WWE ratings had been falling since the start of 2000 really. There wasn't anything much for Austin to do as a face.

Personally, I thought heel Austin in 2001 was great with Angle some of his improv playing kumbaya on the guitar was great.
 

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He came back as the same pre-2000 character. you have to go back to 1999 where he was getting a bit stale and they were gonna turn him heel. now while he did get huge return pops, after a few months it was back to where he was in late 1999.

And the heel turn worked, he was actually booed, thoroughly, go watch the April 2nd, 2001 Raw.
The fan's reacted that night and it was aided by the alliance of Triple H to, but then I recall reactions not being as strong as the company had hoped, hence the reason for the angle with the hardyz and Lita where they beat them to a pulp. I recall after that thing's going south a bit and then improving when he wrestled Chris Benoit. Then when he started to turn back for that brief period he got that ridiculous and crazy crowd reaction when he turned back to a babyface to build up the invasion angle.... I will say though that when he turned the second time that heel turn with the Alliance clicked far more
 

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2001 heel Austin was a typical heel, despite being booked as an almost unstoppable yet loveable rebel for new audiences, cheating, unable to win matches on his own, relying on stablemates, an evil boss in his corner, the works

Austin was always skirting the line of good guy and bad guy but falling on one side of that fence, the side that made him into JUST MOUSTAHCE TWIRLING BAD GUY was what the new audiences really didn't want to see

it was a miscalculation to make up for aforementioned departures, injuries, lack of forward planning and changes to the way they did business in 2001...



everything changed that year...
 
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