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No, heel does not necessitate being a wrestler.

Bobby Heenan was one of the biggest heels of the 80's, he was retired and a manager.

Triple H was the wrestler of the heel faction, but that faction was led by Mcmahons and the top heel was Vince Mcmahon and Stephanie Mcmahon, later Kurt Angle gets added to list of top heels, Triple H was below them.
And no one would ever say Bobby Heenan was the biggest heel of the 80's. They're going to say Savage, Andre, Roddy, Dibiase. Bobby isn't wrestling Hogan. There's a limit to what he can do.
 

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From what great sources are you drawing this information? Triple H spent half the Attitude era as a mid card guy and a babyface. Anyone who says he's the top heel of that specific era (Mania 13 to 17?) doesn't know what they're talking about. I don't know about Angle, but certainly Rock and Vince both have stake to that claim.
You know what? Heel Rock as the corporate champion IS getting overlooked here. People love Rock so much they forgot he was HEEL champion going against Austin at WM 15 lol.

An argument could be made Rock from Survivor Series 98 to WM 15 was a bigger heel than HHH in 2000 from Rumble to Backlash(which I say is the peak heel champ HHH).

The thing with Rock though is that he had his share of fans which muddies the water for his heel run that time. Some may even extend that heel run to all of 98 since his short babyface turn was apart of him being heel.

You made a good point bringing up Rock.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
And no one would ever say Bobby Heenan was the biggest heel of the 80's. They're going to say Savage, Andre, Roddy, Dibiase. Bobby isn't wrestling Hogan. There's a limit to what he can do.
It's an example to show you don't need to be a wrestler to be a heel, hence why I wrote ONE of the biggest, not the top.

In Vince and Stephanie's case they were the biggest heels, who happened to not be a wrestlers.
 

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You know what? Heel Rock as the corporate champion IS getting overlooked here. People love Rock so much they forgot he was HEEL champion going against Austin at WM 15 lol.

An argument could be made Rock from Survivor Series 98 to WM 15 was a bigger heel than HHH in 2000 from Rumble to Backlash(which I say is the peak heel champ HHH).

The thing with Rock though is that he had his share of fans which muddies the water for his heel run that time. Some may even extend that heel run to all of 98 since his short babyface turn was apart of him being heel.

You made a good point bringing up Rock.
As a heel

NOD Rock >>> Corporate Rock
 

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Vince was by far the biggest heel of the AE.
 

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HHH was the top wrestling heel. I don't know how Kurt Angle even qualifies when he wasn't even on the main roster for half of the Attitude Era and didn't win his first world title until the AE was pretty much winding down. He was largely a mid-carder/upper mid-carder for most of the AE.
 

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I know some will think this is derogatory towards HHH, but it is actually the truth. This is not to say he didn't grow in his position either.

LACKEY: According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the French word referred to a kind of foot soldier in the 15th century, prior to the word being taken into English. By the time we borrowed the word into English, it had another meaning: "footman." A footman in the 16th century was a servant who either attended a rider, or who ran alongside or in front of his master's or mistress's carriage.

From a storyline standpoint he does fit the word. HHH was even called out by HBK for being his lackey aka "kickstand". He went from HBK's lackey to DX leader who had enough of HBK that he kicked him out.

Then from there he wanted to break free of DX and Chyna in 1999. That didn't work out to well he latched onto the boss' daughter by basically raping her into marriage or so it originally seemed. Then he becomes champion and has the Mcmahon family in collusion to keep the strap away from Foley, Rock, and Big Show at WM 16.

From there on though HHH was a made man and super heel and I believe this is where he gets praise for being the GOAT WWF Champion heel (I mean being the first ever to walk out heel champ at Mania is a legend for that alone). Billy Graham may say otherwise though. There were some people who actually thought he would beat Taker at WM 17 because he became so dominant.



Ties in perfectly with my post above. Being a lackey is also heeldom and tie that into what you are saying and it makes sense with the presentation.
He was Shawn's lackey in 97 that's for sure in real life and in wrestling but there really isn't a difference between the Corporate champion Rock and HHH being Stephanie's husband. Rock wasn't more over as a heel than Vince McMahon and Vince even started his reign by saying this guy will gladly kiss my ass. He's the puppet champ. You want to talk lackey Rock was the definition of it. Austin v Vince flat out carried the WM 15 program.

I'm not saying that to hate on Rock that's part of being a heel. It's kind of funny that people have that bar for HHH but not everyone else in the era. Like Kurt wasn't getting heat for being Stephanie's boy toy. A lot of the hate HHH sees is nothing more than him not being the fun heel as well as people resenting his backstage politics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
HHH was the top wrestling heel. I don't know how Kurt Angle even qualifies when he wasn't even on the main roster for half of the Attitude Era and didn't win his first world title until the AE was pretty much winding down
No he was not, Vince Mcmahon was the top heel in professional wrestling, then you had Stephanie Mcmahon and Kurt Angle.

And as far as Kurt Angle, he won the belt towards the middle of the era in 2000, when the era ended in 2002, Triple H wasn't even a heel anymore he was doing his failed face run and Kurt Angle had more than 2 years as a heel during the era.
 

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No he was not, Vince Mcmahon was the top heel in professional wrestling, then you had Stephanie Mcmahon and Kurt Angle.

And as far as Kurt Angle, he won the belt towards the middle of the era in 2000, when the era ended in 2002, Triple H wasn't even a heel anymore he was doing his failed face run and Kurt Angle had more than 2 years as a heel during the era.
The attitude era ended at Wrestlemania X7. 2002 is damn sure not the attitude era.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 · (Edited)
The attitude era ended at Wrestlemania X7. 2002 is damn sure not the attitude era.
The attitude era didn't end at Wrestlemania 17, that's just ridiculous, you really do need to rewatch that era. April 2001-March 2002 is the same exact style, format, pace, it's the same shit as it had been since late 1999 when Kreski took over.
 

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The attitude era didn't end at Wrestlemania 17, that's just ridiculous, you really do need to rewatch that era. April 2002-March 2002 is the same exact style, format, pace, it's the same shit as it had been since late 1999 when Kreski took over.

I've always said that that the AE ended with the draft. New belt, new Raw stage, new intro, new outro,....just everything felt different after the draft.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
I've always said that that the AE ended with the draft. New belt, new Raw stage, new intro, new outro,....just everything felt different after the draft.
Where's the Wrestlemania 17 idea come from?

It was the same shit for an entire year after, hardcore division, same cast, same soap opera crash TV style, one roster, etc Only thing they had different was an invasion storyline, but that's a new storyline, there's always gonna be different storylines, the Invasion was a pure WWF attitude storyline too, Mike Awesome isn't invading MSG and winning the hardcore title in the Ruthless Aggression era for example.
 

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The attitude era didn't end at Wrestlemania 17, that's just ridiculous, you really do need to rewatch that era. April 2002-March 2002 is the same exact style, format, pace, it's the same shit as it had been since late 1999 when Kreski took over.
It's not ridiculous. That's been the general consensus online for well over ten years. Nobody is saying the style of programming shifted overnight; but the Monday Night Wars ending the very next day signifies the end of that era for a lot of fans.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
That's been the general consensus online for well over ten years.
I don't care about the last 10 years, we're talking about 20 years ago.

Nobody is saying the style of programming shifted overnight; but the Monday Night Wars ending the very next day signifies the end of that era for a lot of fans.
Monday Night War was going on before the attitude era.
 

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I don't care about the last 10 years, we're talking about 20 years ago.
Yeah and 20 years ago you had the end of the Monday Night Wars, Stone Cold Steve Austin turning heel and the invasion storyline about to take place. You're telling me those things don't matter? These are all reasons that people have given for that being the end of the era, and understandably so.

Monday Night War was going on before the attitude era.
Never said it wasn't. But as you know, being on the losing end of that battle for an extended period of time is what led to the gradual transition into the attitude era.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Yeah and 20 years ago you had the end of the Monday Night Wars, Stone Cold Steve Austin turning heel and the invasion storyline about to take place. You're telling me those things don't matter? These are all reasons that people have given for that being the end of the era, and understandably so.
Yet that's not the end of the era, the Attitude era was around for another year.

One roster
Hardcore title 24/7
Two man power trip
Invasion storyline
Austin and Debra
Austin/Angle comedy duo
Austin hugging Vince
Old Stone Cold return
Rock's return
Austin/Angle
Kurt Angle and the milk truck
Angle winning the title after 9/11
Survivor Series 2001 winner take all conclusion to WWF vs WCW
New Smackdown fist shatter set
Austin What? character
Chris Jericho Undisputed champion
Triple H's return
NWO arrival
Taker/Flair
Hogan running Rock over with a semi truck.
Rock vs Hogan Wrestlemania 18
Hardcore title changes at WM 18


All that's Attitude era and classic Attitude era moments I might add, whoever thinks that's not was not watching back then and shouldn't be taken serious.

After the draft, following brand split they had this transitional period where guys like Hogan, Austin, Rock left, and they changed the entire look of the show, the pacing, retired attitude era belts, tropes and gimmicks. Then we have a new era, what kids now call the "Ruthless Aggression era"

None of that shit listed was from the Ruthless Aggression era or the transitional period, April 2001-March 2002 is not apart of the Ruthless Aggression era or transitional period, that's the same era and style from late 1999 when Kreski took over, the skit skit skit, crash TV, SNL formatted show.
 

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Where's the Wrestlemania 17 idea come from?

It was the same shit for an entire year after, hardcore division, same cast, same soap opera crash TV style, one roster, etc Only thing they had different was an invasion storyline, but that's a new storyline, there's always gonna be different storylines, the Invasion was a pure WWF attitude storyline too, Mike Awesome isn't invading MSG and winning the hardcore title in the Ruthless Aggression era for example.

I think a lot of people associate the Attitude Era with "Austin vs McMahon" program(which ended at Wm 17).

In fact, the WWE kept closing out their shows with the same old Attitude Era outro up until april-may of 2002(draft).
 

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If you didn't main event a WM you have no case for top face or heel. Kurt didn't get his until well after the AE ended while HHH became the 1st heel to win one.

Vince decides who the top guys are and you can cry about his choices all you want but that's what it is.
 

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He was Shawn's lackey in 97 that's for sure in real life and in wrestling but there really isn't a difference between the Corporate champion Rock and HHH being Stephanie's husband. Rock wasn't more over as a heel than Vince McMahon and Vince even started his reign by saying this guy will gladly kiss my ass. He's the puppet champ. You want to talk lackey Rock was the definition of it. Austin v Vince flat out carried the WM 15 program.

I'm not saying that to hate on Rock that's part of being a heel. It's kind of funny that people have that bar for HHH but not everyone else in the era. Like Kurt wasn't getting heat for being Stephanie's boy toy. A lot of the hate HHH sees is nothing more than him not being the fun heel as well as people resenting his backstage politics.
In agreement with most of this. Vince Mcmahon was no doubt the most hated, but I see the argument some are making that he was not an actual wrestler leading him to not being a heel in that regard like say a HHH. Although Mcmahon did have his fair share of matches with Austin, HHH, and Hogan, no one really has him pegged as a real wrestler.

The Rock was not more hated than Vince, BUT he was hated because of Vince long before his joining the Corporation. The Rock was getting heat because people saw him being pushed for his looks and family lineage before his time which is why he got booed out of buildings during his first reign as IC champ.

A segment of fans believed Rock got too much too soon and he got bashed for it. He was like Lex Express all over again to some. The old 80's style babyface kissing babies and fans seeing through it as a PR stunt to have fans get behind a new face that was getting pushed to the moon. The company was smart to play off this in 1998 (Corporate face chosen by company, but rejected by audience) by just putting him with Mcmahon to play off that sentiment. It's a reason it worked so well although he started to gain respect from hardcore fans for his improvement.

HHH falls into the same category. People saw him as HBK's sidekick and not deserving of his position since he was clinging to the world champ in 97. Regardless of whenever he hooked up with Stephanie, fans just believed he was getting corporate favor from either the top of the game or from office. His heat worked very well because of it.

Kurt Angle I saw a bit differently. His heel heat was more fun old school heat of just wanting to hate the smirk athlete who thought he was superior to everyone else in the ring and in the stands. The fans did respect him for his accolades and knew he was deserving a push or top matches(although in reality he was green in some aspects).

The Rock and HHH imo had at points fans REALLY not liking them feeling politics were being done to have them in certain positions. That was a crux for their heel heat initially.
 
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