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Discussion Starter #1
I realize this is general and shit, but I use to be huge into indy wrestling; did a lot of writing on that and puroresu, etc. Anyway, I very much lost my taste for it after Gabe got fired from ROH and it became hard to see quality stuff live (I'm in Boston, and I guess I just found it hard being into something I couldn't even see in person.)

But anyway, after a chance encounter led to me discovering both CM Punk and Bryan Danielson were WWE world champions, I felt a bit nostalgic. Checked out a few recent matches, and I must say, I'm intrigued.

So, from the board, I ask a few questions: What have I missed, generally speaking? Who are the new names replacing people like Nigel McGuinness or Samoa Joe? It seems like Richards and Generico have kind of inherited Dragon's position as 'King of the Indies', that accurate? What matches from the past few years have held up as undisputed classics? Have ROH and DGUSA moved forward in the past few years (business wise) or backwards? And why the hell don't those two and EVOLVE all merge and just get it over with already?

Thanks.
 

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I'll allow people with more knowledge to answer the rest of your questions, but DGUSA/EVOLVE are officially merged and they use EVOLVE to build up angles for DGUSA. They just simply have a sort of split in that they still use the ranking system in EVOLVE and try to keep that whole vision still there while treating it also as a show to advance DGUSA.
 

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So, from the board, I ask a few questions: What have I missed, generally speaking? Who are the new names replacing people like Nigel McGuinness or Samoa Joe? It seems like Richards and Generico have kind of inherited Dragon's position as 'King of the Indies', that accurate? What matches from the past few years have held up as undisputed classics? Have ROH and DGUSA moved forward in the past few years (business wise) or backwards? And why the hell don't those two and EVOLVE all merge and just get it over with already?

Thanks.
just don't bother looking into it, you'll save yourself a lot of dissapointment, money and headaches

Davey Richards is the closest to replacing the american dragon on the indies
 

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There is a lot of talent out there, but none of them have reached the level of a danielson/mcguiness yet. A big problem is that every time someone becomes a big indy star they are immediatly signed by WWE (Jon Moxley, Tyler Black, Claudio Castagnoli, Chris Hero).

Some random big names in the indies right now:
- El Generico
- Kevin Steen
- Davey Richards
- Briscoe Brothers
- Prince Devitt
- Johnny Gargano
- Young Bucks
- Eddie Edwards
- Roderick Strong
- PAC

Future Prospects:
- Adam COle
- Kyle O'Reilly
- Mike Bennett
- Uhaa Nation
- Zack Sabre Jr
- Tommaso Ciampa
- Willy Mack

All great wrestlers that might not be at the level of Punk/Danielson, they have consistent great matches.
 

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I dont have lot knowledge but there are my opinions.

Davey look like the top guy in the indies. His matches with Edwards ( wasnt pleased some non-selling spots tho) , Roderick Strong and Elgin were very good but not Danielson level.

Kevin Steene by far the most interesting wrestler in the scene IMO. His run, performace and build up is great. And I think he will take the title at Border Wars.

Kyle O'Reilly and Adam Cole are rising as two superb&promising talents. And there is a Mike Bennett. He is some fresh style in ROH. Its like WWE superstar came down to wrestle in a ballroom at his free times. With Brutal Bob and of course Maria.
 

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Standards have slipped & styles have changed. The acid test is Richards vs. Edwards from last June's Best In The World iPPV. You'll either think it's one of the most incredible matches you've ever seen or you'll be left scratching your head at 36 mins of stiff strikes & big moves with little or no attention to pacing, structure, storytelling or selling - y'know, the little things that have engaged audiences for over 100 years. Like it or lump it, this match embodies the current ROH main event style & it's had a massive influence on upcoming indie wrestlers worldwide.

Kevin Steen is poised to be the next ROH World champ, although the promotion seems determined to push him as an uber heel, despite him being arguably the most popular man in the promotion.

If properly getting back into a promotion seems too much like hard work, then pick pretty much any PWG DVD from 2011 (especially DDT4, ASW8 1&2, BOLA and Fear). It's a similar style to ROH with plenty of talent crossover, but the setting, crowd, commentary & general carefree approach tends to make PWG more palatable & entertaining (apologies in advances for sparking that argument again).
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I suppose it was hard to realize what a golden age we were in with Morishima as champ, KENTA and DG guys coming in regularly, etc...
 

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The acid test is Richards vs. Edwards from last June's Best In The World iPPV. You'll either think it's one of the most incredible matches you've ever seen or you'll be left scratching your head at 36 mins of stiff strikes & big moves with little or no attention to pacing, structure, storytelling or selling - y'know, the little things that have engaged audiences for over 100 years.
Well said sir. "Greatest match" my fucking hemroided ass! What a joke! LoL!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
So essentially ROH has become a parody of itself; guys trying to recreate the Dragon/Joe/KENTA/Punk/Whoever golden age of the promotion without actually realizing what made the matches between those guys great? And DGUSA is a joke because there's no quality American talent/Dragon Gate isn't sending 8 guys every two months like originally planned?
 

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DGUSA sends a fairly decent number of DG wrestlers.
Tozawa is arguably the most popular one after tearing ridiculously good matches in the USA Soil.
Chikara had quite the growth and started working with ROH for some shows.
EVOLVE is being EVOLVE doing shows each 3 or 4 months
ROH had a really good match(from what've heard) with Davey Richards and that HoT dude who name run away from my head.
 

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DGUSA sends a fairly decent number of DG wrestlers.
Tozawa is arguably the most popular one after tearing ridiculously good matches in the USA Soil.
Chikara had quite the growth and started working with ROH for some shows.
EVOLVE is being EVOLVE doing shows each 3 or 4 months
ROH had a really good match(from what've heard) with Davey Richards and that HoT dude who name run away from my head.
Michael Elgin.
 

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Davey Richards about sums up USA indies. You either like random stiff kicks and highspots or you don't. ROH, mostly because WWE stole up the best that weren't already in TNA (Bryan, Hero, Claudio, Moxley, who else?) and has become incredible once again. I'd catch up starting with Punk's promo before MITB last year. That was the start of this return to quality they've achieved nowadays. They just broke their previous PPV records with this mania, Punk vs. Cena was the best match in a decade for them... yeah, Daniel Bryan Danielson Bryan is the most popular star these days. It's fucking awesome, catch up ASAP. Smackdown is awesome wrestling, RAW is great sports entertainment. Can't complain in today's E climate.

In Japan, all the promotions seem to be friendly these days. Everyone is growing, except the once almighty NOAH. It is dwindling in size and popularity. Once Misawa died, they didn't create new stars, started drawing less and less, Kobashi is immobile, they lost their TV deal, had to let a bunch of wrestlers go, and now just a few weeks ago a Yakuza scandal broke. The future is bleak... but this has been discussed to death.

On the other hand, New Japan is achieving highs in attendance, popularity, and most importantly - quality; all at levels not seen since the dying days of Inokism. Tanahashi, Nakamura, Goto, Makabe, Kojima, Minoru Suzuki, Masato Tanaka, Nagata, are all main eventers but so is the rising-faster-than-the-sun-in-all-damn-aspects, Tetsuya Naito (arguably the second best wrestler in the company nowadays behind the consensus top worker in all of the country, Nakamura) AND your current IWGP Champion, Kazuchika Okada. Jado and Gedo have been utterly tremendous bookers. The juniors have suffered in order to make the heavyweights that much better, but I'll take it personally. Tanahashi is the first megastar since the aforementioned mid-2000s... Yeah. Go to wikipedia and look at that damn roster. Damn.

Dragon Gate is number two. They please their niche fanbase and run a million shows a year. They have a stable called MAD BLANKEY (sp?) which I think is awesome. I don't know, I don't watch it.

All Japan (now AJP) has a bright future, Mutoh and company have pushed the youth and since Kondo took over the book they've been the most interesting. Once their in ring gets consistently high again, they may just return to number two! They are currently feuding with, well, everyone. NOAH (Akiyama is GHC champ), NJPW (they have a new working agreement with New Japan, BUSHI is on a one year loan to NJ while Kanemoto and Nagata have been working tons of All Japan), and the BJW feud that's been going on for over a year has helped them produce the second largest set of puro MOTYC's come the end of 2011! Suwama is a legit superstar and the rest are soon to follow.

DDT has run Sumo Hall for the last two years! They're running fucking Budokan this summer. This company is very popular online, because you can't not like it.

Zero-1 has Shinya Hashimoto's son coming up... Nobody really seems to know much about this company though. Let alone I.

Big Japan has created a Strong BJ division that is basically 80s style with a modern flair power wrestling and it is awesome. Sekimoto is tearing up the country in particular. Their feud with All Japan has put them back on the map so to speak, and the influx of new fans over the last little while is a testament to that. They're recognized as the most consistently solid promotion these days.

Lucha is apparently very good these days. I donno.

I'm just killing time until the live stream for the All Japan show starts in an hour.

Welcome back, random I've never encountered before!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
All I'll say about WWE: Just watched Punk vs. Cena (along with some Punk promos, which were much more interesting) and if that's the best of the decade, then color me uninterested. Seems like they're going after more of a Japanese main event style, building from matwork to escalation of finishers, but it really doesn't work if you abandon the 'sports' thing 25 minutes in to do an overbooked finish that's more about Vince than it is about Punk or Cena. I mean, Jesus, that's why I quit watching the E in the first place: they don't want to do the bloody overbooked brawls of the Austin days anymore, but they still don't have the balls needed to book clean matches without runins and other bullshit. It's the worst of both worlds.
 

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If you haven't checked out some of the recent Puro stuff than it wouldn't be bad to check that out. You are either going to abandon wrestling again which is fine since you might not find anything you like, or you are going to find something you like out of the great variety out there. If you don't like Davey and Eddie stiff strike exchanges with no story telling for the most part, go try some of the awesome Strong BJ Tags.

If that doesn't do it for you try watching CHIKARA's 12 Large Tournament or KOT 2011 from last year. CHIKARA has great story telling but sometimes lacks on HIGH quality matches, but that doesn't mean they haven't had some such as: Kingston vs. Quackenbush 2011, El Generico vs. 123 Kid 2011, Team Osaka Pro vs. F.I.S.T. 2011, Kingston vs. El Generico 2011, Manami Toyota/Quackenbush vs. Claudio/SDR 2010, Torneo Cibernetico 2010.

Don't like CHIKARA? Try some of the NJPW Jr. matches from the past few years with Omega/Ibushi/Devitt/Taguchi. They have put on awesome tag matches against each other as well as some really good matches with Ibushi or Omega vs Devitt. I wasn't a big fan of the heavyweight seen with Tanahashi at the helm, still some really good matches in there, but it seems as if Okada will make NJPW's title battles that much different.

Still not your cup of tea? How about the absolute pure crazy awesomeness of PWG? Watch Steen and El Generico kill each other in what some call the best ladder match they have ever seen. There is also 2011's DDT4 and BOLA which may have been the best edition of either tournament.

I know you said that DGUSA seems like a joke but it isn't bad either. They haven't brought in the planned amount of DG guys but they do have some quality American talents. You'll either love or hate Sami Callihan but I like to see him as one of the next indy stars and there are other Americans like Johnny Gargano, Chuck Taylor, Rich Swann, AR Fox, and Arik Cannon that are also pretty good. If you like the DG 6 mans from ROH try some of the DGUSA 6 mans from the WM weekend shows and see how that treats you.

If out of all those you can't find anything that makes you happy then it was probably for the best to abandon wrestling again. That's what there is these days for better or worse.
 

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PWG is probably the best indy promotion right now wrestlingwise.
They constantly put GREAT Shows, the Reseda crowd is probably the BEST one in indy wrestling right now, they can do fun stuff and then put all the drama.
Their bad shows are on par with most of the other indies good shows
 

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As many people covered ROH is a shadow that it used to be. It's a good product , don't get me wrong but it's completely different than the product which many came to know and love. This change was obviously bound to happen with the TV deal,loss of talent etc. You still missed a lot of great stuff though. Check out as much Kings Of Wrestling matches as possible , single or tags. Obviously there was the epic Steen/Generico fued. Awesome fued from start to finish with Corino and Cabana playing their roles perfect. Hmm , what else what there? I loved Daniels brief return , so if you're a Christoper Daniels fan I'd check that out. Not much stands out to me.


Chikara has been a great promotion and evolved past that "whacky company that wears mask" and is growing rapidly. In terms of storylines no one comes close to Chikara. From top to bottom booking is perfection. The BDK story arch was one of my favourite storylines ever. I cannot pimp the 12 large summit and King Of The Trios enough and is perfect to see what the current product has to offer.

PWG. One word.....Amazing. Just check out pretty much any DVD from the past two years and you won't be dissapointed. I can't think of a company that had that many excellent consequetive shows. Just check it out.
 

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Re the MITB match - kinda funny that you look at it that way cause that's exactly how someone out of the loop would, but I never really thought of it that way because of how good a payoff it was for what they built. The run ins have drastically reduced in general actually. They haven't had a single 'classic WWE face palm' fail feud since Nash last year, and they even dropped it when it was clear it wasn't working. The silly no selling has only been done in like 6 matches (Taker/HBK II, Taker/HHH x2, Rock/Cena and the two Punk/Cena matches) and in most of those it was special enough to warrant it.
 

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Surprised not even one mention of CZW has been made. DJ Hyde bought the company and is slowly turning it into a much more legit enterprise. The booking needs help and the whole production needs a kick in the pants but they're starting to put together a solid product. MASADA is currently their champion and after the way he's been wrestling the past year (in both straight and death matches) it's not surprising. Plus where else are you going to see Greg Excellent and Mia Yim in a ladder match?

Find a video of Drake Younger and Scotty Vortekz's dog collar match. It was fucking epic.
 

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In ROH you need to look at matches involving:

KEVIN STEEN.
Adam Cole
Kyle O' Reilly
Michael Elgin
Davey Richards
Eddie Edwards
Young Bucks

In DGUSA you need to look out for:

PAC.
Ricochet
AR Fox
Sami Callihan

Actually, fuck that and just watch PWG and Chikara.

P.S. Your WWE Cena/Punk rant, that's not how wrestling works is it? Clean finishes involving Cena losing aren't ever gonna happen (Rock aside) so you'll either have to like it or lump it I'm afraid.
 
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