[Rockymin]

How'd ya like that Bagwell Piper boxing match lol.

Another weird thing lol. And then Piper disappears again after that. Piper was another one of the weird things. A heel turn just out of the blue and suddenly he is the VP and doesn't want to stop Flair.

I really must have blocked all this from my memory because it was so bad. I was watching WCW back then but I don't remember a lot of this stuff at all hahaha.

 

[Seafort]

The Death of WCW and Nitro books go into this fairly well.

Two previous years of bad booking caught up to WCW and they did not have a fresh, catchy new idea to overcome the growing reservoire of bad will that had been generated.

 

[ThePegasusKid]

dying

 

[DUD]

@Rockymin If youre interested in why WCW went to shit read the book 'Nitro'. It interviews over 120 people from WCW and TBS and is written in a historical context as to why WCW capitulated in the manner it did.

 

[DUD]

The Death of WCW and Nitro books go into this fairly well.

Two previous years of bad booking caught up to WCW and they did not have a fresh, catchy new idea to overcome the growing reservoire of bad will that had been generated.

The 'Death of WCW' was perceived as good at one point as it was the only book of its kind for a long time but thanks to the emergence of podcasts and other books I think it's more of guide as to how bad the creative was as there's been too many factors that have since come to light that Bryan Alvarez wouldn't have known about when he wrote the book.

This for example was an interview with Eric Bischoff last week where he brushes on a couple of issues in 1998 that Bryan Alvarez did not know about that went on to affect the creative.

 

[Seafort]

The 'Death of WCW' was perceived as good at one point as it was the only book of its kind for a long time but thanks to the emergence of podcasts and other books I think it's more of guide as to how bad the creative was as there's been too many factors that have since come to light that Bryan Alvarez wouldn't have known about when he wrote the book.

This for example was an interview with Eric Bischoff last week where he brushes on a couple of issues in 1998 that Bryan Alvarez did not know about that went on to affect the creative.

Yes, I would agree with that. The Nitro book is really good.

 

[Dr. Jones]

The 'Death of WCW' was perceived as good at one point as it was the only book of its kind for a long time but thanks to the emergence of podcasts and other books I think it's more of guide as to how bad the creative was as there's been too many factors that have since come to light that Bryan Alvarez wouldn't have known about when he wrote the book.

This for example was an interview with Eric Bischoff last week where he brushes on a couple of issues in 1998 that Bryan Alvarez did not know about that went on to affect the creative.

Bischoff has been telling this same story for 20 years now. I still fail every time to see how the NWO/Sting storyline wasn't kid friendly. I still fail to see what exactly Goldberg was doing in 1998 that wasn't kid friendly. I still fail to see what DDP was doing in 1997/98 that wasn't kid friendly. These guys were the most popular acts in the company, and WCW/Bischoff had their hand in cooling all of them off. If you want to point to the Wolfpac being on the edgier side, Ill give him that. But didn't they do the Scott Hall is a drunken mess thing(with Nash yelling "How bout a double!") in their match at Halloween Havoc 98? And wasn't a major plot point of the Finger Poke of Doom episode that Elizabeth accused Goldberg of sexual assault? Both of these things happened after Bischoff's "The Meeting That Doomed WCW". Both very kid friendly. Obviously the people in the meeting didn't do shit about either. Both were stupid ideas that did no good then, as they are stupid ideas that did no good now.

One of his biggest arguments that he's been using for the past 20 years of "Why WCW collapsed?" just doesn't actually make sense when you look into it

 

[Rockymin]

@Rockymin If youre interested in why WCW went to shit read the book 'Nitro'. It interviews over 120 people from WCW and TBS and is written in a historical context as to why WCW capitulated in the manner it did.

Thanks, I will.

 

[Seafort]

Bischoff has been telling this same story for 20 years now. I still fail every time to see how the NWO/Sting storyline wasn't kid friendly. I still fail to see what exactly Goldberg was doing in 1998 that wasn't kid friendly. I still fail to see what DDP was doing in 1997/98 that wasn't kid friendly. These guys were the most popular acts in the company, and WCW/Bischoff had their hand in cooling all of them off. If you want to point to the Wolfpac being on the edgier side, Ill give him that. But didn't they do the Scott Hall is a drunken mess thing(with Nash yelling "How bout a double!") in their match at Halloween Havoc 98? And wasn't a major plot point of the Finger Poke of Doom episode that Elizabeth accused Goldberg of sexual assault? Both of these things happened after Bischoff's "The Meeting That Doomed WCW". Both very kid friendly. Obviously the people in the meeting didn't do shit about either. Both were stupid ideas that did no good then, as they are stupid ideas that did no good now.

One of his biggest arguments that he's been using for the past 20 years of "Why WCW collapsed?" just doesn't actually make sense when you look into it

It does.

WCW ran the risk of getting stale. What could prevent that aside from a groundbreaking new angle? Increasingly risqué content in an industry that had always been child friendly at a national level.

In 1997 WCW and the WWF had been largely matching each other, tit for tat. In September 1997 it was the nWo…not DX…that first introduced the crotchchop. And it was weeks later that Turner Broadcasting stepped in and put a stop to it, while the WWF gleefully proceeded apace. In a world where Jerry Springer was incredibly popular and the wrestling fan base was shifting towards the audience, WCW had disarmed itself. WWF continued to be edgy and became the adult promotion.

 

[Stephen90]

It just keeps getting more ridiculous, lol. I'm just about at Road Wild 99 and suddenly Hogan doesn't seem to care about nWo anymore. Doesn't mention it and being buddy with Sting and Goldberg. And everyone likes him now like Tony Schiavone, who used to say Hogan can go to hell and other things like that. And Nash suddenly hates Hogan for the finger poke and is feuding with him. And Sid Vicious just switches from Savage to partnering up with Nash, who's "known him for 9 years". Sid was just involved in driving a humvee into Nash's limo and jumping him with Savage.

It's just weird what they did back then.

I'm on 92 WCW Simmons is the world champion and Jake Roberts has made his debut. As for WWF I'm on 1993 where Hogan won the world title from Yokozuna. Started 93 ECW honestly Sandman as a weird super lame babyface.

 

[RealDealNow]

It should also be noted that a lot of the stuff Syxx was carrying on with at the time (crotch-chopping, yelling out "suck my dick, motherfucker!") landed WCW in some hot water.

 

[Seafort]

I'm on 92 WCW Simmons is the world champion and Jake Roberts has made his debut. As for WWF I'm on 1993 where Hogan won the world title from Yokozuna. Started 93 ECW honestly Sandman as a weird super lame babyface.

How are you finding the radical shift in direction that began in the summer of 1992 with WCW?

 

[Stephen90]

How are you finding the radical shift in direction that began in the summer of 1992 with WCW?

It's ok nothing to write home about.

 

[Seafort]

It's ok nothing to write home about.

That’s probably the kindest words I’ve heard about Watts reign. The best thing you could say is that he churned the roster and brought in a slew of new, young talent (2 Cold Scorpio, RVD, Johnny Gunn (Tom Brandi), The Texicans (Godwins), and of course Eric Watts). But he drove off a lot of talent (Steiner Brothers, Terry Taylor, Jimmy Garvin, and others), and undid all of the positive momentum that emerged during the brief Kip Frey period. Plus in a production set, his shows looked dismal. Compare Halloween Havoc 92 (Watts) vs SuperBrawl II (Frey). The former looks like it took place in 1978, the latter in 1992.

 

[Jets4Life]

This for example was an interview with Eric Bischoff last week where he brushes on a couple of issues in 1998 that Bryan Alvarez did not know about that went on to affect the creative.

No offence, but Bischoff is about the last person one would listen to, if they wanted the truth to why WCW went under. Bischoff is a habitual liar, self serving, and probably takes no blame for the companies demise.

Yup. I got through 2 1/2 minutes of that podcast Bischoff was on, and his lies just amplify with the passing of time. First off, wrestling insiders were well aware of big problems WCW was having by early 1998. The main problem was the fact that WCW was not elevating any of their younger midcard talent, while letting the ageing stars dominate the storylines.

Another problem was the nWo storylines were not only getting stale, but it was dominating every aspect of the show. Even in Luchadore matches, the announcers would spend most of the time talking about what was happening with the nWo. There are plenty of other reasons WCW was in chaos, but let's start with Bischoff claim that they needed to appeal to children.

If this was true, why start a story line with Scott Hall, as an alcoholic? Or having Kevin Nash and Sting do crotch chops? How about letting Scott Steiner go off on random people on air, often accusing them of being gay, male escorts, transgender, etc, or brag about having sex with his opponents girlfriend? How about the "aggravated stalking" charges against Goldberg? How about the nWo bringing in Hells Angels? There are too many things that contradict everything the Bischoff says.

 

[Jets4Life]

It does.

WCW ran the risk of getting stale. What could prevent that aside from a groundbreaking new angle? Increasingly risqué content in an industry that had always been child friendly at a national level.

The Monday Night Wars were definitely not kid-friendly during the Monday Night War. In fact, even during the Territory days, there was a ton of content that was not meant for kids. The only time I remember wrestling being kid-friendly was during the "New Generation Era" from 1990-96 WWE.

 

[Seafort]

The Monday Night Wars were definitely not kid-friendly during the Monday Night War. In fact, even during the Territory days, there was a ton of content that was not meant for kids. The only time I remember wrestling being kid-friendly was during the "New Generation Era" from 1992-96 WWE.

I’d say WWF was very kid friendly from 1986-1996. WCW was from the end of 1989 to 1996 as well.

 

[Dr. Jones]

If this was true, why start a story line with Scott Hall, as an alcoholic? Or having Kevin Nash and Sting do crotch chops? How about letting Scott Steiner go off on random people on air, often accusing them of being gay, male escorts, transgender, etc, or brag about having sex with his opponents girlfriend? How about the "aggravated stalking" charges against Goldberg? How about the nWo bringing in Hells Angels? There are too many things that contradict everything the Bischoff says.

Exactly. He claims he was handcuffed from doing risque stuff...but then went and did it anyway. And what he did didn't generate anything positive or fondly remembered.

This is almost as rich of an excuse as his "I didn't know Sting wasn't in shape and mentally engaged because he didn't talk to me throughout the ENTIRE summer/fall of 1997"

 

[DUD]

Bischoff has been telling this same story for 20 years now. I still fail every time to see how the NWO/Sting storyline wasn't kid friendly. I still fail to see what exactly Goldberg was doing in 1998 that wasn't kid friendly. I still fail to see what DDP was doing in 1997/98 that wasn't kid friendly. These guys were the most popular acts in the company, and WCW/Bischoff had their hand in cooling all of them off. If you want to point to the Wolfpac being on the edgier side, Ill give him that. But didn't they do the Scott Hall is a drunken mess thing(with Nash yelling "How bout a double!") in their match at Halloween Havoc 98? And wasn't a major plot point of the Finger Poke of Doom episode that Elizabeth accused Goldberg of sexual assault? Both of these things happened after Bischoff's "The Meeting That Doomed WCW". Both very kid friendly. Obviously the people in the meeting didn't do shit about either. Both were stupid ideas that did no good then, as they are stupid ideas that did no good now.

One of his biggest arguments that he's been using for the past 20 years of "Why WCW collapsed?" just doesn't actually make sense when you look into it

Yeah that's fair. Whilst it wasnt as frequent as what was happening in WWE, his argument from the cater from children aspect would hold weight if he didn't try to rock the boat at times.

No offence, but Bischoff is about the last person one would listen to, if they wanted the truth to why WCW went under. Bischoff is a habitual liar, self serving, and probably takes no blame for the companies demise.

Yup. I got through 2 1/2 minutes of that podcast Bischoff was on, and his lies just amplify with the passing of time. First off, wrestling insiders were well aware of big problems WCW was having by early 1998. The main problem was the fact that WCW was not elevating any of their younger midcard talent, while letting the ageing stars dominate the storylines.

Another problem was the nWo storylines were not only getting stale, but it was dominating every aspect of the show. Even in Luchadore matches, the announcers would spend most of the time talking about what was happening with the nWo.

Regardless of whether you think Eric Bischoff himself is a compulsive liar or not, the book Nitro is still worth well a read as you get the perspective from people well above Eric's pay grade in regards to what went wrong. A lot of people don't agree with him, a lot of people don't have anything nice to say about him. That YouTube clip I showed was an example of why the Death of WCW as a book is better perceived as a guide to remind us how poor the creative was, and if it was written again today would no doubt be a better book because more information is readily accessible.

The whole "they didn't enough push midcard talent" really depends on where you draw the line. Should they have made more out of Chris Jericho? Absolutely. Could they have done more with Raven? Certainly. Did they drop the ball on Bret Hart? Definitely. Was it slightly too soon for Benoit, Eddie, Booker etc? Probably.

As for the last part about luchadores/nWo I quite liked that they had a main event story running through there show and prefer it to the segment-by-segment approach we see in AEW today where you can just turn off after you've seen who you want to see as you know they won't be on again.

 

[Rockymin]

Okay, so what were they thinking with Berlyn? It was painfully obvious that he was Alex Wright, a wrestler we've been watching for years but you got Tony and Bobby acting like he's someone brand new to WCW and they've never seen him before.

This gimmick was a failure from the start.