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Put all 4 teams into a ladder match at WrestleMania. It's an exciting match, creates interesting dynamics between the two teams, the teams have reason to betray each other, it's a good way to get the title off them without particularly damaging anyone, and you can set up pretty much any feud you want out of it - Seth Vs. KO, Seth Vs. Joe, Seth Vs. Buddy, Seth+Buddy Vs. AOP, Joe Vs. KO, AOP Vs. Raiders.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
I think they will be feuding for the tag team titles at WM and then Rollins will enter the WWE title picture.

In hindsight Owens feuding with Shane in the summer and Seth dropping the title were not the good ideas the company thought it would be, Owens character peaked in his feud with Shane and there is nothing for him at WM 36 as big as feuding with a McMahon Family member, and Seth Messiah character is more appropiate for a dilusional world champion.

Seth feud with The Fiend was a fiasco and Brock ending KofiMania in 7 seconds another fiasco.

The Fiend should have ended KofiMania, it was the perfect contrast between opposite characters. All Lesnar did with the WWE championhship was a 3 minutes match with Cain Velasquez, his storyline with Rey Mysterio which was about Dominic and not the title, dissapear and then enter the Rumble like he was no holding any title, if they wanted to do Lesnar-McIntyre they could easily do the same thing at the Rumble match, the WWE championhsip was not needed.

Rollins should've retained against Lesnar and then become a dilusional champion, confirming his heel turn at Survivor Series, The Messiah character and his storyline with Owens would have had more emotional value if it had culminated in a titular match at WM 36.
Oh no doubt. The Fall of 2019 between Kofi/Brock, Cain, and Seth/Fiend was a complete shit show. Things could have been handled a million different ways and it would have been better.

But, I like the way they've rebounded with Seth's character and this feud. So I at least have that to look forward to and speculate on as we go through Mania season.

great post @The_Workout_Buddy

This rollins feud with KO has dragged on so much now that I roll my eyes every monday when they come on.
Someone should add up the collective minutes this feud has absorbed on Raw since November. I'm sure it'd be shocking.

They continuously do these same matches with the same guys +/- a few additions like Big show here and there.

It needs some kick to it... i like groups, I love KO, I love Samoa Joe, but nothing is going on here.

I guess I'd have this feud start to come to a conclusion by EC, and for WM I'd consider doing something like Rollins vs. Aleister Black (maybe KO enlists the help of black a long the way or something) while KO/Joe maybe take the tag titles at EC and fight AOP/others at WM for them?
I really don't know.. it's a bit of a damn shame as KO should really be a star.
Concerning your last sentence, I'm not quite sure how KO isn't a star at the moment. OK, sure, he's not challenging for the WWE Title or anything. That's Drew's role right now. But KO, despite the constant losing to Seth's group, is the same guy that got a standing ovation for his performance a week ago where he went 3 on 1. When I look at that and the reactions he's getting, the fans are supporting him. They want him to finally get a big win over these guys.

Again, this might not put Owens in the championship feud on Raw. But what it has done is give him plenty of air time and by my eye test and the crowd reactions, it's all working.

It's a very very very very very B- feud right now. It's not terrible and it's not great at all. It's one of those....what are we doing here? A stable needs a purpose and/or an identity or purpose or REALLY intriguing characters. We don't really have any of that.

Lets take the Inner Circle as an example of a stable that works. It's pretty similar to Rollins' group. Rollins = Jericho...as the top heel leader. AOP = Santana/Ortiz...as the young tag team/muscle. Murphy = Sammy...as the young guy to eat finishers and build slowly as a character.

What's the biggest difference? Well, i think there's a few things. First, Jericho is champ, so it makes the stable credible. Secondly, also, we've seen clips of them partying it up 4 horseman style. You see that if you run with Jericho, you get special treatment. And finally, Jericho's one of the best talkers of all time.

Rollins group is just a hodge podge and they're mostly hurt cause Rollins cant go after the title cause of a guy called Lesnar.

Also, Owens is great but Samoa Joe is a loser (kayfabe) and Vikings raiders fucking suck
I would argue with the Inner Circle comparison. Sure, Jericho is the top champion. But everyone else in that group either doesn't wrestle (Hager) or has been 50/50'd to the point where they don't really feel like a big deal. Rollins might not be able to go after the top title, but he and his whole group have been protected since they've been aligned with him. Which is something I can't say about the IC. And as far as special treatment goes, Buddy went from loser one week to a champion the next all because Rollins's influence.

In a perfect company, at this point it should lead to a match at Mania with some stipulations and Kevin winning in the end.

But in reality, I don't think Seth Rollins will even get his comeuppance. That's not how Vince looks at things. To me, it looks like the intention here is not to push KO, but to just have Seth waste some time before he could enter the main event picture again, which probably will happen after Mania (either Drew wins the title and Seth feuds with him, WWE could promote this feud as a war between both guys who beat Lesnar, or maybe Seth is drafted to SD to feud with Roman). Look, they're definitely building this faction for Seth to cheat in main event angles again, like he did before, in 2014. It's the same story, Dean Ambrose was beaten every single time back then. So they are probably doing something similiar. I could even see them turning Joe heel and possibly feuding with Owens after Mania (or even before). There will be no reasonable explanation, as usual. But they'll use the turn to justify Seth winning the blow-off.

PS - yeah, by the way, that tag team title win really was pointless and stupid, looking back. People were saying there's a reason, well... there wasn't. KO and Joe lost a tag title match, and AOP are still not beating the shit out of Rollins because they should've got this shot way before him and Murphy. So...eventually looks like they did it so Seth would become some tag team specialist by the end of his career, lol.
I don't disagree that this could all end without Seth getting his comeuppance. That's why I said "should" in the title, lol.

I will say it's too early to judge the move to give Rollins and Buddy the tag titles. I say that because it's only been a few weeks since they've won them. I don't think we can really judge whether or not that's a good idea until they drop the belts and how they do it. Like if they dropped the belts to KO and Joe but then AOP take it from them, that could still work.

Which other main roster heel is there then to put him over in a match that actually matters?
On Raw? AJ would be a good matchup for Black. It doesn't mean as much as a winner over Seth does right now, but it would still be a good win for Black if it happened.
 

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I would argue with the Inner Circle comparison. Sure, Jericho is the top champion. But everyone else in that group either doesn't wrestle (Hager) or has been 50/50'd to the point where they don't really feel like a big deal. Rollins might not be able to go after the top title, but he and his whole group have been protected since they've been aligned with him. Which is something I can't say about the IC. And as far as special treatment goes, Buddy went from loser one week to a champion the next all because Rollins's influence.
They may be 50/50'd but their characters are getting over and exposure. Plus, in the end, it's about having a purpose for the group. Show me some videos and vignettes of Rollins group hanging outside the ring. Or hey, you want to give Rollins group credibility, he should take on another mid-carder, and turn him into a champion and go full in with this messiah gimmick.

Until Murphy joined the stable I didn't care about this Rollins angle at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
They may be 50/50'd but their characters are getting over and exposure. Plus, in the end, it's about having a purpose for the group. Show me some videos and vignettes of Rollins group hanging outside the ring. Or hey, you want to give Rollins group credibility, he should take on another mid-carder, and turn him into a champion and go full in with this messiah gimmick.

Until Murphy joined the stable I didn't care about this Rollins angle at all.
Right when it comes to the IC it feels like their purpose is really to protect Jericho. And that's fine, but it doesn't make the other members of the group that interesting. LAX has been 50/50'd in the tag division, Sammy is kind of just the fall guy. Hager works fine as the enforcer but I've lost interest at this point with him as a wrestler.

I agree that I would like to Seth's crew film some vignettes. I think that's a good idea to build team comradery. But when I look at AOP and Buddy, I look at 3 guys who have all been elevated up the card ever since aligning with Seth. So when I look at Seth and his stable that gives them credibility because there was change there.

And when I look at IC I see guys that just make Jericho look better. And again, that's fine because Jericho is awesome. But I'm more interested in the whole of Rollins group than I am of the whole of the IC.
 

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Right when it comes to the IC it feels like their purpose is really to protect Jericho. And that's fine, but it doesn't make the other members of the group that interesting. LAX has been 50/50'd in the tag division, Sammy is kind of just the fall guy. Hager works fine as the enforcer but I've lost interest at this point with him as a wrestler.

I agree that I would like to Seth's crew film some vignettes. I think that's a good idea to build team comradery. But when I look at AOP and Buddy, I look at 3 guys who have all been elevated up the card ever since aligning with Seth. So when I look at Seth and his stable that gives them credibility because there was change there.

And when I look at IC I see guys that just make Jericho look better. And again, that's fine because Jericho is awesome. But I'm more interested in the whole of Rollins group than I am of the whole of the IC.
Not the AOP. I think they're dead in the water talent. Once this thing with Rollins ends I think they're going to be exactly where they were before. They'll get a vikings raiders treatment where they just beat everyone, no one will really care...and that's done.

And i totally disagree. I think the inner circle has given a big time spotlight on Sammy as this young weasely punk you wanna punch heel....and more of a spotlight on Santana/Ortiz as these over the top NYC lunatics. The Inner Circle gave exposure to these characters that I think have bennefitted greatly from this.

And they're saving Hager for a big moment, which will get a pop.


Murphy has bennefitted from Rollins no doubt.
 

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I think nobody should be able to lay a glove on Seth.

Seth should be free to run his mouth, put people down, and herald the tale of how he holds the world on his shoulders.


Anybody that tries to touch him should get put down by his guys with prejudice, and if that means the matches end in a DQ, then so be it.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Not the AOP. I think they're dead in the water talent. Once this thing with Rollins ends I think they're going to be exactly where they were before. They'll get a vikings raiders treatment where they just beat everyone, no one will really care...and that's done.

And i totally disagree. I think the inner circle has given a big time spotlight on Sammy as this young weasely punk you wanna punch heel....and more of a spotlight on Santana/Ortiz as these over the top NYC lunatics. The Inner Circle gave exposure to these characters that I think have bennefitted greatly from this.

And they're saving Hager for a big moment, which will get a pop.


Murphy has bennefitted from Rollins no doubt.
I guess we'll agree to disagree.

I don't argue that all that all the IC guys have befitted from the spotlight of being beside Chris Jericho. I just argue from a credibility stand point or a Win/Loss standpoint, how much have they really achieved being with him? To me not that much when I compare them to Seth's crew.

To keep it short, there's improvement to be had on both sides.
 

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On Raw? AJ would be a good matchup for Black. It doesn't mean as much as a winner over Seth does right now, but it would still be a good win for Black if it happened.
Yeah that's what I meant. AJ hasn't been booked as high on the pecking order, so realistically for Black to seem like a main eventer he has to beat Rollins. The only alternative would be Orton but he's already busy with Edge.
The other heels are Styles, Lashley and Andrade, they're good but wouldn't elevate Black more than he already is.
 

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Which other main roster heel is there then to put him over in a match that actually matters?
No, Seth is a perfect choice if they want someone to be elevated, but I rather meant that they won't do it like you would want them. No way Seth is gonna lose to Black, are you kidding? This guy is protected like hell, he's Vince and Hunter's favorite. He's not losing to directionless Black, or Murphy, or Joe or KO - guys they simple don't care about, or don't care ENOUGH about.

I mean, maybe you want Black vs Seth feud with Black losing in the end? I don't know. Because that's exactly what's gonna happen if they feud.

I don't disagree that this could all end without Seth getting his comeuppance. That's why I said "should" in the title, lol.

I will say it's too early to judge the move to give Rollins and Buddy the tag titles. I say that because it's only been a few weeks since they've won them. I don't think we can really judge whether or not that's a good idea until they drop the belts and how they do it. Like if they dropped the belts to KO and Joe but then AOP take it from them, that could still work.
I mean... if the end goal is to get the titles on AOP, then why not just do it right then? Why does Seth need this title? I understand the argument that they needed to throw a bone at Murphy so he can say that in this group he won something. But to me, it doesn't work like that. You have a legitimate, badass destroyers, an actual tag team in your group, and you give the titles to 2 single guys? Joe and KO already lost the tag title match, why would they suddenly get another?

It's just, you know, this feud just screams week-to-week booking garbage. It has its moments, but I for one am tired of these endless combinations of matches between these guys, matches that don't progress the story, it feels like filler.
 

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No, Seth is a perfect choice if they want someone to be elevated, but I rather meant that they won't do it like you would want them. No way Seth is gonna lose to Black, are you kidding? This guy is protected like hell, he's Vince and Hunter's favorite. He's not losing to directionless Black, or Murphy, or Joe or KO - guys they simple don't care about, or don't care ENOUGH about.

I mean, maybe you want Black vs Seth feud with Black losing in the end? I don't know. Because that's exactly what's gonna happen if they feud.
Nah Black is getting strong booking too, HHH clearly likes him based on his strong booking in NXT and by all accounts Heyman likes him too. He's clearly on the rise and needs a big victory at Mania and Seth can take a loss without dropping his stock. With his stable, you can build him back up to challenge Drew later.
With Aleister's current trajectory, he has to be heading toward a big name at Mania. Right now, Seth is the only one who makes sense. Rollins eliminated him in the Rumble, there's the whole history with Murphy. Since KO and friends keep losing, you could bring in Black to even the odds too. And with the Messiah and Satanist gimmicks, a feud wouldn't be that difficult to book.

I'd rather that than Black vs Andrade or Styles or Lashley.
 

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Nah Black is getting strong booking too, HHH clearly likes him based on his strong booking in NXT and by all accounts Heyman likes him too. He's clearly on the rise and needs a big victory at Mania and Seth can take a loss without dropping his stock. With his stable, you can build him back up to challenge Drew later.
With Aleister's current trajectory, he has to be heading toward a big name at Mania. Right now, Seth is the only one who makes sense. Rollins eliminated him in the Rumble, there's the whole history with Murphy. Since KO and friends keep losing, you could bring in Black to even the odds too. And with the Messiah and Satanist gimmicks, a feud wouldn't be that difficult to book.

I'd rather that than Black vs Andrade or Styles or Lashley.
I 100% agree with your intentions, but we're talking Vince McMahon logic here. Black is completely directionless, he's an afterthought, as of now. He isn't doing anything different now from what he's been doing since he basically came to the main roster. We've seen too much of these pushes that don't go anywhere. Honestly, I don't think Aleister is Vince's favorite. He's like Drew, probably - a guy that Triple H brought to the main roster to get him over with Vince. With McIntyre it seems to be working... about time, it's been years. But with Black, who really knows. When you're Vince's favorite, he wastes no time pushing you. You can tell that he's not pushing Black right now, because Black is doing absolutely nothing of importance. In a good wrestling promotion he'd be already feuding with Undertaker and retiring him, or something like that. But Vince likes Seth a hell of a lot more, just look how many titles this guy has. He holds some kind of a title ALL THE TIME. He was tag team champion countless times, before his RR win he was IC champion for months, and of course he won the world title twice last year. Black is nowhere near him, he's been on the main roster for a year, and never even had a feud. He's always in a limbo, where it looks like they're waiting for something, but in the end it seems like they don't have any plans for him. Look at guys they really value - like Bryan, or Styles, they're always doing something, they're never directionless, they always have a feud. Black doesn't.

Also, I doubt they will suddenly switch Seth vs KO to Seth vs Black, that seems out of nowhere, but who knows.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
No, Seth is a perfect choice if they want someone to be elevated, but I rather meant that they won't do it like you would want them. No way Seth is gonna lose to Black, are you kidding? This guy is protected like hell, he's Vince and Hunter's favorite. He's not losing to directionless Black, or Murphy, or Joe or KO - guys they simple don't care about, or don't care ENOUGH about.

I mean, maybe you want Black vs Seth feud with Black losing in the end? I don't know. Because that's exactly what's gonna happen if they feud.



I mean... if the end goal is to get the titles on AOP, then why not just do it right then? Why does Seth need this title? I understand the argument that they needed to throw a bone at Murphy so he can say that in this group he won something. But to me, it doesn't work like that. You have a legitimate, badass destroyers, an actual tag team in your group, and you give the titles to 2 single guys? Joe and KO already lost the tag title match, why would they suddenly get another?

It's just, you know, this feud just screams week-to-week booking garbage. It has its moments, but I for one am tired of these endless combinations of matches between these guys, matches that don't progress the story, it feels like filler.
I see your argument, but I don't think there has to be a rush to put the titles on AOP. Every other champion on Raw is set and I think it was important for Buddy to look good as the new guy in the group after 3 straight losses to Black. And as far as KO and Joe goe, KO pretty much worked that match as a 1 on 2 Handicap match. It wouldn't take much to earn another shot.

And I wouldn't call this week to week garbage either. Each week it's been establishing Seth's dominance KO's desire to come out on top. I keep hearing things, not from you mind you, but from others saying "oh well there's not title involved, what's the point?" Pride is the point. Survival is the point. It's not the most creative story in the world, but it's still a story that's working and I can say that because KO is the guy who got a standing ovation even in a losing effort just 2 weeks ago. That doesn't happen if people aren't invested in the story.
 

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Owens wins the feud (without winning the worthless tag titles) and goes to WrestleMania and gets a high profile match while Rollins is left off the card.

In reality, Owens will probably be having a midcard title match and Rollins will be facing Undertaker or some shit.



Never.



They don't have to, that's not how WWE works. Dean Ambrose never got his revenge on Seth Rollins, they feuded for months and Seth won constantly. When you're Vinces favourite, you make the babyfaces look stupid and that's the end of it.
Of course he'll get his comeuppance, this is WWE, heels always look weak in the end. Drew will claymore kick his entire crew into space after Mania.
 

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Of course he'll get his comeuppance, this is WWE, heels always look weak in the end. Drew will claymore kick his entire crew into space after Mania.
Good for fucking Drew. That's not what comeuppance is. He needs to get his ass beat by OWENS, not Scottish Roman. Owens is going to lose the feud, so Seth didn't get his fucking comeuppance. Seth vs Drew is a different feud. That is of course, assuming Mcintyre even wins, and with Vinces history of giving titles to UK talent, I wouldn't bet on it, and that's assuming even further that Seth doesn't just immediately beat Mcintyre because he's the real golden boy.
 

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I see your argument, but I don't think there has to be a rush to put the titles on AOP. Every other champion on Raw is set and I think it was important for Buddy to look good as the new guy in the group after 3 straight losses to Black. And as far as KO and Joe goe, KO pretty much worked that match as a 1 on 2 Handicap match. It wouldn't take much to earn another shot.

And I wouldn't call this week to week garbage either. Each week it's been establishing Seth's dominance KO's desire to come out on top. I keep hearing things, not from you mind you, but from others saying "oh well there's not title involved, what's the point?" Pride is the point. Survival is the point. It's not the most creative story in the world, but it's still a story that's working and I can say that because KO is the guy who got a standing ovation even in a losing effort just 2 weeks ago. That doesn't happen if people aren't invested in the story.
I agree that if it's not a feud for a title, it doesn't meant it's pointless. Some of the great wrestling feuds never had a title on the line, so this I completely understand.

The standing ovation thing can be not about the story, though, it could be about the character itself. It's no secret that Kevin Owens is very over as babyface, so he's laying there after the match, everything is being built for fans to cheer him, so they stand up, they praise the performer, not the feud, I believe. But, anyway, we've just seen so much screwed up stories in WWE, so I'm just used to take the negative approach first. I don't know, I just don't feel it with this feud. I don't trust WWE to do the right thing in the end. Idk, if they're serious about pushing Drew, so maybe that's why they sacrifice Owens and Joe to the Seth faction first, so Drew could take them out later. But, I'm being a big Drew McIntyre fan just can't ignore the fact that these 2 guys are better than him, character work and charisma-wise at least. So I feel frustrated that these 2 talents are being wasted like this (I mean losing every week no matter what), they're basically being sacrificed so Seths crew gets more over, so Drew could take them out in the end. I would very much like Drew to beat their asses, by the way, I just don't like that KO and Joe are suffering for it.
 
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