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The EST of NXT
The LegitEST BOSS
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
After witnessing the mediocrity of Nikki Cross and Ruby Riot, I'm inclined to declare that NXT Women's match a disgrace of the highest order. Up until Bayley's title reign, I looked forward to NXT Women's matches the most at Takeovers because they were traditionally one of the best, if not THE best match on the card. Since Bayley's reign and transitioning into Asuka's, the matches have been average to good. Tonight's match was a travesty. I'm disgusted that these two emo goth girls were allowed to show themselves on a live special with that half assed performance. It's like they were selected because none of the performance center girls are believable, (mostly due to the stupidity of the booking team) so they threw in the girls with the most indy cred. That's not going to cut anymore.

We knew this would be a filler match, so why not spend the last month building a PC girl instead of wasting everyone's time? It's like they want to rush Ruby Riot so she can siphon off what's left of Paige's fanbase. There are plenty of girls who have been sitting on simmer for at least a year that they could've used to put on an equal or potentially greater performance than what we witnessed tonight. I don't care if Mandy Rose is a heel. She's made the most noticeable improvements and people want to see her pushed. Use her. Build Liv Morgan. Work with her on promos. Invest in your current talent instead of running to the indies everytime people stop giving a fuck about NXT, otherwise, this cycle is destined to repeat itself forever.
 

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The current crop of NXT woman are clearly inferior to the last crop. Bliss, Bayley, Sasha, Charlotte. Push Peyton Royce I like her.
 

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Baby It's Violence
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This was going to be a huge problem the moment Bayley was called up to the roster. Asuka is really great and all, but they've had the problem ever since that she is the only woman on her level, and honestly, nobody is close to her. The only one who can hang with her really well in the ring is Ember Moon, who I think also is the only one who could be given opportunity to hold the title and beat her. They had a fantastic match at the last Takeover event, and I actually liked it more than both of Asuka's matches with Bayley. The only real problem with Ember is that her character is rather weak overall.

But it's not like all the other women are any more ready than Nikki Cross or Ruby Riot to be honest. Mandy Rose is improving a lot from what I've seen, but she would look just as out of her league with Asuka if she was put in a singles match with her. Peyton Royce isn't bad, she and Billie Kay have a good thing going right now with their heel characters, but they still need a ton of work in-ring wise. All these women are being built up now, but they should have had some more focus months and months ago.

They made the mistake of not building anybody up after all the four horsewomen left, and they are stuck in a situation they put themselves in. Most likely, either Ember gets better and then they have the match where she finally beats Asuka, or Asuka holds the title till Hojo and Shiari arrive.

*Also TBF, I didn't have any problems with the match, it was fine. But Asuka just pinning both of them did nothing. Also, Asuka has had good matches with Mickie James and Ember Moon since Bayley, so it hasn't all been MEH.
 

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The current crop of NXT woman are clearly inferior to the last crop. Bliss, Bayley, Sasha, Charlotte. Push Peyton Royce I like her.
Peyton Royce is OK. I think she might be the next top contender with Moon out. The match was a filler because Moon was supposed to be in this match. Probably winning the match too.
 

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THE NXT CHAMP BAYBAY !
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I think you're overreacting bro, they had a pretty decent match considering what they had to follow. If anyone was the weak point in the match though it was the woman who won tbh :draper2
 

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A disgrace? Yeah, I don't really agree with that. Was it great? Was it on par with the previous Women's Takeover matches from 2014-2015? No. But I thought it was overall solid for a match that followed a MOTY contender.

We're always going to compare things to the way they once were with the 4 Horsewomen. Thing is that the 4 Horsewomen were the perfect storm of 4 talented women all coming into their own at the same time. You aren't going to see that level of greatness ever again. Not to mention since Dusty died, the storytelling of NXT has gone way down.

You mention Liv Morgan. Liv Morgan has gotten plenty of TV time in the past year and has shown nothing to indicate that she should be positioned any higher than she is. I've heard good things about Mandy but I've only seen one match from her's. And while that was impressive considering how new she is, it's not enough for me yet to say push her hard. And while Ruby was pretty much hotshotted into this position, Nikki is playing a completely new character. She's not relying on being a "new international star."

And to top it all off, everyone knew Asuka was going to win. This was just a pit stop until Takeover Brooklyn III. And what we got IMO was a solid match with a predictable winner. And that's it. Putting someone else in that position wouldn't have really matter when it's clear that they're building Ember Moon to that spot.
 

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They made the mistake of not building anybody up after all the four horsewomen left, and they are stuck in a situation they put themselves in. Most likely, either Ember gets better and then they have the match where she finally beats Asuka, or Asuka holds the title till Hojo and Shiari arrive.

*Also TBF, I didn't have any problems with the match, it was fine. But Asuka just pinning both of them did nothing. Also, Asuka has had good matches with Mickie James and Ember Moon since Bayley, so it hasn't all been MEH.
They got some women with potential in NXT. Lacey Evans is coming up the pipeline. I see her making an impact and a future women's champ.
 

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Stomping Scrawny Vanilla Midgetesses
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Okay, I'll explain the problem. Honestly? Nikki Cross is pretty good but let me draw attention to the issues of that match:

When you book a 4-way, specifically this one, they had 4 roles: Main Hero (Ember), Support Hero (Ruby), Main Villain (Asuka) and Support Villain (Nikki)

Now there were two ugly spots in that match that are workrate related 1. Ruby's AWFUL hurracanranna and 2. The blown spot at the end where they all missed their cues, whether it was Asuka being too slow, forcing the referee to stop the count or if Ruby Riot just sat up too early (to break her own pin :punk2)

Problem is, Ember Moon got injured, which left Ruby Riot to carry the ENTIRETY of that matchup as the sole hero. It doesn't work because WE KNEW she wasn't the star of that match. It's like if you tried to remove Bayley from the 4way Raw Women's Title match at Mania, no offense to the way Sasha was booked, but she wouldn't have worked as the only hero in that match, now imagine that scenario but now imagine someone like Ruby Riot with an average set of moves and the fact that she doesn't really have a lot of in-ring charisma to get the crowd pumped.

If you have a match with two heels and one face (which they didn't do properly), they should have had Asuka and Nikki Cross gang up on Ruby Riot to try to get people to care somewhat. OR another method they should have done, since Asuka was super stronger than both Cross and Riot, was have Cross and Riot team up on Asuka like they had their own rivalry but needed to get rid of Asuka, kinda similar to Cena/Lesnar/Rollins where Cena and Rollins got fed up with Lesnar dominating and took out Lesnar. That would have been another option, since the Riot/Cross rivalry on its own is pretty good, they should have acted like they had to team up to get Asuka removed so they could go back to beating each other up.

The problem that sucked me out of it personally was, watching Cross and Asuka go at while they're both heel for most of the match, it can make people not care. (Imagine if Charlotte and Nia Jax spent LONG periods of time fighting at WrestleMania, that wouldn't have worked out psychology wise for the crowd). They didn't do either of the formulas that would have helped out that match above.

Something you might remember, go back to 4way match with Asuka, Cross, Billie Kay and Peyton Royce. When Asuka was face and Nikki Cross was heel, they were both equals and they actually would work out together in a 1 on 1 match. Problem is, both of them being heels doesn't give the division another option if Ember Moon is ever completely out (which means they need to either turn Asuka face if Ember Moon ever goes completely out).

Another option was to add Liv Morgan to the match as another hero, that way Ruby Riot wouldn't have had to do it all by herself, because she's just not the sole hero of a 3way with those two heels. If you only have to have one face in a 3way match, they HAVE to be the right choice to carry the fan support in the match (and Ruby definitely wasn't that).

All in all, do not do this setup again, in fact, if you can give me that, Nikki Cross can win her feud with Ruby Riot at TakeOver: Brooklyn III while Asuka prepares to face Ember Moon. Let me know what you think about my psychology tinkerings.
 

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Doki Doki Literature Club!
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NXT does not feel like a "developmental" anymore, especially with all of the recent "indy" signings in order to appeal to their indy fanbase. A shame really when NXT is "forced" to have a indy wrestler in a high-profile match just because they thrived in the independents, like the NXT Women's match tonight... NXT really needs to create or utilize NEW stars from the PC, for the sole purpose of actually having diversity in a NXT match.

I didn't think the actual match was BAD but I didn't feel the need to actually care for it (LOL). It would be nice to see Liv Morgan, Mandy Rose, etc. to be utilized sometimes in a TakeOver, no? The NXT Women's Division lost all of it's credibility once The Four Horsewomen got promoted to the main roster. I don't think we will be witnessing a "Sasha Banks v. Charlotte v. Bayley v. Becky Lynch (TakeOver: Rival)" or "Sasha Banks v. Bayley (TakeOver: Brooklyn)" style of match in the current NXT for a while. :aj3
 

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Now there were two ugly spots in that match that are workrate related 1. Ruby's AWFUL hurracanranna and 2. The blown spot at the end where they all missed their cues, whether it was Asuka being too slow, forcing the referee to stop the count or if Ruby Riot just sat up too early (to break her own pin :punk2)
Asuka messed up the timing on the Superkick to German as well, the superkick hit and then asuka stood there for a few seconds before giving whats her face the german.
 

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Remember no king rules forever!

I am sure we'll get a good women's match eventually. 2012 - 2015 will never return, and that was my favourite years in NxT for the women (Paige, Summer Rae, Emma, Charlotte, Sasha, Becky and Bayley).

Trying to think of the last women's match of NxT I really liked? Probably Sasha/Bayley. Their NxT matches were so good. I do think we'll see it again.

Last night wasnt a bad women's match, its just had the typical Asuka weak ending, all Asuka matches have. Nikki Cross and Ruby Riot shined pretty well in my opinion but I do feel they can do so much more.

Its not like NxT doesn't have the female talent, they are talented women, but for some reason I don't feel we have seen their best. Ember Moon is a good example. I been told she is talented, (I haven't seen her indy stuff) but she has bored me to tears since being on the NxT roster. She shows no personality and I have seen very little of her in ring work her matches usually highlighting her opponents rather than herself.

It was rumoured that Dusty spent alot of time helping the women, when he was around, but since he left us, you can see the division that has suffered the most on NxT has been the women.

But let's not pretend that the women's division is shit on NxT, a slight over reaction. I prefer the term not as good.

But hey if you wan to see good women's matches , let us wait for the women's tournament coming up. I think we can both be excited for that ;)
 

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Baby It's Violence
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Shes actually been wrestling Asuka a lot in singles matches recently at live events.
Oh, I didn't know that.

Have they been any good? Curious what some people attending those events have thought.
 

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The atmosphere after Asuka won felt very uncomfortable. Everyone was like "is that how they're ending this match...". The match itself was also less than stellar. I'm also very disappointed with what they're doing with the women's division because it was the best thing going on at NXT at one point
 

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There was no doubt the match was shit, and it was for several reasons.

First and foremost, it's placement on the card did not help it at all. The crowd were exhausted after the U.K lads put on a MOTY candidate so it was always going to be tough to immediately follow that.

Second, as a lot have already said, there is nobody on the roster anywhere near Asuka's level. They've done a nice job with Asuka. They've created a great champion from someone who can barely speak English and never loses. That's not easy to do but I think they've succeeded so far.

Lastly, and probably most importantly, they haven't addressed the void left after all the call ups. Sorry to say it, but Ruby Riot is shit. Nikki is trying her best with this psycho character but there's something not quite right with it. It's missing a spark. Billie and Peyton should be at the top of the division but Asuka being a heel has ruined that, so they've really left themselves with no options.
 

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The EST of NXT
The LegitEST BOSS
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Discussion Starter #19
Okay, I'll explain the problem. Honestly? Nikki Cross is pretty good but let me draw attention to the issues of that match:

When you book a 4-way, specifically this one, they had 4 roles: Main Hero (Ember), Support Hero (Ruby), Main Villain (Asuka) and Support Villain (Nikki)

Now there were two ugly spots in that match that are workrate related 1. Ruby's AWFUL hurracanranna and 2. The blown spot at the end where they all missed their cues, whether it was Asuka being too slow, forcing the referee to stop the count or if Ruby Riot just sat up too early (to break her own pin :punk2)

Problem is, Ember Moon got injured, which left Ruby Riot to carry the ENTIRETY of that matchup as the sole hero. It doesn't work because WE KNEW she wasn't the star of that match. It's like if you tried to remove Bayley from the 4way Raw Women's Title match at Mania, no offense to the way Sasha was booked, but she wouldn't have worked as the only hero in that match, now imagine that scenario but now imagine someone like Ruby Riot with an average set of moves and the fact that she doesn't really have a lot of in-ring charisma to get the crowd pumped.

If you have a match with two heels and one face (which they didn't do properly), they should have had Asuka and Nikki Cross gang up on Ruby Riot to try to get people to care somewhat. OR another method they should have done, since Asuka was super stronger than both Cross and Riot, was have Cross and Riot team up on Asuka like they had their own rivalry but needed to get rid of Asuka, kinda similar to Cena/Lesnar/Rollins where Cena and Rollins got fed up with Lesnar dominating and took out Lesnar. That would have been another option, since the Riot/Cross rivalry on its own is pretty good, they should have acted like they had to team up to get Asuka removed so they could go back to beating each other up.

The problem that sucked me out of it personally was, watching Cross and Asuka go at while they're both heel for most of the match, it can make people not care. (Imagine if Charlotte and Nia Jax spent LONG periods of time fighting at WrestleMania, that wouldn't have worked out psychology wise for the crowd). They didn't do either of the formulas that would have helped out that match above.

Something you might remember, go back to 4way match with Asuka, Cross, Billie Kay and Peyton Royce. When Asuka was face and Nikki Cross was heel, they were both equals and they actually would work out together in a 1 on 1 match. Problem is, both of them being heels doesn't give the division another option if Ember Moon is ever completely out (which means they need to either turn Asuka face if Ember Moon ever goes completely out).

Another option was to add Liv Morgan to the match as another hero, that way Ruby Riot wouldn't have had to do it all by herself, because she's just not the sole hero of a 3way with those two heels. If you only have to have one face in a 3way match, they HAVE to be the right choice to carry the fan support in the match (and Ruby definitely wasn't that).

All in all, do not do this setup again, in fact, if you can give me that, Nikki Cross can win her feud with Ruby Riot at TakeOver: Brooklyn III while Asuka prepares to face Ember Moon. Let me know what you think about my psychology tinkerings.
This reflected my thoughts perfectly. You've literally listed every problem I had with the match with an excellent breakdown of each. Yes, Ember's injury sucked the life out of this match, so they shouldn't have forced the issue with a heatless multiperson match when we were all expecting Ember vs. Asuka 2. They should've used the shows to create a compelling number 1 contender, or do a multi person match for #1 contendership. You already know I don't like nor care about Nikki or Ruby, and this mediocre match was counterproductive in changing my attitude towards them. Now, I don't ever want to see them on my computer screen again.

This match told no story at all. As you said, and as the freakin commentators said, the goal for the entire match should've been for Cross and Riot to team up on Asuka, but the majority of it was isolated singles exchanges. There was only one instance where they worked together, and in the end looked like complete morons when they BOTH got themselves pinned in that sloppy finish.

I didn't mention Billie and Peyton because they had their live special match with Asuka already. Asuka's title reign in and of itself is halting the progress of the division, so we're waiting for Ember to heal or another Japanese girl to dethrone her as we repeat the process and accomplish nothing in terms of building the PC girls. Having Ember defeat Asuka in the rematch was our last hope of anything worthwhile happening in the division anytime soon.
 

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NXT does not feel like a "developmental" anymore, especially with all of the recent "indy" signings in order to appeal to their indy fanbase. A shame really when NXT is "forced" to have a indy wrestler in a high-profile match just because they thrived in the independents, like the NXT Women's match tonight... NXT really needs to create or utilize NEW stars from the PC, for the sole purpose of actually having diversity in a NXT match.

I didn't think the actual match was BAD but I didn't feel the need to actually care for it (LOL). It would be nice to see Liv Morgan, Mandy Rose, etc. to be utilized sometimes in a TakeOver, no? The NXT Women's Division lost all of it's credibility once The Four Horsewomen got promoted to the main roster. I don't think we will be witnessing a "Sasha Banks v. Charlotte v. Bayley v. Becky Lynch (TakeOver: Rival)" or "Sasha Banks v. Bayley (TakeOver: Brooklyn)" style of match in the current NXT for a while. :aj3
NXT hasn't been strictly developmental for a long time though, they see it as a third brand and have for a while. PC stars will get their chance if they think they can make an impact and are ready (less so for male single wrestlers to be fair). Liv Morgan is nowhere near ready in any aspect from what we've seen of her and Mandy Rose, whilst showing some great potential, is getting some experience under her belt in low pressure situations working house show loops. I have no doubt she'll get opportunities when they're ready to pull the trigger on her just like the Authors of Pain have received opportunities.
 
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