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Discussion Starter #1
This is a subject that I've always wanted to debate. I've heard a lot of stories about WM9 being Bret vs Hogan, and Hogan nixing the idea, because he found Bret too small etc
Knowing the way Vince McMahon books his product, and a couple of other facts, make me doubt this was ever the plan. Here's my take on it:

- Bret won the WWF title at an untelevised event with little fanfare or buildup.

This was the first time ever the WWF title changed hands like that. If you booked the show, is this how you would book the next big thing? I honestly think that Bret was a transitional champion. They had to get the belt of Flair, who had his last televised appearance for the WWF only 3 months later.

- Vince was pushing/establishing Yokozuna, not Bret.

Yokozuna got a monster push. He debuted in October, won the royal rumble 3 months later (By eliminating Randy Savage), and won the WWF title a mania after 6 months on the roster. In the meantime, Bret feuded with midcardes like Papa Shango, Razor Ramon and Shawn Michaels (Razor and Shawn only started to become bigger stars later in 93)

- Wrestlemania was Yokozunas moment. Not Brets.

Hogan was on his way out. Vince needed a new star. I beleive he wanted Yokozuna to be the new Andre, and Luger to be the new Hogan. Bret was there to make Yoko look good, and for Yoko to get a pin on a credible opponent, so Vince' true chosen one could overcome the odds.
Yoko was the first heel ever to win the title at mania. I think it's pretty obvious that he had Vince's focus, not Bret.
I think the Hogan title win might have been booked as a "feel good moment". Vince wanted Yoko to win a mania, but did'nt want to send the crowd home after a heel victory.

- Yoko SQASHED Hogan.

Seriously. Look up the king of the ring match. Up to that point Hogan had NEVER looked this weak. He constantly failed the strength lockups, his comebacks were ineffective, he couldn't get Yoko off his feet, Hogan hit Yoko with three big boots and the big leg, and still couldn't get the pin. When Yoko defeated Hogan. He had steamrolled all the big faces in six months. Vince now had his monster.

To sum it all up. I think it's obvious that Vince was giving Yokozuna a monster push, while Bret was somewhat of an afterthought. I simply can't see Vince ever considering Bret vs Hogan for mania. I think he always intended Luger, or someone else, to be the next face of the company. Why else book a monster heel to go over your current champ + the two biggest faces of the last decade (Savage and Hogan)?
 

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I thought the rumor was Summerslam?
Bret gets the belt back from Hogan.

Most people go off Bret's word but the problem with that is Vince plays games with talent to keep them motivated. He's going to tell Bret yeah do your thing and I'll have you tapping Hogan, Warrior out in 4 months. It's why Hogan had to pull him to Vince' s office so he could hear that Vince never came to that arrangement with him.

Hogan didn't want to job to Bret though. Too small, he's a face so it's a bigger deal than losing to a heel in a dusty manner. At that point in time he was protecting himself for a possible WCW run.
 

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Re: Was Bret really supposed to face hogan at Mania 9?

Hogan probably didn't want to job to Bret. Given his track record, this is the most logical answer.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I haven't heard Summerslam being mentioned before. I don't think that was ever the plan. Hogan was 99% out of the door by 92. He only wrestled at Wm8, Wm9 and made his final appearance at king of the ring. No way were they counting on Hogan being around for Summerslam 93.
 

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I haven't heard Summerslam being mentioned before. I don't think that was ever the plan. Hogan was 99% out of the door by 92. He only wrestled at Wm8, Wm9 and made his final appearance at king of the ring. No way were they counting on Hogan being around for Summerslam 93.
At one point Hogan vs Yokozuna was the planned Main Event at Summerslam and that's where they came up with the big America theme. Hogan wanted the belt back though, Vince wanted a dq ending and Hogan bolted. Vince just subbed Luger in for Hogan then.
 

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Re: Was Bret really supposed to face hogan at Mania 9?

I always heard Hogan thought Bret was too small.

Something he wound up saying about Billy Kidman later on, and Kidman is about the same size as Bret so that made sense.

I think it was just Hogan didn't want to lose to Bret, so he took his ball and went home, went to go make 3 ninjas, or mr. Santa or whatever, and then got Eric bischoff to be a money mark for him.
 

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Re: Was Bret really supposed to face hogan at Mania 9?

All I know is I have a hard time believing those alleged pictures that were taken of Bret and Hogan doing a tug of war over the belt for a SummerSlam poster promo wouldn't have been seen by now if they actually existed.

I'm not going to doubt Hogan having questions about Bret being "worthy" or whatever, I mean why wouldn't he. He had been who he was for so long and just recently jobbed clean to Warrior and saw that go nowhere. Plus Bret up to that point was just not someone to look at as being a great choice as someone who got to beat Hogan clean, I don't care how great he became or whatever. He was just not ready for that yet.

Anyway maybe it was all as far along as claimed, maybe not. Me personally, I'm in the "not" category. I just don't think it was as close as it's made out to be.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I haven't heard Summerslam being mentioned before. I don't think that was ever the plan. Hogan was 99% out of the door by 92. He only wrestled at Wm8, Wm9 and made his final appearance at king of the ring. No way were they counting on Hogan being around for Summerslam 93.


At one point Hogan vs Yokozuna was the planned Main Event at Summerslam and that's where they came up with the big America theme. Hogan wanted the belt back though, Vince wanted a dq ending and Hogan bolted. Vince just subbed Luger in for Hogan then.
When was this planned though? It doesnt make sense to me.
Hogan was pretty much done with the WWF in early 92. He only had 3 ppv apperances in 92+93. I doubt Vince pushed Yokozuna that much, for him to job twice to Hogan. They billed his WM 8 match as Hogans retirement match, Vince must have known he wouldnt stick around long. And Hogans image was hurt by the steroid trial, and he wasn't the draw he was just 2 years earlier.

And why would Hogan leave the company, because he wouldn't accept a dq finish? He was perfectly fine with Yoko squashing him and taking the title at king of the ring. Seems like that would have been a more fitting time for him to be upset and leave.
 

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Re: Was Bret really supposed to face hogan at Mania 9?

This is all speculation of course, but I never thought Hogan has ever liked the idea of facing other faces during his career in the red & yellow. It's not always worked out for him in terms of a popularity battle by the time the mid '90s had come along (Warrior being an example).

But let's say he did have faced Bret at WM9. In terms of overall matwork, Bret has always blown Hogan clear out of the water and even Bret at 41 yrs of age, by the time he finally did face Hogan on Nitro, looked so much more smooth and polished compared to Hogan's same old dog & pony show we've been seeing since we first saw him, that it is quite probable that Hogan would not have wanted to looked embarrassing on a Wrestlemania next to a ring general like Bret Hart, and btw, Bret was at his most over at this time.
 

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Re: Was Bret really supposed to face hogan at Mania 9?

This is all speculation of course, but I never thought Hogan has ever liked the idea of facing other faces during his career in the red & yellow. It's not always worked out for him in terms of a popularity battle by the time the mid '90s had come along (Warrior being an example).
Hogan could have turned heel in 93.

His match with Bret would have been huge.
 

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Re: Was Bret really supposed to face hogan at Mania 9?

No, Bret was supposed to face Hogan at Summerslam ' 93 for the title and the idea was Hogan would pass the torch to Bret with the WWF's theme of being all about the "New Generation" at the time. Bret goes into fine detail on this in his book.

Hogan was distant with Bret leading up to Mania 9 when Hart had the title and Bret chalked it up to Hulk seeing him as the competition. Then Hogan was all smiles and gratitude after Hogan "won" it from Yoko at the end of the show. Hogan said he'd return the favor to Bret, Bret said he'd hold him to that promise, and the plan was for a big match at Summerslam.

The two even had a secret photo shoot in Halifax that spring where they posed in a tug o' war with the title.

Then Vince started playing head games with both of them because he and Hulk were in a standoff about his contract. Bret heard from Vince that Hulk didn't want to put him over, and when Bret confronted him, Hulk said it wasn't true and that Vince had changed the match to be non-title, at which point Hogan saw no point to the match. Bret, remembering the photo shoot, confronted Hulk and Vince at the same time, where Vince then claimed, "I never said it would be a title match."

In the end, it was just a bunch of head games from Vince where he tried to stir heat in the locker room, which was his #1 move when his wrestlers started to stand up for themselves. But I've always believed Hulk didn't want to do the job anyway because he knew Bret was the biggest star in the WWF and when it came down to it, the fans would cheer for the Hitman and root against the dying embers of Hulkamania.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
This is all speculation of course, but I never thought Hogan has ever liked the idea of facing other faces during his career in the red & yellow. It's not always worked out for him in terms of a popularity battle by the time the mid '90s had come along (Warrior being an example).

But let's say he did have faced Bret at WM9. In terms of overall matwork, Bret has always blown Hogan clear out of the water and even Bret at 41 yrs of age, by the time he finally did face Hogan on Nitro, looked so much more smooth and polished compared to Hogan's same old dog & pony show we've been seeing since we first saw him, that it is quite probable that Hogan would not have wanted to looked embarrassing on a Wrestlemania next to a ring general like Bret Hart, and btw, Bret was at his most over at this time.
You might be right that Hogan wanted to avoid face vs face matches. Maybe he feared the day when people would turn against him. However I don't think he wanted to avoid Bret because of Brets superior in ring skills. He had already feuded with Savage in 89, Perfect in 90 and was supposed to feud with Flair in 92. Besides, characters an storytelling were far more important than ringwork in the early 90's ?
 

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Re: Was Bret really supposed to face hogan at Mania 9?

A missed opportunity and I would have liked to have seen what kind of match it would have been. Esp if Bret was allowed to share his own ideas of how the structure of the match would be booked.
 

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Re: Was Bret really supposed to face hogan at Mania 9?

No, Bret was supposed to face Hogan at Summerslam ' 93 for the title and the idea was Hogan would pass the torch to Bret with the WWF's theme of being all about the "New Generation" at the time. Bret goes into fine detail on this in his book.

Hogan was distant with Bret leading up to Mania 9 when Hart had the title and Bret chalked it up to Hulk seeing him as the competition. Then Hogan was all smiles and gratitude after Hogan "won" it from Yoko at the end of the show. Hogan said he'd return the favor to Bret, Bret said he'd hold him to that promise, and the plan was for a big match at Summerslam.

The two even had a secret photo shoot in Halifax that spring where they posed in a tug o' war with the title.

Then Vince started playing head games with both of them because he and Hulk were in a standoff about his contract. Bret heard from Vince that Hulk didn't want to put him over, and when Bret confronted him, Hulk said it wasn't true and that Vince had changed the match to be non-title, at which point Hogan saw no point to the match. Bret, remembering the photo shoot, confronted Hulk and Vince at the same time, where Vince then claimed, "I never said it would be a title match."

In the end, it was just a bunch of head games from Vince where he tried to stir heat in the locker room, which was his #1 move when his wrestlers started to stand up for themselves. But I've always believed Hulk didn't want to do the job anyway because he knew Bret was the biggest star in the WWF and when it came down to it, the fans would cheer for the Hitman and root against the dying embers of Hulkamania.

I mean...That's if you take Brets word as gospel. Like the guy, but he's probably the most bitter human being I've ever seen. I literally don't think he likes...well anything. Hogan tells a completely different story, and quite honestly I don't find either of them believable. Of course pictures from this photoshoot would clear everything up, but 25 years later and nothing. Were they destroyed? Where are they? I mean Jesus, they found pristine footage of the Last Battle in Atlanta for the network. Where are these pictures?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
No, Bret was supposed to face Hogan at Summerslam ' 93 for the title and the idea was Hogan would pass the torch to Bret with the WWF's theme of being all about the "New Generation" at the time. Bret goes into fine detail on this in his book.

Hogan was distant with Bret leading up to Mania 9 when Hart had the title and Bret chalked it up to Hulk seeing him as the competition. Then Hogan was all smiles and gratitude after Hogan "won" it from Yoko at the end of the show. Hogan said he'd return the favor to Bret, Bret said he'd hold him to that promise, and the plan was for a big match at Summerslam.

The two even had a secret photo shoot in Halifax that spring where they posed in a tug o' war with the title.

Then Vince started playing head games with both of them because he and Hulk were in a standoff about his contract. Bret heard from Vince that Hulk didn't want to put him over, and when Bret confronted him, Hulk said it wasn't true and that Vince had changed the match to be non-title, at which point Hogan saw no point to the match. Bret, remembering the photo shoot, confronted Hulk and Vince at the same time, where Vince then claimed, "I never said it would be a title match."

In the end, it was just a bunch of head games from Vince where he tried to stir heat in the locker room, which was his #1 move when his wrestlers started to stand up for themselves. But I've always believed Hulk didn't want to do the job anyway because he knew Bret was the biggest star in the WWF and when it came down to it, the fans would cheer for the Hitman and root against the dying embers of Hulkamania.
If Bret was supposed to face Hogan, and Hogan backed out. Why not make Bret vs Yoko 2? It made perfect sense with the screwjob finish at mania. I just don't believe it.

Bret won the King of the Ring and started a feud with Lawler. Vince knew Hogan was dropping the belt that night. So the Hogan Bret title match must have been planned and scrapped before King of the ring. If Vince knew Hogan was dropping the title, and he wanted Bret as the new face, why not build Bret for the summerslam match? Instead. Vince pushes Luger and Bret gets stuck in a midcard feud with Lawler, and the proceeds to feud with Owen.

None of this screams "Bret was supposed to main event summerslam vs Hogan" to me ?
 

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Re: Was Bret really supposed to face hogan at Mania 9?

If Bret was supposed to face Hogan, and Hogan backed out. Why not make Bret vs Yoko 2? It made perfect sense with the screwjob finish at mania. I just don't believe it.

Bret won the King of the Ring and started a feud with Lawler. Vince knew Hogan was dropping the belt that night. So the Hogan Bret title match must have been planned and scrapped before King of the ring. If Vince knew Hogan was dropping the title, and he wanted Bret as the new face, why not build Bret for the summerslam match? Instead. Vince pushes Luger and Bret gets stuck in a midcard feud with Lawler, and the proceeds to feud with Owen.

None of this screams "Bret was supposed to main event summerslam vs Hogan" to me ?
This was at a time when the WWF still planned things out months in advance. Shortly after Hogan won the title in April at Mania, they mapped things out that led to Hogan/Hart at Summerslam. King of the Ring was gonna be Hulk/Yoko in a rematch where Hulk went over, ultimately leading to going up against Bret, who'd be getting his long-awaited rematch for the title.

Then all the mind games bullshit happened, Vince paired Bret with Doink/Lawler at Summerslam and Hulk was finishing up with the WWF after King of the Ring. Vince thought he was appeasing Bret by having him win the tournament, but Bret let him have it after walking through the curtain.

So instead of a truly historic showdown between the representatives of two different eras, we got nothing.

Well, we got Hogan "doing the honors" by way of a fucking camera exploding in his face, lol.
 

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Re: Was Bret really supposed to face hogan at Mania 9?

This was at a time when the WWF still planned things out months in advance. Shortly after Hogan won the title in April at Mania, they mapped things out that led to Hogan/Hart at Summerslam. King of the Ring was gonna be Hulk/Yoko in a rematch where Hulk went over, ultimately leading to going up against Bret, who'd be getting his long-awaited rematch for the title.

Then all the mind games bullshit happened, Vince paired Bret with Doink/Lawler at Summerslam and Hulk was finishing up with the WWF after King of the Ring. Vince thought he was appeasing Bret by having him win the tournament, but Bret let him have it after walking through the curtain.

So instead of a truly historic showdown between the representatives of two different eras, we got nothing.

Well, we got Hogan "doing the honors" by way of a fucking camera exploding in his face, lol.

Again. Hogan says he told Vince he would put Yoko over and KOTR and he was out. You're basically just saying "Hogans lying, Bret isn't. " You might be right. But without proof like that photoshoot that 25 years later no one has ever seen but the people in the room apparently, who knows.
 

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Re: Was Bret really supposed to face hogan at Mania 9?

I'd hardly call how Hogan lost at KOTR "putting Yoko over".
 

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Re: Was Bret really supposed to face hogan at Mania 9?

Again. Hogan says he told Vince he would put Yoko over and KOTR and he was out. You're basically just saying "Hogans lying, Bret isn't. " You might be right. But without proof like that photoshoot that 25 years later no one has ever seen but the people in the room apparently, who knows.
I'm not saying anyone's lying. Don't try to twist my words or put words in my mouth. I'm just telling people what Bret wrote in his book from his POV. I don't have Hogan's POV in front of me. If it went down another way according to him, fair enough.

Personally, I've always believed the one mostly at fault is Vince.
 
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