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-Whats the difference between the indies and WWE? Control on the character. On the indies, you have a big say on your character. You know what to do to make yourself interesting. In the E, everything is scripted, micromanaged and morphed into something Mcmahon thinks is marketable. You yourself said, these guys were interesting before the came to the WWE. Now there here, its not like they suddenly lose motivation. They still want to win the main title and be the best that they can be but they know if they push it too much they'll get fucked. Sami Zayn is known to be very passionate and argumentative with agents about his performances so they decided to punish him by protraying him like a geek for it. Jinder Mahal had to resort to bending the rules to inflate his physique. Charlotte wanted to do a moonsault of the goddamn Hell in the cell cage. So tell me again how most of these guys are just resting on their laurels and don't want to improve themselves?

Because trust me they do. These guys don't get this far without having passion or at least an insane amount of talent. But so many suffer due to the micromanagement of the WWE. They know that sometimes, no matter how good you are they will not get pushed. No matter how passionate you are, no matter how hardworking you are, it does not matter shit to Vince unless you're marketable. And if you try to push your ideas too hard, you'll get punished for it. What kind of person would not lose passion and motivation in that kind of work environment? Yet there are still a huge amount of these guy trying to improve themselves and get better. You can say whatever about Jinder, but he wanted this bad and he improved himself. Theres so many people trying to climb the ladder and show everyone how good they can be that get stiffled by creative. When guys in NXT move to the main roster, they usually underperform and get called as overhyped in NXT. No mate, its because NXT is 't under the all seeing eye and control of Vince bloody Mcmahon. Again, whats the difference? Its not the talent, its Vince, the writers and the level of micromanagement.
I'm saying that many people aren't trying to improve their CHARACTERS. Doing a moonsault off of a cage is part of the problem(and it definitely isn't character). That is a spot for spot's sake. I'm not saying you shouldn't go down that road if it makes sense. Recklessly wanting to do that shouldn't be your go to for engaging a crowd. It is the definition of every problem tht is currently proliferating the industry.

These guys are playing the SAME characters in WWE as they were before. They aren't interesting now. They weren't interesting then. That's the problem. I'm not saying that they aren't passionate about their work. I'm saying that most people's passion isn't about becoming great compelling characters it's about getting this is awesome chants. AJ Styles has been playing the same character for 15 years bland boring AJ Styles. His in ring work is great his character work is was and always will be average at the best of times. He has never tried to improve that, nowhere he has worked has tried to improve that the settle for this is what he is and that's good enough. There are guys who are exempt from this criticism like Miz.

Vince didn't make Styles be a generic "I'm a good wrestler" charcater for 15 years he just accepted that this is what AJ Styles is. That's clearly indicative of either AJ desire to improve on that of his ability to do so. That cannot be placed on Russo or Jarrett or Vince or Gedo and Jado. As I said plenty of people have attempted to make much worse creative work. Some have even succeeded in doing so. The problem is as much on performers as it is the system they work in. Some people can't do better and some people don't try to do better. Kurt Angle under Vince's purview took every absurd, demeaning, and out right pathetic piece of booking and tried to make it work because he wanted to because Kurt Angle great wrestler wasn't good enough for him. He wanted more. That is something that seems to be lacking in a lot of performers these days.
 

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The truth with the WWE is that you need to make yourself big enough to not need them. You got to either be able to crossover to mainstream to make real money. There is only a couple of wrestlers in history that have made a fortune just wrestling in the WWE. Most wrestlers best bet is to be liked enough for the WWE to keep you around backstage after your career is over. Every wrestler should have that as their goal not to have the match of the night and be risky doing it
 

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I'm saying that many people aren't trying to improve their CHARACTERS. Doing a moonsault off of a cage is part of the problem(and it definitely isn't character). That is a spot for spot's sake. I'm not saying you shouldn't go down that road if it makes sense. Recklessly wanting to do that shouldn't be your go to for engaging a crowd. It is the definition of every problem tht is currently proliferating the industry.

These guys are playing the SAME characters in WWE as they were before. They aren't interesting now. They weren't interesting then. That's the problem. I'm not saying that they aren't passionate about their work. I'm saying that most people's passion isn't about becoming great compelling characters it's about getting this is awesome chants. AJ Styles has been playing the same character for 15 years bland boring AJ Styles. His in ring work is great his character work is was and always will be average at the best of times. He has never tried to improve that, nowhere he has worked has tried to improve that the settle for this is what he is and that's good enough. There are guys who are exempt from this criticism like Miz.

Vince didn't make Styles be a generic "I'm a good wrestler" charcater for 15 years he just accepted that this is what AJ Styles is. That's clearly indicative of either AJ desire to improve on that of his ability to do so. That cannot be placed on Russo or Jarrett or Vince or Gedo and Jado. As I said plenty of people have attempted to make much worse creative work. Some have even succeeded in doing so. The problem is as much on performers as it is the system they work in. Some people can't do better and some people don't try to do better. Kurt Angle under Vince's purview took every absurd, demeaning, and out right pathetic piece of booking and tried to make it work because he wanted to because Kurt Angle great wrestler wasn't good enough for him. He wanted more. That is something that seems to be lacking in a lot of performers these days.
They do not have control on their character. You act as if everyone who comes from the indies play the same character. No mate, they play either a different character, or a watered down version of the same character.

And I think you need to understand the differnce between a simple character and character work. AJ Styles is one of the most unique characters in the WWE currently. He is the indie god, the one nobody thought would make it to the WWE. He comes in, acts like the god of the indies, with how his wrestlers, how he is arrogant over other guys for not accomplishing as much elsewhere, how he hates the WWE produces wrestlers specifically Cena and is so obsessive with it to the point of stealing his nicknames. His character work is brilliant, and it shows in not just backstage or promo segments but also how he wrestles. Just because he does not have an outlandish character, does not mean he has average character work. Tell me, what could he possibly do to play the character that he is better in any way?

Guys who were taken from the indies are good. They have to be to get noticed. That means people have acknowledged they are good, their wrestling is good, their characters are good etc. Its just when the WWE machine tries to manipulate those chracters to what they want and control every single thing they say is what screws them. Again, I will repeat this. They do not have control of their character. Its a bit hard to improve your character when you don't have control over it.


And as for Angle, how is that relevant? Angle came in at a time when WWE weren't as out of touch or micromanaging. He had plenty of sway on what he wanted to do and how he wanted to do it. Angle wasn't even given shit. He was just given a more comedy character to play early on but the material is still there.
 

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This makes me think of a bit from an Al Snow interview I read recently where he said that in ECW they were letting the crowds dictate how they were working their matches. He felt that was bad at the time and feels that mentality is still affecting wrestlers today and the performers relationship with the audience. Half people in attendance at TV shows and most of them at PPVs are so busy trying to become the show they can't pay attention to the matches, they only care about the big spots because they can start a chant to them. They don't care about match psychology because they don't care about the stories the wrestlers are trying to tell. Things are much different at house shows.
 

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the obsession with stealing the show, without the little nuances that made the previous generations actually steal the show, has been cancerous imo

they push the boat out with more ambitious and over the top moves that have destroyed the psychological aspect of matches, finishers are near enough dead, heel tactics are dead

lesnar vs Goldberg at ss and wrestlemania showed more psychology than the rest of wwe has for years because they both put their characters over. what about seths wrestling shows hes an architect? what about Ambrose is actually a lunatic?

its a fucking joke

another point, not sure were i heard this but it makes total sense. these top rope finishers these days dont make sense in that the person doing the move doesn't rush to the top rope
at times it takes as long as 20 seconds to get to the top rope and steady themselves for the move, all the while the opponent just lays there. why not fucking pin him.
 
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