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The toxicity is on both sides and I think this is just a byproduct of the times we currently live in. Everyone is at each other's throats whether it's politics, fandoms or anything else along those lines. The fact that there's so much acrimony over fake fighting is indicitive of how low we are as a society right now.

What is even more hilarious is that if you transported both AEW and the 2019 version of WWE back to the year 2000 along with their respective fanbases, they would both get utterly destroyed in the ratings by the 2000 version of WCW which pretty much says it all as far as the product both companies are putting out.
facepalm
 

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Ilya Smirnov ate my puppy.
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I try to be measured with my negative criticism because I know I don't like the over the top comically negative stuff in the WWE section. I definitely don't get the hate watching thing either.
I think it's just how things are in general these days even outside of wrestling. It's seems like the only criticisms left most of the time are "This is the best thing ever" and "this is the worst thing ever". It's like there's no in-between lol.
It’s the new 140-character culture. Thank twatter and social media in general for focusing on and highlighting the extremes of everything, and generally just bringing out the worst in people. Not to mention how brave people tend to get when they can hide behind an anonymous keyboard. This forum is just a microcosm of that.
 

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You definitely have to temper your criticisms into the tone AEW fans want to hear. If you speak matter-of-factly and provide evidence, but they don’t like your tone? Troll! If you happen to think the show is overall bad, and here’s why? Troll!

I mean, you should just be able to say “AEW sux” and that be fine. It’s a forum. I prefer to discuss things, so I take people who can back up their opinion far more seriously, but it doesn’t make anyone’s less valid if they just want to share their conclusions.

There’s a lot of defensiveness because a lot of the negative predictions about AEW have come true. They haven’t set the world alight. They haven’t signed any major stars since the on-air launch. They haven’t been doing bad numbers, but they have been disappointing by wresting standards, even if no one wants to talk about that because “oh, well, they can’t be WWE—they’re just starting!”

And I think a lot of the sensitivity comes to the fan-friendliness the PWG guys foster. They’re “buddies.” They could slap hands with everybody at PWG and have a beer and a joint after the show. The fan-base is still small enough to feel “ownership” and criticism of the company feels personal.

They’re not the other anymore, folks. They have a TNT deal and the execs are probably on seven-figure deals. They don’t care about you and lie to you regularly. They ain’t your buddies. Their buddies have jobs, regardless of whether or not you want to pay to see them. Their buddies are sapping millions from Shahid Khan to ride a wave until they get out, regardless of the health of wrestling.
 

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IRAN #1
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There's so few of those fans it's not even worth acknowledging.. There's criticism with AEW all the time, the honeymoon period is over with AEW and the fans have no problem picking out the issues with them, like the Dark Order, the lackluster women's division, no rules during tag matches ect..
 

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Justice 4 Asuka
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I think constructive criticism is fine. I love AEW myself and have been invested in it right from the start, but if I see anything I don't like or where they can make improvements on then I'll say it, and there's plenty.

What I don't like though is people making accounts just to troll AEW. They're obviously just haters with nothing better to do.
 

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You definitely have to temper your criticisms into the tone AEW fans want to hear. If you speak matter-of-factly and provide evidence, but they don’t like your tone? Troll! If you happen to think the show is overall bad, and here’s why? Troll!

I mean, you should just be able to say “AEW sux” and that be fine. It’s a forum. I prefer to discuss things, so I take people who can back up their opinion far more seriously, but it doesn’t make anyone’s less valid if they just want to share their conclusions.

There’s a lot of defensiveness because a lot of the negative predictions about AEW have come true. They haven’t set the world alight. They haven’t signed any major stars since the on-air launch. They haven’t been doing bad numbers, but they have been disappointing by wresting standards, even if no one wants to talk about that because “oh, well, they can’t be WWE—they’re just starting!”

And I think a lot of the sensitivity comes to the fan-friendliness the PWG guys foster. They’re “buddies.” They could slap hands with everybody at PWG and have a beer and a joint after the show. The fan-base is still small enough to feel “ownership” and criticism of the company feels personal.

They’re not the other anymore, folks. They have a TNT deal and the execs are probably on seven-figure deals. They don’t care about you and lie to you regularly. They ain’t your buddies. Their buddies have jobs, regardless of whether or not you want to pay to see them. Their buddies are sapping millions from Shahid Khan to ride a wave until they get out, regardless of the health of wrestling.
Did you really expect them to start busting out 2-3m viewers with mostly unknown wrestlers, though? I’m trying to gauge where you stand, because while I usually agree with your points, you do come off very troll-ish. That may just be due to some previous arguments you had with the AEW fanboys that can’t stand criticism of “their” product.

I don’t know.

Another question, how old are you? This is something I’m really curious about with most of the board. I feel like I represent an in-between generation of fan that falls in the middle of WWE boredom and AEW flippity floppity shit. Yes, the flipping is over the top, but I always loved starting off Nitro with a gang busting 6-man tag match with Mysterio, Psychosis, LaParka, Juventud, etc. So, while I don’t think a show should be littered with it, I do enjoy it as an undercard.

Not trying to judge you; just curious if what seems to be differing viewpoints stems from a generational thing. Or that maybe you were a WWF fan and prefer the slow, plodding guys.
 

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Salt of the Earth
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From what I've seen, most of those complaining are those who loved wrestling as a kid and are now grown up, compare everything to the past, "everything was better in my day" types who want to know why AEW isn't a reincarnation of a product that was around two decades ago.

Probably best to ignore those. They're the types who are embarrassed to tell people they watch wrestling.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I think the beauty of having several alternatives for good wrestling will keep the industry alive. If a particular company isn't doing it for me at the time I'll concentrate on one of those alternatives.
Nothing against AEW but It's not resonating with me yet due to lack of familiarity and questionable booking ( though I keep watching like a mark). It has been the same with WWE several times over the years. I guess being pro WWE I don't want to be labelled as brainwashed or part of the evil empire if I question a direction taken by it's competition.
 

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Is this guy delusional? This section has been entirely reasonable with pretty fair view of the product. I don't see much stupid marking out.

Is he fooling us to pretend hes not a hater lol
 

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Did you really expect them to start busting out 2-3m viewers with mostly unknown wrestlers, though? I’m trying to gauge where you stand, because while I usually agree with your points, you do come off very troll-ish. That may just be due to some previous arguments you had with the AEW fanboys that can’t stand criticism of “their” product.

I don’t know.

Another question, how old are you? This is something I’m really curious about with most of the board. I feel like I represent an in-between generation of fan that falls in the middle of WWE boredom and AEW flippity floppity shit. Yes, the flipping is over the top, but I always loved starting off Nitro with a gang busting 6-man tag match with Mysterio, Psychosis, LaParka, Juventud, etc. So, while I don’t think a show should be littered with it, I do enjoy it as an undercard.

Not trying to judge you; just curious if what seems to be differing viewpoints stems from a generational thing. Or that maybe you were a WWF fan and prefer the slow, plodding guys.
I expected them to have a better philosophy that could potentially garner more stars which would alter perception. With the Khans having the money they have, there is no reason they couldn't have made real plays for AJ Styles, Shinsuke Nakamura, The Usos and Cain Velasquez, just like they did with Randy Orton. They also could have bought out Jacob Fatu, Tom Lawlor, Low Ki, Jay Lethal, The Briscoes, Jeff Cobb and PCO from ROH. I mean, I'm just plucking names out of my ass there. I don't think it's because the money isn't there, but it's because their philosophy just sends up warning lights for anyone who has studied the industry and its history, and that has done more to alter their perception within the industry as well as with long-term fans of wrestling.

And Cody himself dropped the Ellis Island line on Dynamite for a pop. They want people to come over, just like Dustin Rhodes, Jon Moxley, Shawn Spears and even Kris Statlander. I don't know if it will come from you, but don't buy the "they only want certain guys" bullshit. That's the proper line so they don't get "WWE reject" imagery associated with them. But they know full well that they would benefit if they got Styles, Nakamura, Orton and The Usos from WWE. None is a star the size of Hogan, but Orton and Styles, especially, are important and marketable within the genre (as JR would call it), and that would help with advertising and reaching other business partnerships (I've been saying this since my very pro-AEW days). Nakamura would help with potential New Japan discussions (as would Styles). The Usos would help break up the idea that "The Family" is WWE 4 Lyf. Hell, Orton would prove that no one is WWE 4 Lyf. And you want the media, wrestling and more widespread, to pick up the idea that even big stars are leaving the WWE for this new golden promotion.

When you have stars, when you have fresh young faces that aren't the leftovers from the indies, when you focus on logical booking and don't bog yourself down in PWG fan service, there is absolutely, positively, no reason you cannot compete with Raw and SmackDown. JR and Chris Jericho said it themselves, and I don't think it's a coincidence they are two of the guys who jumped to this thing: All you need to compete with Vince McMahon is the money. That's it. If you can put on a large-scale production show and can pay the talent (the proper talent) to show up and give them a chance to be stars, then there is no reason Johnny Average will not switch over from a tedious three-hour Raw on a Monday night. There is absolutely no reason at all.

Knowing what I do now: No, there is no way an AEW presentation could ever get that many viewers. Their audience is capped at that Double or Nothing audience that corresponds to the 1.4 million who watched the first week. But I don't think it is impossible for a god's honest wrestling promotion to get the ratings that Raw gets on basic cable. There is zero reason to think this other than years of programming suggesting that Raw is #1 and always will be. Yes, and Law & Order is still the highest rated drama in the world, or whatever.

I'm 29 years old. I don't mind some fast-paced action, if it makes sense and the guys know how to properly work that style. It's got to feel more snug for me. A lot of these guys don't know how to throw a working punch. It also works a lot better if it's not the main event style as well as the opening act. Everyone does the same shit now. As Brian Last says "The Junior Heavyweights took over the world." I used to love that shit when I was 14, but you grow out of it, because you realize that once you've seen it, you've seen it. It's funky and fun when it's fresh. You can't keep doing it and expect bigger and better results though. It also needs psychology and context.

That's why I was against the WWE Cruiserweight Division. You have cruiserweights up and down their cards. Daniel Bryan, by old standards, is a cruiserweight. CM Punk was a cruiserweight until they lowered it to 220lbs. You can't have these guys in a main event and have a division underneath of guys doing the exact same thing and expect people to care.

So anyway, I'm not against the higher octane-style, per se. It's just how it's used and how it's presented.
 

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I expected them to have a better philosophy that could potentially garner more stars which would alter perception. With the Khans having the money they have, there is no reason they couldn't have made real plays for AJ Styles, Shinsuke Nakamura, The Usos and Cain Velasquez, just like they did with Randy Orton. They also could have bought out Jacob Fatu, Tom Lawlor, Low Ki, Jay Lethal, The Briscoes, Jeff Cobb and PCO from ROH. I mean, I'm just plucking names out of my ass there. I don't think it's because the money isn't there, but it's because their philosophy just sends up warning lights for anyone who has studied the industry and its history, and that has done more to alter their perception within the industry as well as with long-term fans of wrestling.

And Cody himself dropped the Ellis Island line on Dynamite for a pop. They want people to come over, just like Dustin Rhodes, Jon Moxley, Shawn Spears and even Kris Statlander. I don't know if it will come from you, but don't buy the "they only want certain guys" bullshit. That's the proper line so they don't get "WWE reject" imagery associated with them. But they know full well that they would benefit if they got Styles, Nakamura, Orton and The Usos from WWE. None is a star the size of Hogan, but Orton and Styles, especially, are important and marketable within the genre (as JR would call it), and that would help with advertising and reaching other business partnerships (I've been saying this since my very pro-AEW days). Nakamura would help with potential New Japan discussions (as would Styles). The Usos would help break up the idea that "The Family" is WWE 4 Lyf. Hell, Orton would prove that no one is WWE 4 Lyf. And you want the media, wrestling and more widespread, to pick up the idea that even big stars are leaving the WWE for this new golden promotion.

When you have stars, when you have fresh young faces that aren't the leftovers from the indies, when you focus on logical booking and don't bog yourself down in PWG fan service, there is absolutely, positively, no reason you cannot compete with Raw and SmackDown. JR and Chris Jericho said it themselves, and I don't think it's a coincidence they are two of the guys who jumped to this thing: All you need to compete with Vince McMahon is the money. That's it. If you can put on a large-scale production show and can pay the talent (the proper talent) to show up and give them a chance to be stars, then there is no reason Johnny Average will not switch over from a tedious three-hour Raw on a Monday night. There is absolutely no reason at all.

Knowing what I do now: No, there is no way an AEW presentation could ever get that many viewers. Their audience is capped at that Double or Nothing audience that corresponds to the 1.4 million who watched the first week. But I don't think it is impossible for a god's honest wrestling promotion to get the ratings that Raw gets on basic cable. There is zero reason to think this other than years of programming suggesting that Raw is #1 and always will be. Yes, and Law & Order is still the highest rated drama in the world, or whatever.

I'm 29 years old. I don't mind some fast-paced action, if it makes sense and the guys know how to properly work that style. It's got to feel more snug for me. A lot of these guys don't know how to throw a working punch. It also works a lot better if it's not the main event style as well as the opening act. Everyone does the same shit now. As Brian Last says "The Junior Heavyweights took over the world." I used to love that shit when I was 14, but you grow out of it, because you realize that once you've seen it, you've seen it. It's funky and fun when it's fresh. You can't keep doing it and expect bigger and better results though. It also needs psychology and context.

That's why I was against the WWE Cruiserweight Division. You have cruiserweights up and down their cards. Daniel Bryan, by old standards, is a cruiserweight. CM Punk was a cruiserweight until they lowered it to 220lbs. You can't have these guys in a main event and have a division underneath of guys doing the exact same thing and expect people to care.

So anyway, I'm not against the higher octane-style, per se. It's just how it's used and how it's presented.
Cool. That’s about the best explanation I could have received and find that we agree on a lot more philosophically than I would have thought, especially the cruiserweight stuff. Not that I think everyone should be 250+, but I do like the idea of the main event being far less flipping and more psychological, which creates a tension and “realism”.

But I really do appreciate the honest take. I’ll stay loyal to the product despite the things I don’t like while voicing my displeasure, simply because I don’t think we can afford to have them fail. This is the one aspect where I think Cornette hits the nail on the head: this may be the last time a 2nd wrestling promotion in the US gets a viable chance — as you said, the money is and has always been the most important aspect in competing with Vince.
 

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Generally, i've said and written almost all positives about AEW. But in fairness, whenever i talk a little negative about what is happening in AEW, some die hards will have a heart attack. Heck, i was critical of NXT forever until they recently began putting on better angles/stories, etc as of late. We all have to welcome different opinions as long as they are appropriate within the context of the conversation.
 

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Which is very easy to comprehend to the rest of us, when conveyed this way. It's only when the negativity is brought up by the same users over and over again, swearing they'll never watch AEW, only to be back the following week, barking about what sucks now. The haters claim that AEW fans are in an echo chamber, when it's obviously the complete opposite.
I said you want it to be an echo chamber, not that it is. I also never said any of the other stuff. Is it possible that you're confusing me with someone else? Possibly someone who doesn't watch the show religiously in an attempt to enjoy the entirety of the show? Possibly someone who doesn't pay $50 for their PPV's? Just out of curiosity, do you do that?
 

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Hi OP. You are right in that many users (definitely more than "a handful") are quick to shoot down any criticism. Often very dismissively and rudely. It's not OK and should not be the case, but that is the internet and the fan base (you already know).

You should still give your praise and critique the same. You can always block the repetitive respondents, those who make it clear they're not there to discuss but only argue and say "NO!". Just do so in good taste, which I find common sense but many struggle. This is the wrestling industry's chance to start fresh! If we keep ignoring the harsh, dismissive, troll-like users eventually they'll give up. Or, we put them on ignore.

Also understand, there are as many dismissive, pro-AEW no matter what people as there are incendiary, anti-AEW people who will go overboard. Then, there are tactful and welcoming to discussion threads and threads which are meant to be a mini-rant. Two drastic examples:

@RainmakerV2 made the Rhiho thread (Riho is a Disaster.) and went overboard. Rainmaker wasn't looking to discuss but just complain. They would have given multiple times Riho was bad, other people who could be better, why they're better, and then ask the forum for their opinion, initiating in discussion. This is not a discussion made in good faith.

However, I made a wonderful thread (Competent Refs will be a game changer for professional wrestling) about good reffing very early on. I gave things I liked, didn't liked, how AEW could improve....all without using extremes and shitting on their current product. I asked for feedback and got some in depth discussion. Shortly after, more ref threads popped up, Jericho is now known for having talked to the roster about obeying refs, and the gripe was legitimate.

If someone makes a thread where they completely crap on AEW, offer no alternatives, don't ask for opinions, and are demanding immediate changes, that's not a person who wants to discuss or improve AEW. They just want to think they know more than a billion dollar company.
This is one thing that I'd like to see in the WWE section. Instead of constant whinging, people should talk about what they think would make it better. How they would debut someone (That Morrison thread is relevant) or how they'd push someone better. Also where are all of the complaints from AEW fans about what the general wrestling community have turned the WWE section into over the years? "You merely adopted the dark; I was born in it" comes to mind. In other words, they should get over it. It's nothing new to have negativity infesting this forum and if they aren't going to fight for equality among all sections then they're just being hypocrites and expecting their company to be untouchable
 

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in what way? I have also critiqued AEW several times - I am not a fan of the spotfests, I don't think the win loss thing is actually any good.

Genuine critiques that are not designed to bait people are available:


Then you have threads like this : Missed opportunities

@RapShepard is one of the most critical posters in this sxn, but actually you can see that he actually watches the product. One of the top posters in the sxn.

When someone mentions Sonny Kiss or Marko Stunt, you KNOW they don't watch the product. Lowcard jobbers that barely make appearances, but somehow get mentioned the most.
Same with those who bring up Hornswoggle in the WWE right?
 

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I said you want it to be an echo chamber, not that it is. I also never said any of the other stuff. Is it possible that you're confusing me with someone else? Possibly someone who doesn't watch the show religiously in an attempt to enjoy the entirety of the show? Possibly someone who doesn't pay $50 for their PPV's? Just out of curiosity, do you do that?
No, my post was not aimed at you. My reply was to a user named tducey.
 

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Southern Pride
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When someone is a fan of something they of course are going to defend as much as possible. Nothing wrong with that.

Most of us know that AEW isn't perfect. It has its flaws and we admit to them fairly, but we choose to look at the positive things instead of dwelling in negativity. At least for me, reading so much repetitive negativity in the WWE sections gets old after awhile.
 
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