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SGT. AT ARMS
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Discussion Starter #1
Where a champion retains the belt if theres a DQ or count out, its just a dumb rule and i've always thought that. I mean in UFC if a champion in a championship fight does something illegal, like a straight kick to the balls he loses his title plain and simple.

Cause thinking about it logically any heel champion why don't they all just straight hit the ref or hit the opponent in the balls right off the bat and save their title? Thats a big part of the rule being so dumb, its like why don't every heel just get dq'ed or counted out and save themselves the hassle?

Why should the champion be given that luxury of having the option of just saying "Ah fuck it i wanna keep my belt i'm gonna cheat" its so fucking dumb. Then occasionally you'll have the authority figure make a rematch where they can lose their title on DQ or count out, i'm just like why not make that permanent rule for all champions? Ya know then you wouldn't have to worry about ur heel champions doing that in the first place.
 

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Yeah makes no sense, if I was a heel champion I would just immediately kick my opponents in the balls the second the bell rung lol.
 

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Yeah it's pretty silly, why the hell would you even wrestle your opponent if all you have to do is get counted out. Second the bell rings i'd just take off.
 

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Asuka
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That's a logic issue, but making the title change hands on a DQ would also be a logic issue, because if you did that, it should be IMPOSSIBLE for a babyface to ever win a title match, because all the heel would have to do is get his buddy to slap him in the face when the bell rings and he wins the belt. That's why that rule isn't in place, because the reverse is even dumber.

They need a case by case system. If the champion loses on a DQ because he caused it to retain his title, he loses the belt, but if some fucker just runs out during a match and hits him, he retains. You can't lose your title because of something you had nothing to do with, that's bullshit. Count outs I'm less worried about, I think count outs should be title changes. If you walk out of a match, you've forfeited your belt as far as I'm concerned, but if you beat your opponent so badly that he can't make it back into the ring, you should win his belt. The only reason to not do that would be if somebody interferes, but if they review the tape and find interference, that should fall under the DQ rule I just talked about.
 

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Because in kayfabe, beating a wrestler due to dq or count out does not mean you are a better wrestler than the other guy. You need to actually beat him through pinfall or submission to prove that he is better than the champion.

In reality, during the territory days this rule was used a lot to keep the title belt on touring heel champions yet have the local face still win the match.

Although outdated, its still explainable because the heel doesn't want to risk to be put in a steel cage match or a no dq match if he pulls shit like this too often. But no one really tries to justify like this though.
 

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Actively avoiding Testicular Torsion
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Exactly. It has frustrated me since the early days of my wrestling fan career, before I realized it was scripted, where I would always wonder to myself why not hit your opponent with a chair or with a kick in the nuts to ensure you retain the title?

Sure you might look like a coward but then you get to retain every damn time you get a championship match.
 
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If they got rid of it though couldn't a face just technically have an ally come in and strike you so the champion gets DQ'ed and loses the title? Even though it's a heel move you still get the title.
 

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SGT. AT ARMS
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Discussion Starter #8
If they got rid of it though couldn't a face just technically have an ally come in and strike you so the champion gets DQ'ed and loses the title? Even though it's a heel move you still get the title.
Yeah but as a face they're characters are supposed to be full of integrity and all that, they wanna win it the right way so you wouldn't have that happen, unless they turned heel by doing it which would kinda be a cool way to turn.

Or they could just enforce a rule like if the champion gets dq'ed on purpose or counted out he loses his title but if the challenger gets dq'ed the belt doesn't change hands.
 

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TNA tried that. The belt could change hands on a DQ or countout. Didn't really work.
 
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WF's #1 Mox fan.
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Well Dean Ambrose has lost his champions advantage in the upcoming IC title match cos he can lose his title if he's DQed. You just know it's gonna end in stupid fuckery where Maryse gets involved and that. I just think it's a fucking stupid stip to have at a PPV where there's supposed to be no rules. And Dean only low blowed Miz cos Miz was gonna low blow him :lol
 

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I agree about it making no sense that a heel champion won't just get intentionally disqualified or counted out soon as the match starts. Especially if the heel is chickenshit and doing everything he can to avoid the match in the first place.

However, I disagree with the part about the title changing hands on a DQ or countout for everybody. Because if that's the case, a heel challenger with a manager, alliance with another heel or a neutral heel that has an issue with the face champion can cause him to lose the title every time. A babyface doesn't have that advantage and in the event that he does, depending on the type of babyface, it would conflict with his standing as a babyface to win & accept the title in a less than honorable way.

Best way around it is a rule where if the champion, face or heel, gets intentionally counted out or disqualified, they lose the title. That wouldn't apply to the challenger, as it would make no sense for the challenger to get disqualified or counted out on purpose. Then again, there's still a loophole in that. Someone can get involved on the heel champions behalf, causing a disqualification. And it could very well be intentional but how could you prove it? He could've conspired backstage and paid another heel off but deny any involvement in that heel's actions and get away with it everytime.
 

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Because in kayfabe, beating a wrestler due to dq or count out does not mean you are a better wrestler than the other guy. You need to actually beat him through pinfall or submission to prove that he is better than the champion.

In reality, during the territory days this rule was used a lot to keep the title belt on touring heel champions yet have the local face still win the match.

Although outdated, its still explainable because the heel doesn't want to risk to be put in a steel cage match or a no dq match if he pulls shit like this too often. But no one really tries to justify like this though.
^this

And while I may agree the rule may be a little silly, as other posters have shown, changing the rule would make things even more crazy and convoluted.

Basically, yeah it's pretty silly, but all of wrestling is pretty silly.
 

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SLAVE.
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Like people have said, heels not taking advantage of the advantage when they are Champions is dumb in itself. But can someone explain to me how the count out rule works? Sometimes they roll into the ring on their own, that breaks the count, other times it doesn't and they win the match by being the first one back in. Does the rule just change depending on the situation?
 

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It helps feuds develop. I doubt they're ever going to change it because it works in the bookers favor.
 

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Like people have said, heels not taking advantage of the advantage when they are Champions is dumb in itself. But can someone explain to me how the count out rule works? Sometimes they roll into the ring on their own, that breaks the count, other times it doesn't and they win the match by being the first one back in. Does the rule just change depending on the situation?
Do you mean when they roll in the ring then roll back out again? Because the count starts over.

If one guy just rolls in the ring the count will continue until the guy outside is counted out or gets in the ring, unless the guy in the ring exits again.
 

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Where a champion retains the belt if theres a DQ or count out, its just a dumb rule and i've always thought that. I mean in UFC if a champion in a championship fight does something illegal, like a straight kick to the balls he loses his title plain and simple.

Cause thinking about it logically any heel champion why don't they all just straight hit the ref or hit the opponent in the balls right off the bat and save their title? Thats a big part of the rule being so dumb, its like why don't every heel just get dq'ed or counted out and save themselves the hassle?

Why should the champion be given that luxury of having the option of just saying "Ah fuck it i wanna keep my belt i'm gonna cheat" its so fucking dumb. Then occasionally you'll have the authority figure make a rematch where they can lose their title on DQ or count out, i'm just like why not make that permanent rule for all champions? Ya know then you wouldn't have to worry about ur heel champions doing that in the first place.
Because it works? The dq rule is a story device. Its there for a plot device. It's like asking why joker doesn't just murder batman? It would be a pointless story would it not?

The dq rule exists for coward heels like the miz. Or for monster heels who brutalize like strowman.

Its also cheap and legitimately rips off fans. I'd rather a heel try and prove he can beat the face straight up with the dq in his back pocket. Cause promoters will do wrestlemanias or kingdoms with main event matches that end in 2 seconds just for grins

If anything get rid of the count out rule
 

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SLAVE.
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Do you mean when they roll in the ring then roll back out again? Because the count starts over.

If one guy just rolls in the ring the count will continue until the guy outside is counted out or gets in the ring, unless the guy in the ring exits again.
Oh that makes perfect sense, I'm not sure why I never registered that before. I am a fool.
 
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