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Jericho said to this day that's one of the worst decisions that he's ever had to suffer through.
I won't argue that.

I mean I somewhat respect Triple H for making that decision(as self-serving as it may have been) because it at least showed that he had confidence in what he and Jericho could achieve but to have it backfire so spectatcularly is crazy and that Vince just let them have it all while probably knowing they were screwed anyway.

For all the static that people give Hogan, he was an artist when it came to working crowds. One of the best to ever do it. Rock was no slouch at it between the bells either and I believe many people don't give him the credit he deserves for it.
 

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The likes of the first TLC's way back when probably would've gotten this sort of flack regarding the style. But the difference back then was they were the only matches of that type on the show. You had time to cool off and get in to some technical stuff or power stuff around that style of match. It wasn't AEW doing 3 tope suicida!!!! per match.
 

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It was Triple H's idea to main event as champion. Jericho told the story on his podcast.
And then that piece of sh** Triple HGH has the audacity to say that "the office" told him to main event WM X8 against Jericho as it was the championship match. Triple HGH was and will always be a lying sh** head.
 

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And then that piece of sh** Triple HGH has the audacity to say that "the office" told him to main event WM X8 against Jericho as it was the championship match. Triple HGH was and will always be a lying sh** head.
Listen, if you believe any wrestler's story 100% you're a fool. Somewhere between Triple H's story and Jericho's lies the truth. I'm sure Triple H wanted to go on last I'm sure Jericho wanted to go on last as well. Hell, I'm pretty sure that both guys knew that going on last was a fucking death sentence. It really doesn't matter because fact of the matter is that Hogan vs Rock tore that shit down. They were the main event. Everyone in the building knew it and everyone at home watching knew it and the more than subdued reaction to both matches that followed proves it.

On a separate note, I'm pretty sure it was this thread where @The Wood was suggesting that only people who can work 20 minutes called on the fly ought to be wrestling or some such thing WrestleMania X8 there wasn't one 20+ minute match
 

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The EST of NXT
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Discussion Starter #128 (Edited)
Listen, if you believe any wrestler's story 100% you're a fool. Somewhere between Triple H's story and Jericho's lies the truth. I'm sure Triple H wanted to go on last I'm sure Jericho wanted to go on last as well. Hell, I'm pretty sure that both guys knew that going on last was a fucking death sentence. It really doesn't matter because fact of the matter is that Hogan vs Rock tore that shit down. They were the main event. Everyone in the building knew it and everyone at home watching knew it and the more than subdued reaction to both matches that followed proves it.

On a separate note, I'm pretty sure it was this thread where @The Wood was suggesting that only people who can work 20 minutes called on the fly ought to be wrestling or some such thing WrestleMania X8 there wasn't one 20+ minute match
No, Jericho isn't lying. He's told the story multiple times on public venues and says he has video evidence to this day from 2002 showing that he wanted nothing to do with the storyline nor main eventing. He felt like an afterthought behind Stephanie McMahon before Austin and Rock were even in the picture.
 

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it's a tarp!
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If less truly was more, wrestlers 20 years out of their prime would be having better matches than in their prime.

The only wrestlers this applies to are the ones who have a reservoir of goodwill built up, or the king of re-invention Chris Jericho.
 

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He couldn't be more 100% spot on if he tried.

Pro Wrestling has become an overly choreographed spot fest full of failed gymnasts who don't actually know the first thing about Pro Wrestling or posses the slightest Pro Wrestling talent.

Where in the midst of a Generation of Spot Monkeys who cant do anything except chain together Spots.
 

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No, Jericho isn't lying. He's told the story multiple times on public venues and says he has video evidence to this day from 2002 showing that he wanted nothing to do with the storyline nor main eventing. He felt like an afterthought behind Stephanie McMahon before Austin and Rock were even in the picture.
He was an afterthought and his act as Undisputed Champion sucked balls anyway.

No wrestler has ever lied in multiple shoot interviews. LOL. They are notorious for it. Have you seen said video evidence? No. Has anyone here seen this alleged video? No. Then until it's out there it doesn't really exist and can't be used as proof of anything. If you want to believe Jericho that's fine and I have no doubt he was against that dumb ass storyline it was atrocious but unless he provides the proof it's still meaningless. The fact is regardless of his objections(even with the alleged video evidence) he was still "playing the good soldier" and is as complicit in that angle being terrible and the match lackluster as anyone else involved. It not being something he was happy about doing doesn't wash his fucking hands of it.
 

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The EST of NXT
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Discussion Starter #133
He was an afterthought and his act as Undisputed Champion sucked balls anyway.

No wrestler has ever lied in multiple shoot interviews. LOL. They are notorious for it. Have you seen said video evidence? No. Has anyone here seen this alleged video? No. Then until it's out there it doesn't really exist and can't be used as proof of anything. If you want to believe Jericho that's fine and I have no doubt he was against that dumb ass storyline it was atrocious but unless he provides the proof it's still meaningless. The fact is regardless of his objections(even with the alleged video evidence) he was still "playing the good soldier" and is as complicit in that angle being terrible and the match lackluster as anyone else involved. It not being something he was happy about doing doesn't wash his fucking hands of it.
How the fuck is he complicit by repeatedly saying he went to Triple H with his objections and got shut down multiple times? He definitely did not have pull in 2001, and Triple H didn't want to look dumb in a cheating angle. Who are you to call him a liar without evidence of the contrary?
 

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I see his point most definitely he makes a lot of sense. You start making people used to seeing crazy flip moves then it stops being special. The fans get tired of it they want to see something better, but you can't really top the flippy moves in terms of spectacle. The best wrestlers can do flips, but they choose the perfect moment WHEN to do it. AJ Styles comes to mind. Styles is a great athlete, always has been probably the best athlete wrestling has ever seen. He has never been the type of wrestler to just fly around non stop. Even in his younger days he always would build up to high spots. His moves felt special, felt awesome.

All these awesome high flying moves that we used to love and used to be shocked to see, it looks just normal now. It has become normalized.

The point is not to stop doing the flippy moves. Awesome athletic moves are still awesome. Moderation is key though. You don't have to work a match at full speed the whole time. You work up to those moments... the matches where it's just move after move after flip... they get old.
 

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Shawn Michaels's high flying moves were pretty basic compared to what some wrestlers do today. However I found a moonsault or an elbow off the top rope by Michaels to be more exciting than anything we see from the guys who do constant flips and these really innovative high flying moves.. When Michaels did his one or two high flying moves a match, it was within the context of a well told story. He hit them at points in the match when they would be more meaningful.
 

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I'll take you down the only road I've ever been do
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"MonkasaurusRex, post: 78150658, member: 621625"

Though it's funny hearing Undertaker talk about nuance when he spent the better part of a decade no selling moves and having the same garbage match.
Bingo. Although, most fans on this site aren't even old enough to remember that. It's a shame what Taker's done to his legacy over the past decade. He didn't have a match at last year's WM and no one even cared. Sad.

It's clear that Taker has entered the bitter stage of his career/life. Can't say I blame him much with how his career has went over the past decade or so.

Hopefully, we can have more matches like Taker/Goldberg in SA last year where both guys nearly killed eachother multiple times. Yeah. More of that, please.
 

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Also, stories like this always reminds me of the story Flair has told a bunch of times whenever an old timer criticizes the current generation. Back when he and Steamboat had their three 5 star matches in 1989, when he and Steamboat went backstage after one of those matches, an old timer went up to Flair and Steamboat and told them that they were doing too much, they need to sell more, they need to slow down, etc.

Point being, that was in 1989, and that even all time greats like Flair and Steamboat were once upon a time being criticized by old timers back when Flair and Steamboat were active wrestlers and doing a new style of match that no one was used to back in 1989. Point being, as Flair has said, it doesn't really mean much. Especially in today's era of short attention spanned fans at these shows, most of the time they only pop for high spots for some reason. So, I get the conuncdrum today's wrestlers are in with the mostly idiotic fans and the bad creative (until recently on Raw and NXT which are now good). I don't care what style of match you give me as long as I'm entertained. The problem with WWE in this era was and has been creative. Figure that out and the rest figures itself out.

Sidenote, damn this site is as bare-bones and dead as fuck these days. Thank God for other forums.
 

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The likes of the first TLC's way back when probably would've gotten this sort of flack regarding the style. But the difference back then was they were the only matches of that type on the show. You had time to cool off and get in to some technical stuff or power stuff around that style of match. It wasn't AEW doing 3 tope suicida!!!! per match.
This is true. Like there's nothing really wrong with a spotfest match. A spotfest match somewhere in the card just to make the fans pop like mad and jump to their feet for crazy move after crazy move.

The problem is that thesedays the vast, vast majority of matches are just spotfests, so they're not even exciting. It used to be exciting when the Hardys, or Lita, or RVD or whoever else would hit a suicide dive, top rope move, etc, thesedays you're guaranteed to see multiple over the top moves in every match. Even all the big man Pro Wrestlers of today bust these spots out rather than actually working a match like a big man should.
 

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Without sounding like a homophobe because I'm certainly not the lack of tough dudes on the roster is bugging me out. Its not about being a big muscle guy because I think many of the big guys in the past decade looked like sissies. What happend to the likes of Benoit,Batista,Austin,Goldberg, these guys had grit. The only up and coming guy that gives me this vibe is keith lee but then he starts doing the ballerina routine and im out of it again. Can anyone imagine Seth Rollins kicking anyones ass with his skinny fingers and wimpy wrists? Adam Cole? At one point they were the most credible from a kayfabe standpoint. Give me intense dudes,intense promos and guys looking like they want to kill eachother in there. Then teach those guys how to sell. No need to do Dolph Ziggler flippy overselling. Just look at the facials of Edge as Orton hit the rko on him and how he was twisting in agony. Thats selling. The promos,matches and even the freaking entrances are too chorepgraphed. Austin might have put his fists up on the apron everytime he walked into the ring 20 years ago but it looked real. When Finn Balor starts throwing his arms in the air and you see the crowd do it with him as the lights dim it looks cringey as hell but I bet Vince is thinking about how badass that is.
 

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Bingo. Although, most fans on this site aren't even old enough to remember that. It's a shame what Taker's done to his legacy over the past decade. He didn't have a match at last year's WM and no one even cared. Sad.

It's clear that Taker has entered the bitter stage of his career/life. Can't say I blame him much with how his career has went over the past decade or so.

Hopefully, we can have more matches like Taker/Goldberg in SA last year where both guys nearly killed eachother multiple times. Yeah. More of that, please.
Taker has always had asshole in him. Just go back to 2000/2001 to see that.

Didn't both guys get knocked loopy or something like that in that match? And wasn't it in extraordinary heat after a fucking exhausting and high-pressure flight? I mean, a shitty match is a shitty match, but these Saudi Arabia shows are fucking nuts.

Also, stories like this always reminds me of the story Flair has told a bunch of times whenever an old timer criticizes the current generation. Back when he and Steamboat had their three 5 star matches in 1989, when he and Steamboat went backstage after one of those matches, an old timer went up to Flair and Steamboat and told them that they were doing too much, they need to sell more, they need to slow down, etc.

Point being, that was in 1989, and that even all time greats like Flair and Steamboat were once upon a time being criticized by old timers back when Flair and Steamboat were active wrestlers and doing a new style of match that no one was used to back in 1989. Point being, as Flair has said, it doesn't really mean much. Especially in today's era of short attention spanned fans at these shows, most of the time they only pop for high spots for some reason. So, I get the conuncdrum today's wrestlers are in with the mostly idiotic fans and the bad creative (until recently on Raw and NXT which are now good). I don't care what style of match you give me as long as I'm entertained. The problem with WWE in this era was and has been creative. Figure that out and the rest figures itself out.

Sidenote, damn this site is as bare-bones and dead as fuck these days. Thank God for other forums.
You're not wrong, historically speaking, but I think it's the wrong lesson to learn. Flair and Steamboat were the top issue at the time. They had earned that spot too. They were the main event and they were what was drawing the tickets. They're also two of the best of all-time and the reason we are still discussing them is because they were exceptions that proved the rule. The whole thing with them slowing down is that other main events would not be able to touch them. And largely, that has been right, which is why it is still used as an example.

Also, people don't love those matches because it is "fast." People like them because of their story. To say there is no psychology in the Flair/Steamboat matches is just flat-out wrong. There are plenty of matches that people criticize for being "spotfests" that do lack any. Those matches extracted genuine emotion from people that they piqued and boiled.

As for the forums, I'm not sure how busy they used to be, but I always find something to do. That's much more than I can say for other boards, which have just DIED. AEW hasn't led to any sort of reformation or re-invigoration of wrestling. Everyone just seems far more tired.

Without sounding like a homophobe because I'm certainly not the lack of tough dudes on the roster is bugging me out. Its not about being a big muscle guy because I think many of the big guys in the past decade looked like sissies. What happend to the likes of Benoit,Batista,Austin,Goldberg, these guys had grit. The only up and coming guy that gives me this vibe is keith lee but then he starts doing the ballerina routine and im out of it again. Can anyone imagine Seth Rollins kicking anyones ass with his skinny fingers and wimpy wrists? Adam Cole? At one point they were the most credible from a kayfabe standpoint. Give me intense dudes,intense promos and guys looking like they want to kill eachother in there. Then teach those guys how to sell. No need to do Dolph Ziggler flippy overselling. Just look at the facials of Edge as Orton hit the rko on him and how he was twisting in agony. Thats selling. The promos,matches and even the freaking entrances are too chorepgraphed. Austin might have put his fists up on the apron everytime he walked into the ring 20 years ago but it looked real. When Finn Balor starts throwing his arms in the air and you see the crowd do it with him as the lights dim it looks cringey as hell but I bet Vince is thinking about how badass that is.
The wrestlers who get into it today are fans who grew up obsessed with wrestling, especially from a modern era. They're tape-traders with decent diets and gymnastics training. Your bigger super-athlete types get into sports.
 
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