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50 years of world building to who? It is only 9 movies for casuals who only watches the movies. Maybe 10 or 11 if one counts the non-main franchise movies. Also how can you say Last Jedi provided no narrative advancement after quoting what I posted on what that movie introduced? You could argue they did a poor job of addressing the first movie, but you can't say they didn't close the narrative threads or provide new ones. It was Rise that completely ignored the narrative thread from the Last Jedi that made the whole trilogy a mess.
Why didn't the rebels just shoot an unmanned ship at the death star at light speed?

Or do casuals not know what the Death Star is??
 

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Why didn't the rebels just shoot an unmanned ship at the death star at light speed?

Or do casuals not know what the Death Star is??
Because nobody thought of that before? Like did anyone thought of using commercial airlines missiles before 9/11?

Casuals like me don't care about fake physics in fake space fights enough to consider that a major flaw that tryhards want it to be.
 

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Like did anyone thought of using commercial airlines missiles before 9/11?
Seriously?

Yes they have.

Planes have been hijacked with the intention of using them as projectiles numerous times. Someone tried to crash a plane into the White House, someone tried to crash a plane into the Eiffel Tower, someone tried to crash a plane into the Palácio do Planalto. Perhaps you've even heard of Kamikazes.

Air travel on this planet has been around for a century and change. Space travel in the Star Wars universe has been around a thousand years.

"No one thought of it" :ROFLMAO:

But okay. Fine, no one thought of it, how is there going to be a space battle, or any battle, in Star Wars ever again? From now on you can just put a ship on autopilot and call it a day.
 

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Seriously?

Yes they have.

Planes have been hijacked with the intention of using them as projectiles numerous times. Someone tried to crash a plane into the White House, someone tried to crash a plane into the Eiffel Tower, someone tried to crash a plane into the Palácio do Planalto. Perhaps you've even heard of Kamikazes.

Air travel on this planet has been around for a century and change. Space travel in the Star Wars universe has been around a thousand years.

"No one thought of it" :ROFLMAO:

But okay. Fine, no one thought of it, how is there going to be a space battle, or any battle, in Star Wars ever again? From now on you can just put a ship on autopilot and call it a day.
Cool. People thought of using commercial airlines as missiles but didn't execute it well enough until 9/11. There you go, a new explanation for a non-issue.

We have unmanned drones, so there is no more requirement of troops on the ground. That's you.
 

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Who on what planet have people said the prequels are anything but stinky horsehit? I need names and addresses so I can send letter bombs. I've only heard a slight minority saying the 3rd one is ok but it might be the best of an awful bunch.

I grew up with the originals and loved them all, just apart from the teddy bears on Endor. Take them out of it and that might've been the best one of the three.

Loved the Force Awakens, told a great story and it was smart in making it a tribute/copy of New Hope. The dichotomy of Rey being this 'rookie' being stronger in the force than Kylo, the highly trained Sith Lord, was brilliant. Had a great sense of humor too.

The next one ruined everything and god himself couldn't have saved the trilogy from then on.
I happen to like the prequels! Of the first 6 episodes, A New Hope is my least favorite. It's just boring, plus I've seen it too many times to ever watch it again.

Those 3 new ones were fucking horrendous though.
 

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Cool. People thought of using commercial airlines as missiles but didn't execute it well enough until 9/11. There you go, a new explanation for a non-issue.

We have unmanned drones, so there is no more requirement of troops on the ground. That's you.
Ah moving the goal posts I see.

Your analogy does nothing to explain why a large scale space battle would ever happen in the Star Wars universe ever again.

If ever a ship or fleet are presented in a menacing manner in the Star Wars universe casuals and nerds alike will inevitably be saying "why not just fly a ship into it at warp speed?"

If the Millennium Falcon can come and go at will, why not ferry people of the Rebellion ship instead of going on a side quest?
 

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Ah moving the goal posts I see.

Your analogy does nothing to explain why a large scale space battle would ever happen in the Star Wars universe ever again.

If ever a ship or fleet are presented in a menacing manner in the Star Wars universe casuals and nerds alike will inevitably be saying "why not just fly a ship into it at warp speed?"

If the Millennium Falcon can come and go at will, why not ferry people of the Rebellion ship instead of going on a side quest?
I didn't move the goalpost. My analogy was flawed, and we came up with a better analogy from our discussion.

I mean they could just easily write they created shields to counter such a tactic. So the warpspeed method can only work on certain fleets.

Fuel would be a reason. Also being able to navigate the same route multiple times might not be safe.

I like you bring up moving goalpost because you didn't even acknowledge my post about the Last Jedi closing narrative threads and introducing new ones which was your original complaint. Instead bringing up the ship crashing as some sort of gotcha.
 

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I didn't move the goalpost. My analogy was flawed, and we came up with a better analogy from our discussion.

I mean they could just easily write they created shields to counter such a tactic. So the warpspeed method can only work on certain fleets.

Fuel would be a reason. Also being able to navigate the same route multiple times might not be safe.

I like you bring up moving goalpost because you didn't even acknowledge my post about the Last Jedi closing narrative threads and introducing new ones which was your original complaint. Instead bringing up the ship crashing as some sort of gotcha.
What new narrative threads exactly?
 

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What new narrative threads exactly?
Kylo Ren is the new Supreme leader. The resistance has a new symbol for hope in Rey that is actually present after Luke who was a recluse all these years. Rey went from obsessing over her lineage to accepting it doesn't really matter. Force users are not limited to either be Jedis or Sith in the main franchise. And the battle between force users is not depicted as pure good vs evil.
 

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Kylo Ren is the new Supreme leader. The resistance has a new symbol for hope in Rey that is actually present after Luke who was a recluse all these years. Rey went from obsessing over her lineage to accepting it doesn't really matter. Force users are not limited to either be Jedis or Sith in the main franchise. And the battle between force users is not depicted as pure good vs evil.
  • The first one, fine that's technically a new thread. But it's a lesser and far less original thread than the original thread of Ren and Hux as equal rivals. It also eliminates the "Big Bad" of the series as Ren has already been beaten. Instead of seeing an escalating evil to triumph over Ren simply and easily gets beaten over and over again.
  • Rey was already a symbol of hope, that happened in the first movie.
  • Rey already stopped obsessing over her lineage, that happened in the first movie.
  • The First Order weren't Sith, that was established in the first movie.
  • Star Wars has always had shades of grey in it. It's literally shown in the clothes Luke wears.
- Luke Fucking Skywalker wouldn't abandon his family. It's his core fucking characteristic. And throwing it out the window to be "subversive" or to "try something new" isn't innovative or brave it's bad writing.



(for those that have the time)
 

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  • The first one, fine that's technically a new thread. But it's a lesser and far less original thread than the original thread of Ren and Hux as equal rivals. It also eliminates the "Big Bad" of the series as Ren has already been beaten. Instead of seeing an escalating evil to triumph over Ren simply and easily gets beaten over and over again.
  • When was Hux and Ren equal rivals? You lament less originality about Kylo Ren being the new leader, yet is complaining about the story being far more original in not following the 'Big Bad' path?

  • Rey was already a symbol of hope, that happened in the first movie.
    She was a stand-in for Luke in the first movie. The first movie ended with the resistance still pinning their hope on the search for Luke to turn the tide of the war. In the 2nd movie it was established Rey would take up the mantle.

  • Rey already stopped obsessing over her lineage, that happened in the first movie.
    It has been a while but I remember her past was holding her back during her training. But I definitely remember Kylo Ren dropping her parentage on her being a big deal for the character still.

  • The First Order weren't Sith, that was established in the first movie.
    I must have missed that part of the first movie. First Order not being Sith doesn't say anything since I don't think the Empire was considered Sith. My point is they still limited force users to a few main characters in the first movie who fit neatly into the Sith and Jedi categories. In the 2nd movie we got to see Leia, those red guards and random kids that weren't in either the Sith or the Jedis using force powers.

  • Star Wars has always had shades of grey in it. It's literally shown in the clothes Luke wears.
    What is even this point being made? Does this even warrant a reply? Star Wars was always portrayed as good versus evil. In Last Jedi they introduced war profiterring and how the good guys were part of it. I mean...wouldn't Han's character be a better example of shades of grey (who shot first?) than the clothes Luke wears? Why am I even bothering here with you who clearly is just clutching at straws to disprove your own strawman against the movie.
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Luke Fucking Skywalker wouldn't abandon his family. It's his core fucking characteristic. And throwing it out the window to be "subversive" or to "try something new" isn't innovative or brave it's bad writing.
Hey the movie introduced a new narrative thread about the character here. You can hate it all you want but it is something new narratively. Thanks for helping to add more to the list. For me, Luke was always rash and impulsive and doing what he felt was the right thing to do. After he felt responsible for turning Ben to the dark side he might have felt the right thing to do was to exile himself. That's not out of character.
 

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  • When was Hux and Ren equal rivals? You lament less originality about Kylo Ren being the new leader, yet is complaining about the story being far more original in not following the 'Big Bad' path?

  • She was a stand-in for Luke in the first movie. The first movie ended with the resistance still pinning their hope on the search for Luke to turn the tide of the war. In the 2nd movie it was established Rey would take up the mantle.

  • It has been a while but I remember her past was holding her back during her training. But I definitely remember Kylo Ren dropping her parentage on her being a big deal for the character still.

  • I must have missed that part of the first movie. First Order not being Sith doesn't say anything since I don't think the Empire was considered Sith. My point is they still limited force users to a few main characters in the first movie who fit neatly into the Sith and Jedi categories. In the 2nd movie we got to see Leia, those red guards and random kids that weren't in either the Sith or the Jedis using force powers.

  • What is even this point being made? Does this even warrant a reply? Star Wars was always portrayed as good versus evil. In Last Jedi they introduced war profiterring and how the good guys were part of it. I mean...wouldn't Han's character be a better example of shades of grey (who shot first?) than the clothes Luke wears? Why am I even bothering here with you who clearly is just clutching at straws to disprove your own strawman against the movie.
-Hey the movie introduced a new narrative thread about the character here. You can hate it all you want but it is something new narratively. Thanks for helping to add more to the list. For me, Luke was always rash and impulsive and doing what he felt was the right thing to do. After he felt responsible for turning Ben to the dark side he might have felt the right thing to do was to exile himself. That's not out of character.
- Ren are Hux are clearly shown as rivals and equals in the first one, vying for both power and the approval of Snoke. The line of thinking was we would see more of this relationship as well as its roots, but we didn't because Hux was turned into a bumbling fool and the narrative line cut off by Rian.

- Rey, Poe, and Finn destroyed the Star Killer Base. You claim Rey is a stand in for Luke but then say she wasn't a new source of hope to the resistance?

- The whole third act of the Force Awakens is her putting her old family ties behind her and replacing that need with the resistance. It starts in the cantina with the yellow lady, culminates with Hans death, and ends with her commitment to the Rebellion. Going back to the well on Rey's family was a retread because although the narrative had moved on, probably by original design, the viewers remained focused on it, driving Rian, who is an instigator to peddling back and making it an issue again.

- Having limited Force Users in the original trilogy makes narrative sense, having Force Users quickly indoctrinated into Jedi or Sith orders in the prequels also makes sense. It doesn't negate that there are plenty of grey characters in Star Wars. Force Users and Non-Force Users alike. I'm not going to get too hung up on this one because I agree with the fall of both the Jedi and the Sith multiple Force-Using factions emerging and fighting for dominance is a good idea, but that is not what happened in the new trilogy. Also grey characters for the sake of grey characters do not good characters make. General Hodo is a grey character and she's a terrible character. The war profiteers are not good characters, they're not even characters, they're a poorly executed theme.

- The use of aesthetic to express characterization and theme is a straw argument? Nearly every professional director would disagree with you.

- A new narrative for the sake of a new narrative is stupid and in this case unearned and nonsensical. As a writer you have to work to place your pieces where you want them. "He felt bad for turning Ben to the darkside" How did this happen? Why did this happen? Why was nothing done to stop it? Why was nothing done afterward? Rian Johnson wanted old burnt out Luke, that's fine, I actually don't mind the idea as I like the gimmick of the old hero at the end of his rope. But those gimmicks need to be earned. Taking an iconic hero like Luke Fucking Skywalker, a man who never gave up on his family, his friends, or the galaxy and saying "he's an old prick now, enjoy" with no explanation or justification is not old poor writing it's hubris on the part of the writer.
 

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- Ren are Hux are clearly shown as rivals and equals in the first one, vying for both power and the approval of Snoke. The line of thinking was we would see more of this relationship as well as its roots, but we didn't because Hux was turned into a bumbling fool and the narrative line cut off by Rian.
Were we watching the same first movie? Kylo never regarded Hux as his equal. HIs deference was out of fear/respect of Snoke. We would have an impulsive new brash leader for the dark side, which would be something different. Basically what it would be if Vader became Emperor in the original trilogy. Instead of lawful evil, we get to see chaotic evil as the final boss which is something new for the main franchise. So why is Kylo Ren being supreme leader lesser and far less original than showing an equal relationship between Kylo and a side character like Hux while rethreading the vanquishing the Big Bad to save the day?

- Rey, Poe, and Finn destroyed the Star Killer Base. You claim Rey is a stand in for Luke but then say she wasn't a new source of hope to the resistance?
I already explained why. The resistance still believe Luke as their trump card. Force awaken planted the seeds, The Last Jedi established Rey as taking over the mantle.

- The whole third act of the Force Awakens is her putting her old family ties behind her and replacing that need with the resistance. It starts in the cantina with the yellow lady, culminates with Hans death, and ends with her commitment to the Rebellion. Going back to the well on Rey's family was a retread because although the narrative had moved on, probably by original design, the viewers remained focused on it, driving Rian, who is an instigator to peddling back and making it an issue again.
Force awaken showed her physically let go by leaving her home planet. Last Jedi showed even though she was willing to leave, she was still stuck emotionally and how she finally was able to let it go. Not that hard to grasp. It isn't rethread but furthering her narrative path.

- Having limited Force Users in the original trilogy makes narrative sense, having Force Users quickly indoctrinated into Jedi or Sith orders in the prequels also makes sense. It doesn't negate that there are plenty of grey characters in Star Wars. Force Users and Non-Force Users alike. I'm not going to get too hung up on this one because I agree with the fall of both the Jedi and the Sith multiple Force-Using factions emerging and fighting for dominance is a good idea, but that is not what happened in the new trilogy. Also grey characters for the sake of grey characters do not good characters make. General Hodo is a grey character and she's a terrible character. The war profiteers are not good characters, they're not even characters, they're a poorly executed theme.
And is it the Last Jedi's fault that force-using factions were not explored in the sequel? The original complaint by you is there was no new narrative threads. I listed some, you added a few more from our discussion. Admit you were strawmanning there were no new narrative advancement because you hated the movie and we can just end the discussion. Once again, your main complain here was there was nothing new, not whether the something new was good or bad.

- The use of aesthetic to express characterization and theme is a straw argument? Nearly every professional director would disagree with you.
When you use Luke's clothes to rebut against a point of force users being clearly defined as good and bad, then yes it is a strawman.

- A new narrative for the sake of a new narrative is stupid and in this case unearned and nonsensical. As a writer you have to work to place your pieces where you want them. "He felt bad for turning Ben to the darkside" How did this happen? Why did this happen? Why was nothing done to stop it? Why was nothing done afterward? Rian Johnson wanted old burnt out Luke, that's fine, I actually don't mind the idea as I like the gimmick of the old hero at the end of his rope. But those gimmicks need to be earned. Taking an iconic hero like Luke Fucking Skywalker, a man who never gave up on his family, his friends, or the galaxy and saying "he's an old prick now, enjoy" with no explanation or justification is not old poor writing it's hubris on the part of the writer.
Once again with the strawman. The movie explained why. Even showed the scene of his one moment of weakness. He saw darkness within Ben and feared for the future, Ben feared for his life and turned to the dark side. Luke ashamed of his moment of weakness exiled himself. It if fine to not like it or reject it. But saying there was no explanation or justification is just pure strawmaning.
 

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Were we watching the same first movie? Kylo never regarded Hux as his equal. HIs deference was out of fear/respect of Snoke. We would have an impulsive new brash leader for the dark side, which would be something different. Basically what it would be if Vader became Emperor in the original trilogy. Instead of lawful evil, we get to see chaotic evil as the final boss which is something new for the main franchise. So why is Kylo Ren being supreme leader lesser and far less original than showing an equal relationship between Kylo and a side character like Hux while rethreading the vanquishing the Big Bad to save the day?

I already explained why. The resistance still believe Luke as their trump card. Force awaken planted the seeds, The Last Jedi established Rey as taking over the mantle.

Force awaken showed her physically let go by leaving her home planet. Last Jedi showed even though she was willing to leave, she was still stuck emotionally and how she finally was able to let it go. Not that hard to grasp. It isn't rethread but furthering her narrative path.


And is it the Last Jedi's fault that force-using factions were not explored in the sequel? The original complaint by you is there was no new narrative threads. I listed some, you added a few more from our discussion. Admit you were strawmanning there were no new narrative advancement because you hated the movie and we can just end the discussion. Once again, your main complain here was there was nothing new, not whether the something new was good or bad.

When you use Luke's clothes to rebut against a point of force users being clearly defined as good and bad, then yes it is a strawman.

Once again with the strawman. The movie explained why. Even showed the scene of his one moment of weakness. He saw darkness within Ben and feared for the future, Ben feared for his life and turned to the dark side. Luke ashamed of his moment of weakness exiled himself. It if fine to not like it or reject it. But saying there was no explanation or justification is just pure strawmaning.
Of course Ren never viewed Hux as his equal, but they were still equals in power and influence across the first order. To equate it to American military ranks, they were both Major Generals. Ren wasn't Hux's superior, they were on equal footing, again, both vying for power and approval from Snoke. Hux was not a side character in The Force Awakens, he was a supporting character, but not a side character, trivial as it may sound to you, they are not the same thing, and the differences are actually very important in the writing of a story.

Of course Luke was the wringer, they were trying to set up a glorious return for Luke, they "swerved" us and made him a beat up, old, curmudgeon, which is in part JJs fault, but I digress, Rey, Finn, and Poe were still the heroes of the resistance.

The planet is the physical link to her family, by letting the planet go, she is letting her family go too. It's made clear in both dialogue and action she lets her family go in Force Awakens. "They are not coming back", Rey cries, she moves on. The whole point of the third act in Force Awakens is she finds a new family and purpose. Her origins can still be a thread in a sequel, but the notion that it still consumes her doesn't adhere to the events of Force Awakens.

Kylo Ren being the bad guy is not a new thread. There were threads laid out in Force Awakens. Ruin chopped them all off at the knees in favor of nothing. Ren is the tip of the First Order glacier, nope it's just Ren.

If you can't tell that Luke's clothing is a representation of his inner turmoil and struggle with the light side vs. the dark side I really can't help you. There's a reason the first thing Luke does when in appearing in person in Return of the Jedi is the Force Choke.

Luke's action does not explain why he, a man who never gave up on anything, would abandon his family along with the Universe he spent his like protecting. "whelp I made a mistake and have to leave the galaxy to be taken over by the Not-Empire, see ya" yeah, that's not Luke Skywalker. How did this happen? What happened after? One two minute flashback does not explain, justify, or validate a Luke Skywalker "heel turn".

The side quest and General Gender Studies plot I wont even get into because it was complete and utter shite. But Luke training Rey actually had some potential, all of which was squandered by shitty, half assed, writing in desperate need of a Star Wars Lore expert as well as a script doctor. You can like it, that's fine, but take it from someone who has actually studied writing when I say, broken down and examined Last Jedi is OBJECTIVELY BAD writing. To the point now where it is being used in teaching as an example of how not to write a story.

Try looking beneath the surface of what Rian wrote, Last Jedi falls apart.
 

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Of course Ren never viewed Hux as his equal, but they were still equals in power and influence across the first order. To equate it to American military ranks, they were both Major Generals. Ren wasn't Hux's superior, they were on equal footing, again, both vying for power and approval from Snoke. Hux was not a side character in The Force Awakens, he was a supporting character, but not a side character, trivial as it may sound to you, they are not the same thing, and the differences are actually very important in the writing of a story.
Do you consider Tarkin and Vader to be equals? Because that is what Hux and Ren are copies of in the new trilogy. Their sphere of influence is on totally different areas and valued by the Emperor differently. But Vader was always the right hand man of the Emperor. This is almost copied entirely for the Force Awakens too.

Hux adds little depth to the overall story and has just about the same amount of screen time as Maz Kanata who is a side character. Replace him with any other general type character and the story doesn't miss a beat.

Of course Luke was the wringer, they were trying to set up a glorious return for Luke, they "swerved" us and made him a beat up, old, curmudgeon, which is in part JJs fault, but I digress, Rey, Finn, and Poe were still the heroes of the resistance.
Now you are projecting what you want Luke to be instead of what they were trying to set up. It was obvious they were setting up Luke to be the Yoda of the new trilogy to train the new main character in Rey of the ways of the force. None of this glorious return stuff. Yes the new characters are the heroes of their trilogy no kidding. The 2nd movie was to show us the new heroes are ready to take over from the previous generation instead of always deferring to the previous generation.

The planet is the physical link to her family, by letting the planet go, she is letting her family go too. It's made clear in both dialogue and action she lets her family go in Force Awakens. "They are not coming back", Rey cries, she moves on. The whole point of the third act in Force Awakens is she finds a new family and purpose. Her origins can still be a thread in a sequel, but the notion that it still consumes her doesn't adhere to the events of Force Awakens.
You are repeating what I said. She let go of them not coming back to her home planet (physical representation) but not the idea of reuniting with them again (emotional) until the 2nd movie.

Kylo Ren being the bad guy is not a new thread. There were threads laid out in Force Awakens. Ruin chopped them all off at the knees in favor of nothing. Ren is the tip of the First Order glacier, nope it's just Ren.
The threads in the the Force Awaken was Snoke being the big bad. You literally was complaining about killing of the big bad in a previous post. Like I said, and something you ignored, this is a chaotic evil instead of the lawful evil we have always seen in the franchise.

If you can't tell that Luke's clothing is a representation of his inner turmoil and struggle with the light side vs. the dark side I really can't help you. There's a reason the first thing Luke does when in appearing in person in Return of the Jedi is the Force Choke.
Inner turmoil and struggle of the good guy character is not the shades of grey I was referring to. The shades of grey is the belief there is nothing wrong with doing the bad things for the 'greater good' by the good guys. Hans would have been a better rebuttal for your position but you blew it.

Luke's action does not explain why he, a man who never gave up on anything, would abandon his family along with the Universe he spent his like protecting. "whelp I made a mistake and have to leave the galaxy to be taken over by the Not-Empire, see ya" yeah, that's not Luke Skywalker. How did this happen? What happened after? One two minute flashback does not explain, justify, or validate a Luke Skywalker "heel turn".
Are you saying Yoda is someone who would gave up on everything when he self-exiled too? But it isn't just a two minute flashback, there was also his dialogue with Rey and Yoda. His guilt and fear of his own powers made him question the way of the Jedi. You went from there was no explanation, to there was not enough explanation. Way to move the goalposts.

The side quest and General Gender Studies plot I wont even get into because it was complete and utter shite. But Luke training Rey actually had some potential, all of which was squandered by shitty, half assed, writing in desperate need of a Star Wars Lore expert as well as a script doctor. You can like it, that's fine, but take it from someone who has actually studied writing when I say, broken down and examined Last Jedi is OBJECTIVELY BAD writing. To the point now where it is being used in teaching as an example of how not to write a story.

Try looking beneath the surface of what Rian wrote, Last Jedi falls apart.
This has nothing to do with your position that there is no new narrative threads in the Last Jedi. How have you studied writing and still be using the wrong criticism about the movie? If you look beneath the surface, the original trilogy is also open to many criticisms and be used as an example of how not to write a story too.
 

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Do you consider Tarkin and Vader to be equals? Because that is what Hux and Ren are copies of in the new trilogy. Their sphere of influence is on totally different areas and valued by the Emperor differently. But Vader was always the right hand man of the Emperor. This is almost copied entirely for the Force Awakens too.

Hux adds little depth to the overall story and has just about the same amount of screen time as Maz Kanata who is a side character. Replace him with any other general type character and the story doesn't miss a beat.

Now you are projecting what you want Luke to be instead of what they were trying to set up. It was obvious they were setting up Luke to be the Yoda of the new trilogy to train the new main character in Rey of the ways of the force. None of this glorious return stuff. Yes the new characters are the heroes of their trilogy no kidding. The 2nd movie was to show us the new heroes are ready to take over from the previous generation instead of always deferring to the previous generation.

You are repeating what I said. She let go of them not coming back to her home planet (physical representation) but not the idea of reuniting with them again (emotional) until the 2nd movie.

The threads in the the Force Awaken was Snoke being the big bad. You literally was complaining about killing of the big bad in a previous post. Like I said, and something you ignored, this is a chaotic evil instead of the lawful evil we have always seen in the franchise.

Inner turmoil and struggle of the good guy character is not the shades of grey I was referring to. The shades of grey is the belief there is nothing wrong with doing the bad things for the 'greater good' by the good guys. Hans would have been a better rebuttal for your position but you blew it.

Are you saying Yoda is someone who would gave up on everything when he self-exiled too? But it isn't just a two minute flashback, there was also his dialogue with Rey and Yoda. His guilt and fear of his own powers made him question the way of the Jedi. You went from there was no explanation, to there was not enough explanation. Way to move the goalposts.

This has nothing to do with your position that there is no new narrative threads in the Last Jedi. How have you studied writing and still be using the wrong criticism about the movie? If you look beneath the surface, the original trilogy is also open to many criticisms and be used as an example of how not to write a story too.
Tarkin is absolutely equal to Vader in Universe, he is in charge of the Imperial Army. Tarkin doesn't hold the same pop culture status as Vader, obviously. But it doesn't change that in Universe Tarkin and Vader would have been equals. The differences Vader and Tarkin weren't rivals. They had their roles cemented. Hux and Ren were still, clearly, vying for favoritism from Snoke and being groomed in their positions.

The Force Awakens is 60 percent exposition, of course Hux had minimal screentime, it doesn't change the relationships shown in the movie.

You're acting as though the third act of Force Awakens didn't happen. She was over her parents. Her lineage can still be a thread in the films, but the whole point of Force Awakens third act is... I'm just repeating myself, SHE WAS OVER HER PARENTS, clearly.

How is Ren chaotic evil? Because he makes stupid decisions despite being shown to be an intelligent person? Ren wants to see the Rebellion destroyed but instead of doing so he chases the Millennium Falcon, so he's chaotic? Ren isn't chaotic evil, he's a character who's intelligence is eliminated when Rian has to force a way into the set pieces he wanted. Again, objectively BAD writing.

Saying "this guy from the OT is a better example of a grey character" is confirmation that there have been grey characters before the new trilogy.

Luke's heel turn is still not explained. What did he do after, just give up for the first time in his life? Where was Snoke in all this, why wasn't something done to stop him before, why wasn't something done to stop him immediately afterwards? Where were Han and Leia? Where was Yoda's ghost when Luke fell if one conversation from him could have brought Luke back? Where was Anakin's ghost when his grandson was being manipulated, if he was since we know nothing about why Ren turned to the darkside? From what we've seen EVERY Jedi faces temptation from the Darkside, to the point where it can be interpreted as a right of passage, why was Ren facing temptation such a shock?

No one has said the original trilogy was free of faults, but it did have consistent characters with motivations and actions that made sense, as well as a story that escalated in excitement. Last Jedi has so many plot holes, gaps in logic, continuity issues, and examples of poor writing it would take longer than the actual movie to name them all. Poe the heroic pilot from the Force Awakens is made to be the fool, for nothing. Luke's exile led to nothing but his humiliation. Ren completing his training led to nothing. Snoke's identity led to nothing. The Cantina lady having Luke's lightsaber was completely dropped because Rian couldn't even think of something. Even Rey's lineage which shouldn't have been her driving force because again she was over it, led to nothing. I'm paraphrasing another critique when I say "don't you love plot twists that make the story less interesting". But hey Ren, the guy easily defeated by Rey in the first movie and the second movie is now the main bad guy, how exciting.


Try watching it with an open mind
 

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Tarkin is absolutely equal to Vader in Universe, he is in charge of the Imperial Army. Tarkin doesn't hold the same pop culture status as Vader, obviously. But it doesn't change that in Universe Tarkin and Vader would have been equals. The differences Vader and Tarkin weren't rivals. They had their roles cemented. Hux and Ren were still, clearly, vying for favoritism from Snoke and being groomed in their positions.

The Force Awakens is 60 percent exposition, of course Hux had minimal screentime, it doesn't change the relationships shown in the movie.

You're acting as though the third act of Force Awakens didn't happen. She was over her parents. Her lineage can still be a thread in the films, but the whole point of Force Awakens third act is... I'm just repeating myself, SHE WAS OVER HER PARENTS, clearly.

How is Ren chaotic evil? Because he makes stupid decisions despite being shown to be an intelligent person? Ren wants to see the Rebellion destroyed but instead of doing so he chases the Millennium Falcon, so he's chaotic? Ren isn't chaotic evil, he's a character who's intelligence is eliminated when Rian has to force a way into the set pieces he wanted. Again, objectively BAD writing.

Saying "this guy from the OT is a better example of a grey character" is confirmation that there have been grey characters before the new trilogy.

Luke's heel turn is still not explained. What did he do after, just give up for the first time in his life? Where was Snoke in all this, why wasn't something done to stop him before, why wasn't something done to stop him immediately afterwards? Where were Han and Leia? Where was Yoda's ghost when Luke fell if one conversation from him could have brought Luke back? Where was Anakin's ghost when his grandson was being manipulated, if he was since we know nothing about why Ren turned to the darkside? From what we've seen EVERY Jedi faces temptation from the Darkside, to the point where it can be interpreted as a right of passage, why was Ren facing temptation such a shock?

No one has said the original trilogy was free of faults, but it did have consistent characters with motivations and actions that made sense, as well as a story that escalated in excitement. Last Jedi has so many plot holes, gaps in logic, continuity issues, and examples of poor writing it would take longer than the actual movie to name them all. Poe the heroic pilot from the Force Awakens is made to be the fool, for nothing. Luke's exile led to nothing but his humiliation. Ren completing his training led to nothing. Snoke's identity led to nothing. The Cantina lady having Luke's lightsaber was completely dropped because Rian couldn't even think of something. Even Rey's lineage which shouldn't have been her driving force because again she was over it, led to nothing. I'm paraphrasing another critique when I say "don't you love plot twists that make the story less interesting". But hey Ren, the guy easily defeated by Rey in the first movie and the second movie is now the main bad guy, how exciting.


Try watching it with an open mind
We are going in circles here. Vader and Tarkin were definitely not equals in that Vader was only answerable to the Emperor. He only obeyed orders from Tarkin because of the Emperor. Very similar relationship to Kylo and Hux. They are "equals" but the Emperor/ Snoke clearly gives the force user closer to them.

Yet in the act you are using as rebuttal they hinted at Hans and Leia being her surrogate parents. She still yearn for her parents and clearly not over it until she confronted it head on in the Last Jedi during her training and when Kylo told her the 'truth' after their battle at Snoke's.

Ren is chaotic evil in that he has no respect for the rules and only pursue whatever he desires without thinking of the consequences for the First Order. Like taking Rey instead of BB8 in the force awaken because he was more interested in Rey and doing the bare minimum to accomplish his mission. Or killing Snoke because he was no longer satisfied with his teachings. Chasing after the Falcon in that battle wasn't a stupid decision since that was the resistance only air support. They still managed to cornered the resistance.

My original point was saying force users being shown with shades of grey. I simply raised Hans as a better example of showing shades of grey than using Luke's clothing.

Didn't they imply or showed a scene where Luke told Han and Leia what happened and then disappeared? He lived in exiled after and yes he gave up. Why do you keep repeating these questions when the simple direct answers are given in the movie? Was the origin of the emperor important in the original trilogy? If not then why is there such an importance to Snoke and how he turned Kylo here? Where was Yoda when the Empire ruled the galaxy all those years? Is Yoda not a more important figure of the Jedi than Luke? It wasn't just temptation but seeing the seeds have already been planted in Ben and the future it entails. Luke's moment of weakness after seeing that vision resulted in Ben finally fully turning and going apeshit at the Jedi temple. The guilt of being pawns of the dark side haunted Luke just like how the same guilt haunted Obi wan and Yoda in the original trilogy until the new generation gave them hope to finally return to the fight.

You are talking about consistent characters and motivation in the original trilogy where Luke and Leia were suddenly made siblings after the first movie? Or that the emperor was suddenly are more important character? You complain about lack of originality, then lack of narrative threads, but when they tried something new, you complain it was bad or not interesting. Why not just simply state you think it was bad, and admit the complaints about the lack of originality and lack of narrative threads are just add-ons so it doesn't appear as it is all just a big whine?

I am not watching 80+minutes of a video that you can't present its points in here to me lol.
 

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We are going in circles here. Vader and Tarkin were definitely not equals in that Vader was only answerable to the Emperor. He only obeyed orders from Tarkin because of the Emperor. Very similar relationship to Kylo and Hux. They are "equals" but the Emperor/ Snoke clearly gives the force user closer to them.

Yet in the act you are using as rebuttal they hinted at Hans and Leia being her surrogate parents. She still yearn for her parents and clearly not over it until she confronted it head on in the Last Jedi during her training and when Kylo told her the 'truth' after their battle at Snoke's.

Ren is chaotic evil in that he has no respect for the rules and only pursue whatever he desires without thinking of the consequences for the First Order. Like taking Rey instead of BB8 in the force awaken because he was more interested in Rey and doing the bare minimum to accomplish his mission. Or killing Snoke because he was no longer satisfied with his teachings. Chasing after the Falcon in that battle wasn't a stupid decision since that was the resistance only air support. They still managed to cornered the resistance.

My original point was saying force users being shown with shades of grey. I simply raised Hans as a better example of showing shades of grey than using Luke's clothing.

Didn't they imply or showed a scene where Luke told Han and Leia what happened and then disappeared? He lived in exiled after and yes he gave up. Why do you keep repeating these questions when the simple direct answers are given in the movie? Was the origin of the emperor important in the original trilogy? If not then why is there such an importance to Snoke and how he turned Kylo here? Where was Yoda when the Empire ruled the galaxy all those years? Is Yoda not a more important figure of the Jedi than Luke? It wasn't just temptation but seeing the seeds have already been planted in Ben and the future it entails. Luke's moment of weakness after seeing that vision resulted in Ben finally fully turning and going apeshit at the Jedi temple. The guilt of being pawns of the dark side haunted Luke just like how the same guilt haunted Obi wan and Yoda in the original trilogy until the new generation gave them hope to finally return to the fight.

You are talking about consistent characters and motivation in the original trilogy where Luke and Leia were suddenly made siblings after the first movie? Or that the emperor was suddenly are more important character? You complain about lack of originality, then lack of narrative threads, but when they tried something new, you complain it was bad or not interesting. Why not just simply state you think it was bad, and admit the complaints about the lack of originality and lack of narrative threads are just add-ons so it doesn't appear as it is all just a big whine?

I am not watching 80+minutes of a video that you can't present its points in here to me lol.
This is boring. Yes, I hated the movie, part of the reason I hated the movie is not one single element of its story, from the bombers to the attack on Crete, holds up when put under a critical lens.

Watch the video. The movie is an objective narrative dumpster fire.
 
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