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most of the guys from the 70s to the 90s, especially NWA guys, were guys that you could be breaking a pool cue across somebody in a bar fight. hell, scott hall killed a guy. it made their promos (that weren't written by failed soap opera and sitcom writers) feel real, ie austin, sandman, or magnum ta would really punch a guy in the face.

Where did this myth come from that 80's wrestlers were all badasses who looked like they'd destroy you? A lot of them just look kinda chubby tbh lol.









I think a lot of people look at the 80's through rose tinted glasses tbh, I was there. The reason guys like Warrior and Hogan stood out so much for me back then was a lot of other wrestlers seemed like someone's Dad or Uncle in comparison. A large number of those wrestlers were big, yes, but they weren't huge scary intimidating dudes, they were more like heavyset regular dudes in their underwear lol.
those are the exact type of guys who look like they work in a body shop who'd smash a beer bottle across your forehead then leave on their old harley before the cops showed up.
 

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those are the exact type of guys who look like they work in a body shop who'd smash a beer bottle across your forehead then leave on their old harley before the cops showed up.
You think? Not me. I hang around with bikers actually, they'd eat these guys for breakfast. I honestly don't see how anyone could find those guys I posted intimidating, especially in the outfits they wore. As I say, at the time I was never particularly intimidated by any of those sorts of dudes, they just looked like people I'd expect to be destroyed by Hogan, Warrior, Rude and the other dudes who were actually huge or cut. These dudes look more like the regular overweight dudes I see in the pub all the time lol.
 

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WWE is at a point now where no matter what they try to do at the top of the card, it's going to meet resistance from a toxic and spiteful fanbase. In a situation like that, there can be no stars. And it's not as simple as saying WWE should push who 'we' want because the truth is, nobody knows what they fucking want and it changes from week to week. As soon as a guy gets backing from the company they are turned on. If a guy get backing from the company straight out of the blocks they are turned on. If a guy is an 'indy' guy he's more than likely being pushed for his ring work rather than his mic or character work...which will eventually both be shat on and they are turned on.

WWE won't ever make another star if this aggressive pushing of guys on their end and pushing back on the fans end continues. That's not even talking about the myriad of other issues but at its core, this is the biggest battle imo. The fanbase right now is entitled and petty. Ain't nobody getting over ever again if it continues.

And yeah, 90% of the guys today look like fucking geeks when compared with what wrestling stars used to be. That's a big part of the problem too.
I've been saying it for years but the WWE fans are the ultimate hipsters these days. They want to route for the #2 or #3 guy will hate the number 1 guy no matter what and this has been the case for at least the last 5 years (if not longer)

It's quite hilarious seeing guys starting to sour a bit on Owens and on the other end of the spectrum see Cena FINALLY get some more respect even though he dropped down the card years ago. The resistance from reigns has been even more hilarious considering virtually everyone wanted him to go far when he was exceeding expectations and was killing it in the Shield. Fans want to see their favourite get to the top but once they are there they move on to the next #2 guy who shows main event quality. A blessing in disguise for Bryan I guess as he never got to reach that stage.

Obviously WWEs booking doesn't help but yeah the fans these days are also a problem.
 

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I've been saying it for years but the WWE fans are the ultimate hipsters these days. They want to route for the #2 or #3 guy will hate the number 1 guy no matter what and this has been the case for at least the last 5 years (if not longer)

It's quite hilarious seeing guys starting to sour a bit on Owens and on the other end of the spectrum see Cena FINALLY get some more respect even though he dropped down the card years ago. The resistance from reigns has been even more hilarious considering virtually everyone wanted him to go far when he was exceeding expectations and was killing it in the Shield. Fans want to see their favourite get to the top but once they are there they move on to the next #2 guy who shows main event quality. A blessing in disguise for Bryan I guess as he never got to reach that stage.

Obviously WWEs booking doesn't help but yeah the fans these days are also a problem.
Smarks want to be the show. They dont go to watch the show, they want to influence and be the show. It has killed the business. WWE have no catered to these people so hard that there is nothing left for the casual sports fans.

Look at all the champions...owens, rollins, balor, styles, ambrose. All indy wrestlers who work like indy wrestlers. Of those I would say styles is the only one I could see actually having some connection with the main stream. The rest are geeks.

The wwe is past redemption. NXT is full of more of these vanilla midgets who learnt in bingo halls and therefore thats all they can do, entertain bingo halls.

Smarks will never be happy either, thats the funny thing. They have what they want. Almost exactly what they want. WHich is a product full of 20 minute matches between "great workers" with basically no story. OMG ITS STEEN VS TYLER BLACK. And they still aren't fucking happy.

Being "over" doesnt mean a few smarks cheer for you. Even if you have 20k people going mad for you, well if all those people are smarks it means jackshit. Getting over with 20k smarks is NOT in anyway going to get you over with the casual sports fans who used to watch the wwe.
 

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This.

Honestly it's such a shame that there is this stigma surrounding not just wrestling but all forms of sports and entertainment that if you're in it to make money then your a bit of a sellout and money grabber. People love to forget that at the end of the day wrestling is a job for these guys and while yes you would want to watch people who love doing their job you have to understand that not everyone will but as long as they try who cares.

As for the actual question it's more down to booking than anything else. The WWE have a bunch of creative guys but they are limited in what they can do because Vince can't work out whether he wants wrestling to be presented as a real sport or as a soap drama.
People care about being passionate for wrestling because usually, people who don't care much about it always do what they are being told, and that rarely leads to getting into your own, which doesn't lead to being 100% behind your gimmick, which doesn't lead to you becoming a Star. Especially today, when all of the guys and girls just get a gimmick printed on to their foreheads.

A prime example would be Big Show, who should have been a big unstoppable motherfucker in the title picture, instead of what they did with him over the years because he was dying to suck WWE's dick. Still is apparently.
 

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No the smarks makes the stars..

John Cena thug gimmick passed on the smarks standards and boom got over..

Randy Orton Legend Killer and Viper gimmick got into smarks fantasy and boom got over despite being stale recently

CM Punks pipebomb gmmick got the approval of smarks and boom got over

New Day kiddy gimmick goes well on the taste of smarks and boom got over..

Agree or not the smarks will always be the gatekeeper of this business>:)
 

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People care about being passionate for wrestling because usually, people who don't care much about it always do what they are being told, and that rarely leads to getting into your own, which doesn't lead to being 100% behind your gimmick, which doesn't lead to you becoming a Star. Especially today, when all of the guys and girls just get a gimmick printed on to their foreheads.

A prime example would be Big Show, who should have been a big unstoppable motherfucker in the title picture, instead of what they did with him over the years because he was dying to suck WWE's dick. Still is apparently.
I'm only half agree with this statement. Having passion doesn't create stars, being good at your job mixed with the backing of higher ups create stars. You can have all the passion in the world but if the company just see you as a side piece you won't go anywhere.

Yes being passionate at least means you get behind your character and try a little harder but that doesn't lead you to become a star at all. The company is bursting with "passionate" superstars right now and yet you constantly see people mentioning how Lesnar is one of the only guys who looks the part and a lot of that is down to him just going out and doing what he does best...The same Brock Lesnar who has made it very clear for a very long time that he just doesn't have a passion for wrestling anymore and in particular the WWE. Yet he at least goes out and does what he's paid to do and does it well. :draper2

On the flip of that you have a guy like Cody Rhodes who had tons of passion and gave 100% in all the gimmick he was given and yet was never made into a star because the company just didn't want him to be one. simple as that.

I get the passion argument but I also hate it because end of the day wrestling is still a job and as long as people at least give it their all it doesn't really matter how passionate or not they are about it.
 

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Reading through the Goldberg threads and how most noted the huge charisma and aura boost he provided compared to the full-time roster. While you see a lot of blame on Vince for not booking well, not protecting the right people, ect., it's getting increasingly hard to believe that there is some huge superstar out there that the company just can't bring the goods out of for they can't get out of their own way.

I simply refuse to believe that it is 100% on the company when a 20-year block where we were introduced to truly towering personalities such Roddy Piper, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Randy Savage, Hall & Nash, Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin and The Rock (just to name a few) has been followed up by a 15-year block where we get...umm...uh...John Cena and CM Punk. Those two are the unquestioned standouts of magnetism that broke out post-Attitude Era and frankly even they don't pass muster when you stand them next to the stars of these previous generations.

Diagnose the symptoms for why it is all you like, but as simple as it sounds, genuinely entrancing people must have stopped looking at wrestling as something to shoot for because the faces coming out of development belong to honest-to-God geeks. Yes, the company does share in the blame as they've not put their talent in the best positions to succeed but even if they had, guys like Seth Rollins, Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn, etc. have a ceiling and it's not a level that is going to create new wrestling fans. That's what the "IT" factor is all about and the wrestling industry simply doesn't attract "IT" people like it used to. That's clear as crystal.
The only way we can find out if the problem is the wrestlers and not the management is to remove all of the many shackles the guys and girls have to work under. Scripted promos, having sitcom writers rather than bookers, Vince's micro management and all the other stuff would have to go, if after that no one gets over and becomes a star then perhaps it is the wrestlers.
 

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The only way we can find out if the problem is the wrestlers and not the management is to remove all of the many shackles the guys and girls have to work under. Scripted promos, having sitcom writers rather than bookers, Vince's micro management and all the other stuff would have to go, if after that no one gets over and becomes a star then perhaps it is the wrestlers.
It wouldn't matter dude. The current wrestlers are computer game geeks. The old school guys were just cool dudes who wrestled and thats why wrestling was amazing. Kevin Nash is just way cooler than any of the current batch
 

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It wouldn't matter dude. The current wrestlers are computer game geeks. The old school guys were just cool dudes who wrestled and thats why wrestling was amazing. Kevin Nash is just way cooler than any of the current batch
IDK it's impossible to know what would happen with the stars of the past, would be they be as big now or would they be ruined by one of Vince's terrible gimmicks ?

For example if they debuted today:

Hulk Hogan: His gimmick is he's an idiotic beach bum who's addicted to tanning salons, for his entrance he get's wheeled down the down the ramp in a sunbed. His finisher is called the spray tan.

Randy Savage: His gimmick is he's constantly constipated because of his strange voice and he has a terrible fear of bottles of laxatives just like Andre's fear of snakes back in the day.

Andre the Giant: Because of his French origins he comes to the ring in a beret and a striped sweater with garlic around his neck, Hornswoggle becomes his sidekick repackaged in a frog outfit.

King Kong Bundy: Honorary white member of New Day, has frequent dance offs with Xavier Woods to prove who can jive best

:vince5
 

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And that's fine, but if you want big money, you cater to STARS. You don't try making your company the star. Look at all of the bullshit Dana White deals with from Conor, but when the PPV numbers come in it's alllllll worth it and then some. They make money together. Most of the guys who walked out on the WWE had plenty of valid reason to do it, and were RIGHT about the point they were making.

WWE is all about stooges today. And their stooges don't draw. Stars draw. As big of a debacle as Punk fighting in the UFC was, I'm sure Dana White is still very pleased with his return, since Punk drew him a fucking lot of PPV buys for an event that wouldn't have done near that number otherwise. And this was a guy WWE didn't deem a "star" or capable of drawing. Well, he's certainly a bigger star than anyone in their company right now. WWE had to abandon PPV, otherwise it would be fun to see the laughable numbers guys like Reigns put up trying to sell shows.
Yeah, I'm not disagreeing lol, but it is what it is. Essentially Vince McMahon knows how to make stars, but for whatever fucked up reason, he is choosing not to.

HHH on the flip side genuinely does not know how to make stars.
 

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The Hardy's are doing this over in TNA. You can't say that gimmick is not cool and creative.

Or what about Lucha Underground with their cool, creative angles.

The fans don't tune in.

The ratings seem to indicate that the fans don't tune in to cool, creative stuff and just watch what they perceive to be number one.

I mean when the WWE was killing the WCW at the end of the Monday Night Wars people still watched WWE over WCW in the worst Mae Young segment.

Brand Power and Star Power seems to be what draws and both storylines and wrestling seem to be secondary.

Unfortunately, right now they have all the stars in part timers at the expense of the weekly product stars. That's whats primarily killing the product.
 

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Yeah, I'm not disagreeing lol, but it is what it is. Essentially Vince McMahon knows how to make stars, but for whatever fucked up reason, he is choosing not to.

HHH on the flip side genuinely does not know how to make stars.
I dont believe that anymore. I once bought into that, but now I know that is a false opinion that WWE has planted into our minds. Vince McMahon is a genius promoter, no doubt he can create a show and attract the masses IF he has the right ingredients to work with but he has no idea how to build a star, he never had.
 

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I dont believe that anymore. I once bought into that, but now I know that is a false opinion that WWE has planted into our minds. Vince McMahon is a genius promoter, no doubt he can create a show and attract the masses IF he has the right ingredients to work with but he has no idea how to build a star, he never had.
i disagree, look at the early ruthless aggression era crop they all became stars
 

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i disagree, look at the early ruthless aggression era crop they all became stars
Ofcourse but not half as big as the AE stars. All Cena, Orton and Batista at their prime cant match up Hogan, Rock or Austin's star power.

5 years from now guys like KO, Roman, Rollins, Ambrose etc. will be consideres "stars".
 

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Ofcourse but not half as big as the AE stars. All Cena, Orton and Batista at their prime cant match up Hogan, Rock or Austin's star power.

5 years from now guys like KO, Roman, Rollins, Ambrose etc. will be consideres "stars".
Of course Cena, Orton and Batista can't match up to them. The overall wrestling fanbase in their time frame doesn't compare.

This is where my issue comes in with the whole "Cena didn't draw nearly as much as Rock, Austin or Hogan". Of course he fucking couldn't. Did everyone suddenly forget how much people watched wrestling during the Monday Night Wars on a regular basis?

Lets take a look at Raw in 2005 for a moment and compare it with, say, 1998. In 2005, Cena able to help Raw gradually increase their ratings for the first time in god knows how long. The increase wasn't anything earth shattering but it was none the less a significant increase. Raw was able to average around 3.8 in 2005 after averaging 3.6 the previous year. At this point, WWE was the number one pro wrestling company in the world. Nothing else came close.

In 1998, Raw's average was significantly higher than this, with a 4.35 rating average. And yet despite this, they were LOSING that year. Yes, there was another pro wrestling show for another company beating them. You had a much higher audience to work with, which meant a larger number of fans to draw in.

Since 2004, only three guys where able to actually halt WWE's ratings decline and give them a slight gradual increase. Those guys where Cena, Batista, and Daniel Bryan. To try to compare them with Rock, Austin and Hogan is unfair and makes little sense. I'm not saying they would draw as much, if not more, but if we're going to make this claim, we're gonna need more to go off of than just "look at how much Rock drew during his time!"
 

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Take the booze, steroids and drugs away from all of the previous generations stars and see what you get - a bunch of nothing.

I know it sounds silly but imagine everyone from Hogan, Austin, Rock, Flair, HBK, Goldberg, Outsiders, Savage etc without any juice or booze/drugs?!?!

Now replace all of that with smoothies and video games and you get the same pussy shit you see on the roster now.
 

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Discussion Starter #79
I see what you mean but sometimes, you can't even show that IT factor without that freedom they no longer have. Where was Austin's IT factor when he was The Ringmaster? Hell, if the company hadn't given him freedom to find his own character, we'd now be talking about Fang McFrost instead of Stone Cold. Where was The Rock's IT factor when he was Rocky Maivia and when he had the most extreme example of X-Pac heat I can think of? The point is, sometimes you can't see that IT factor when the wrestler is not allowed to do their own thing and find what they're good at and what they can excel in. Hell, Roman Reigns might as well have IT, only he can't show it because they so stubbornly refuse to let him develop a character of his own.

At the end of the day, it's all just a means to an end, with that end being getting over. If Sami Zayn wasn't over, you could talk about how it's because he doesn't have personality or character. But he was MEGA over in Montreal when he faced Cena. He was MEGA over at the Royal Rumble. He was MEGA over at WrestleMania. He was MEGA over when he beat Owens at Battleground. Is it his fault that now he's wallowing in the midcard, or is it WWE's because they didn't follow up on it and turn that overness into a money draw?
I really don't think those examples are applicable to today's environment.

You could see the greatness in Austin as Stunning Steve and even in his extremely brief run as The Ringmaster. People in the industry who knew their shit (Paul E, Jim Ross, even Russo) LOVED Austin. Sometimes the audience is merely behind and that was certainly true of early to mid '90s wrestling crowds.

Rocky Maivia is also not a great example. He got X-Pac heat because wrestling was going through a massive transition in presentation and he was the poster boy for Vince's dated gimmicks. Not to mention, he was green as hell and had way less grooming than today's developmental figures. His PPV debut was a mere eight months after he decided to get into the industry. And listen to the way Jim Ross raved about him in those early broadcasts. He doesn't say everyone is going to be "the man" like he said about Rock. He met the kid and knew he had something special. The company was just initially off on how to package it. This was quickly rectified and he still shot to the moon in record time.

Obviously, the booking today is inconsistent and this makes things hard. But that doesn't change that Sami Zayn - in his look and his vibe - is a geek. He got over with highly niche audiences and his potential for drawing casuals in a main event/non-gimmicky capacity is extraordinarily limited.
 

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Take the booze, steroids and drugs away from all of the previous generations stars and see what you get - a bunch of nothing.

I know it sounds silly but imagine everyone from Hogan, Austin, Rock, Flair, HBK, Goldberg, Outsiders, Savage etc without any juice or booze/drugs?!?!

Now replace all of that with smoothies and video games and you get the same pussy shit you see on the roster now.
It sounds terrible, but I 100% agree. Same goes for creativity in todays rock music.
 
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