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One of the biggest thing is these guys do not NEED wrestling anymore to get into the entertainment business, and the entertainment business continues to evolve.

There are now so many cable networks, "reality shows", extended sports leagues, streaming services with original content, hell even youtube all with content to fill and "actors" needed that its never been easier to get your foot in the door in the "entertainment industry" rather than having to try and kill yourself being a pro-wrestler. The talent pool the WWE and other promotions have to choose from is smaller than ever before its really down to guys that love the business and WANT to be pro-wrestlers first or guys that literally have no other options to get into the entertainment world, but want to, and the latter group is smaller than ever before.
 

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Reading through the Goldberg threads and how most noted the huge charisma and aura boost he provided compared to the full-time roster. While you see a lot of blame on Vince for not booking well, not protecting the right people, ect., it's getting increasingly hard to believe that there is some huge superstar out there that the company just can't bring the goods out of for they can't get out of their own way.

I simply refuse to believe that it is 100% on the company when a 20-year block where we were introduced to truly towering personalities such Roddy Piper, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Randy Savage, Hall & Nash, Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin and The Rock (just to name a few) has been followed up by a 15-year block where we get...umm...uh...John Cena and CM Punk. Those two are the unquestioned standouts of magnetism that broke out post-Attitude Era and frankly even they don't pass muster when you stand them next to the stars of these previous generations.

Diagnose the symptoms for why it is all you like, but as simple as it sounds, genuinely entrancing people must have stopped looking at wrestling as something to shoot for because the faces coming out of development belong to honest-to-God geeks. Yes, the company does share in the blame as they've not put their talent in the best positions to succeed but even if they had, guys like Seth Rollins, Kevin Owens, Sami Zayn, etc. have a ceiling and it's not a level that is going to create new wrestling fans. That's what the "IT" factor is all about and the wrestling industry simply doesn't attract "IT" people like it used to. That's clear as crystal.
You are 100% correct. The best post I have ever seen on WF.

If someone wants to tell me sami zayn, owens or rollins are even COMBINED even close to as cool as kevin nash then I will listen to their reasons.

Wrestling isn't cool anymore and alot of that is because wrestlers aren't cool.

I blame cena personally. HIm and the wwe brainwashed everyone into thinking that just because he works hard and loves the business then that gives him a right to be at the top. SO we now see a generation of fans who value these qualities over the IT factor and being cool.

Its a shame, but the likes of kevin nash would never get into the wrestling business today. We do need some of these guys to come along again and make wrestling cool again.

Kevin nash, even hbk, even hhh, the rock, austin, hogan, sting..steiner...bocker t even. They were all cool. Genuinely cool dudes. Now look and we have a bunch of nerds.
 

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Wrestling just appeals to a different crowd these days. Anyone that has broken into the business within the past 10 years or so did so at a time where wrestling wasn't seen as tough anymore, it wasn't seen as glamorous anymore, and it wasn't seen as edgy anymore (those are how I perceive the various era's/decades prior to the early 2000's).

Writing and star power certainly has a lot to do with it, but you know what the number 1 reason for the downfall of wrestling has been? ... And I know people are going to flame me for this, but it's the truth... It's the same reason people say that the NFL sucks now... Because they're trying to protect their performers (and with WWE, their kid fans) more than before. Steroids are out, drugs are out, moves that focus on the head and neck are out, weapons shots to the head are out, PRETENDING to strangle somebody is out. It's a result of the Chris Benoit situation and their trying to save face in an effort to not repeat the steroid scandal of the early 90's. As I said, it's not different from older NFL fans "missing the REAL football days when football was football"/i.e., anything goes.

Most fans today would disagree, because they grew up in this era and are more workrate-oriented, but Jeff Hardy jumping off of a 20 foot ladder, Dusty Rhodes in a barbed wire match, Mankind getting hit in the head with a chair 12 times, Jannetty getting thrown headfirst through a window, and alpha male characters like Batista, Goldberg and Lesnar will always be more entertaining for MOST people (not necessarily CURRENT fans) than some little guy that can perform a nice wristlock. A coked-up New Jack jumping off of a balcony while bleeding is going to have more of your average 15-40 year old males stopping to watch while flipping through the channel than anything that is currently on WWE programming (as would your typical 80's style guy that just looks like a genuine bad ass that wants to beat people up).


TL;DR - it's hard to compare today's star power to previous generations as the guys aren't allowed to do anything that makes people stop and say, "whoa, I want to see what happens next!". It would be like asking current musicians to make music like the early 90's without the drugs.
 

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Idk about that.

IMO there are a few wrestlers in WWE who have an "aura" around them...Just on the top of my head
Zayn.. aura of the best pure babyface in the world.
AJ.. aura of the best wrestler in the world.
Lesnar.. the unstoppable beast, the final monster, kinda of like Goro from Mortal Combat.
Nakamura.. bad ass fighter star aura.
Samoa Joe.. bad ass bully aura.
Reigns.. well maybe as a heel he can display the most entitled overconfident fuck aura.
Jericho.. he has a must watch aura, almost everything he's ever done is gold.
Finn Balor.. People can complain all they want and they can hate all they want, he's a mega star, best look, an unbeatable DEMON.
Cena.. well he is the most charismatic.
The Miz.. Movie Star aura.
The 4-HW.. each one unique and there's a reason almost everytime they face each-other it's magic.

Now, obviously, take into consideration, PG booking the no swearing/no sex appeal/ no weapons, smarter fans/internet/spoilers, HQ TV making things look more "fake", stale personas ( seriously, Cena's been the same for 11 years now? Cmon WWE), putting down over wrestlers on purpose, more injuries, NO STEROIDS, not much backstage drama, and the popularity of UFC merging characters that act like they hate each-other till they fight ( I mean, I don't believe for a second Cybord and Ronda hate each-other, but if these two gals ever met I'm willing to bet it will break Conor/Diaz II buyrate record, it's two great fighters who've destroyed eachother in trash talk, same for what happened between Diaz and Conor)..

We've got our monsters, our beasts, our bullies, our jerks, our underdogs, our superhero, our evil genius villain, our versatile athletes.. we've got the women now more over than 80% of the roster when they were getting crickets not even 3 years back, and just looking at NXT I know the rise of tag team wrestling is upon us. I have faith in the guys and girls who have traveled all the world, who want this, legitimately want this and are passionate about it, and that's why I remained by my stance that it's 99% on creative to know how to utilize the stars, the supporting cast, the fillers, and the jobbers. But it'll only be good for a certain degree with the restraints I already mentioned.
wtf.....dude come on.

Zayn has no aura around him. He is as vanilla as they come. In fact his whole popularity with certain fans comes from the fact he isnt special, that is the normal guy against the odds.

Balor a megastar? Really? He has nothing about him. Again he isn't cool. He works hard and tries to put on good matches (I actually dont like his matches at all, I think owens and bryan for example are way better).

Aj styles aura is he is the best wrestler int he world? That isnt an aura someone has. That is what you think about someone after watching them. An aura is something that someone picks up immedietly. Like they are flicking the tv channels and they see hogan and he had an aura about him. You cant tell me someone randomly flicks the tv channels, sees styles walk down to the ring and says "wow he is the best wrestler in the world". That literally, factually makes no sense based on what aura means dude sorry.

samoa joe... he has no aura. He just looks like a slob honestly. He isnt big or imposing. I have no doubt he is a tough guy but there is no aura there. He is just another dude who is a decent worker with little charisma.
 

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HHH is trying to take the business AWAY from the stereotypical WWE Star types, because he thinks the business is about the internet nowadays. Which is why the only fans left are a hardcore fanbase, and even THAT is rapidly dwindling because of the lack of star power or cool factor. All he hires is these "It's my dream to be here!" types that have no aspirations to be superstars and just want to Tweet about how great their job is and how cool it was that the Rock gives them a People's Elbow and act like starstruck dopey little marks.

They need guys like Punk who want to transcend the business, not be Corporate WWE tools.
 

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Writing and star power certainly has a lot to do with it, but you know what the number 1 reason for the downfall of wrestling has been? ... And I know people are going to flame me for this, but it's the truth... It's the same reason people say that the NFL sucks now... Because they're trying to protect their performers (and with WWE, their kid fans) more than before. Steroids are out, drugs are out, moves that focus on the head and neck are out, weapons shots to the head are out, PRETENDING to strangle somebody is out. It's a result of the Chris Benoit situation and their trying to save face in an effort to not repeat the steroid scandal of the early 90's. As I said, it's not different from older NFL fans "missing the REAL football days when football was football"/i.e., anything goes.
your entire post is 5 stars, but this part is truest. It's why I also mentioned steroids in my posts in bold. The fact they're protecting the talent and not allowing the drug use should be a good thing, but the sadistic people on here want to see people kill each-other for their entertainment and then literally die at 45-50. Yeah no thanks.

Potential is the operative word. He could be a big star, just like Bray Wyatt could have been a big star. And use Bray as an example because he kinda runs parallel to Balor. Both NXT guys who go called up, are supernaturally influenced in gimmick, were super over with live crowds but got hurt at crucial times. The Wyatt Family was just as over as the Shield but look at all 6 men now. Potential doesn't mean shit in WWE.

And don't spew nonsense about no "real wrestling fans" want big guys. That's asinine. Real fans love variety from top to bottom. Presentation is what it comes down to. Angle and Austin aren't giants, Rock and HHH are big guys, Kane, Taker and Big Show are giants. And all of them were champions several times over in the span of 3 years. You gotta get off the workrate horse. Those guys had and some still, have amazing matches. That variety in styles, size and ability is what won the war of the late 90's and don't you forget that.




Of corse the ratings dropped, there was no war, no competition and worst of all it was followed up by the most head-up-my-own-ass victory dance in history, the InVasion angle. A flop from week 3 I believe. I can't speak for the Roman thing, I know he gets booed but so did Cena the other boring run of the mill, nice guy, please like me face.

Again you show ignorance when speaking of 90's wrestling. If 90's wrestling was just, SEX AND VIOLENCE to you then you're a fool. WCW was always a TV PG product. Go back and educate yourself. How many times did promos devolve into cursing contests? How many "sluts" were there in the peak years? How often did guys blade? WCW was a TV PG show plain and simple. In place of blood you had the nWo spraying people, instead of sexy women in panties you had the cruiserweights to wow the crowd with their bodies, and promos were just a lot of tough guy "I'm gonna kick your ass" type of talk usually, until Sting showed up or when someone tried to fight but got ganged by the nWo.

WWF had sex, beer, cursing and blood but it all worked for the key demo of 18 to 34 year old males. That's what the frat boys wanted, that's what they got. But it also made sense not only to the narrative of the show, but to the 90's itself, FUCK YOU! But again go back to the names I mention before, they all were superstars in the mainstream. And not only that, they could wrestle too!
two things.

The first bold part you basically said everything I wanted to say, and I have no idea how you put these words in my mouth. All the guys you named I'm a fan of of ( except HHH, he can go to hell). If a guy can work the mic, or is good in the ring, or has the crowd support him organically, I'll be supportive 100% ( even if I;m not a fan, like I was with Ambrose, or Sasha now). However, I won't go out and claim all the guys today aren't stars and someone like Batista was much bigger, someone who had a manufactured push, someone with very limited ring and mic ability, and was put over by his psychotic friend egomanic friend-at the time- at least.

the 2nd part, I was speaking about the late 90's WWE.
I know WCW was PG, it was my main point whenever everyone claims that PG era ruined wrestling, when WCW did PG and did it great. However, since WWE failed miserably at PG ( ratings wise, I still enjoy the product, however it was kinda of sad to see Zayn get one of his biggest reaction ever when he was allowed to say the word "bitch"), it should be gone.

Also, about Balor. I mean potential, but we all knw the guy is bound to being pushed, he's young, good ring worker, and is arguably the best looking wrestler of all times, and so far he's not being rejected by the audience, with the right push, which he will be given, why the hell not won't he be a star?

WWE F'ed up The Shield and Wyatts by making the Shield each play the complete opposite of their natural character, each one of them, because they just HAD TO make Roman FOTC. And they fed the Wyatts to him and Cena.

I think I should also clarify by star, I 99% mean wrestling star, I don't give a fuck if someone becomes mainstream or not, like The Rock did. I mean a wrestling star that is well known, like Cena.
 

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HHH is trying to take the business AWAY from the stereotypical WWE Star types, because he thinks the business is about the internet nowadays. Which is why the only fans left are a hardcore fanbase, and even THAT is rapidly dwindling because of the lack of star power or cool factor. All he hires is these "It's my dream to be here!" types that have no aspirations to be superstars and just want to Tweet about how great their job is and how cool it was that the Rock gives them a People's Elbow and act like starstruck dopey little marks.

They need guys like Punk who want to transcend the business, not be Corporate WWE tools.
this is on point sir
 

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HHH is trying to take the business AWAY from the stereotypical WWE Star types, because he thinks the business is about the internet nowadays. Which is why the only fans left are a hardcore fanbase, and even THAT is rapidly dwindling because of the lack of star power or cool factor. All he hires is these "It's my dream to be here!" types that have no aspirations to be superstars and just want to Tweet about how great their job is and how cool it was that the Rock gives them a People's Elbow and act like starstruck dopey little marks.

They need guys like Punk who want to transcend the business, not be Corporate WWE tools.
Unfortunately I think Punk himself put the last nail in the coffin of the whole concept of "Superstar standing up for himself against Vince"; not that he meant to or has any fault, but the whole story of his departure from WWE is a huge "WARNING" for all the other guys.
 

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Do you think Hulk Hogan and Austin and The Rock would have gotten over half as much as they did had they been cutting overscripted promos and been shoved into molds instead of getting freedom to develop their own characters?
 

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Unfortunately I think Punk himself put the last nail in the coffin of the whole concept of "Superstar standing up for himself against Vince"; not that he meant to or has any fault, but the whole story of his departure from WWE is a huge "WARNING" for all the other guys.
Yeah, and he outright said "I don't understand what we're doing as a business anymore." because nothing they do makes any sort of sense when it comes to making stars. They outright WON'T ALLOW YOU to be a star if they don't already deem you star-worthy in advance. And meanwhile, the fans are begging for organic stars and shitting on all of the WWE-propaganda pushes. But the front office can't see it. It's all so very absurd.
 

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You are 100% correct. The best post I have ever seen on WF.

If someone wants to tell me sami zayn, owens or rollins are even COMBINED even close to as cool as kevin nash then I will listen to their reasons.

Wrestling isn't cool anymore and alot of that is because wrestlers aren't cool.

I blame cena personally. HIm and the wwe brainwashed everyone into thinking that just because he works hard and loves the business then that gives him a right to be at the top. SO we now see a generation of fans who value these qualities over the IT factor and being cool.

Its a shame, but the likes of kevin nash would never get into the wrestling business today. We do need some of these guys to come along again and make wrestling cool again.

Kevin nash, even hbk, even hhh, the rock, austin, hogan, sting..steiner...bocker t even. They were all cool. Genuinely cool dudes. Now look and we have a bunch of nerds.
Yes I remember the cool days of Vinnie Vegas, Oz and Big Daddy Cool. Kevin Nash is the very definition of a storyline making a career. I agree Nash is a sharp guy and he has charisma, but there are maybe a handful of guys that can rise above stupid gimmicks and storylines. Nash was not one of them. You can complain all you want about the wrestlers, but if Raw really has 23 writers, they must collectively be the dumbest bunch of writers in the history of modern literacy.
 

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WWE is at a point now where no matter what they try to do at the top of the card, it's going to meet resistance from a toxic and spiteful fanbase. In a situation like that, there can be no stars. And it's not as simple as saying WWE should push who 'we' want because the truth is, nobody knows what they fucking want and it changes from week to week. As soon as a guy gets backing from the company they are turned on. If a guy get backing from the company straight out of the blocks they are turned on. If a guy is an 'indy' guy he's more than likely being pushed for his ring work rather than his mic or character work...which will eventually both be shat on and they are turned on.

WWE won't ever make another star if this aggressive pushing of guys on their end and pushing back on the fans end continues. That's not even talking about the myriad of other issues but at its core, this is the biggest battle imo. The fanbase right now is entitled and petty. Ain't nobody getting over ever again if it continues.

And yeah, 90% of the guys today look like fucking geeks when compared with what wrestling stars used to be. That's a big part of the problem too.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Do you think Hulk Hogan and Austin and The Rock would have gotten over half as much as they did had they been cutting overscripted promos and been shoved into molds instead of getting freedom to develop their own characters?
If they were over half as much, they'd still be head, shoulders and chest above the rest of this roster.

Look, I get it. You need a good performer and good booking. But you can't totally hide the IT factor, nor can you totally hide that you're a boring tool like Sami Zayn. That's my point. Even with the BEST booking, I don't see anybody out there with the natural charisma to become a genuinely legendary personality. That's a stunning drop-off from where the business used to be when we had so many memorable characters.

Some good answers here. The point about not being able to work on your character on TV as in the territority days made a lot of sense as did the one about HHH only bringing in subservient nerds who won't rock the boat.
 

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Yeah, and he outright said "I don't understand what we're doing as a business anymore." because nothing they do makes any sort of sense when it comes to making stars. They outright WON'T ALLOW YOU to be a star if they don't already deem you star-worthy in advance. And meanwhile, the fans are begging for organic stars and shitting on all of the WWE-propaganda pushes. But the front office can't see it. It's all so very absurd.
IMO the problem here is 50% Vince McMahon not wanting to risk having a star so big that they become bigger than the product and then leave. CM Punk wasn't bigger than wrestling, I don't know if he ever had the potential to be, but if you look back at a lot of the big stars, once they were big enough to play politics it became a threat to the show itself. Austin walking out.... Warrior walking out.... Hogan leaving for the WCW led to the NWO which almost put his company out of business.... there's a lot that can go wrong if a wrestler becomes too big. IMO one of the reasons why Cena was pushed for as long and as hard was because Vince saw that making him a superstar was a safe bet, because the guy would still be incredibly loyal to the company. I think it's clear Vince doesn't get those vibes with a lot of the guy's on today's roster.

The other 50% of the problem is that HHH doesn't understand that Indy darlings are big draws on the smaller stages but on the big stage they just don't have the same impact. A casual fan isn't going to be impressed with a small guy these days no matter how many flips they can do, compared to a monster like Brock Lesnar who doesn't need to do any moonsaults lol.
 

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lol let me let you in on a little secret.
Your guy was a worse version of Roman Reigns, at least Reigns is average in the ring. Your guy sucked and he was lucky enough to be friends with HHH who decided to end his reign of terror by losing 3 times clean to his "friend". That's why he was eaten alive by the crowd in 14. If the BOOKING of Batista in 2005 wasn't perfect, and added to fact HHH's reign of terror was killing RAW, he would have been Mason Ryan.

In other words, every ME of the past era Rey, Punk, Bryan, Cena, Orton, Edge, Jericho, Taker, Angle, Jeff Hardy >> Batista.
Why bring Batista into this. He isnt even part of this thread nor was he ever discussed.

BTW, Batista has aura, something that you commented on. Batista is a guy that you can put in the ring with Taker and he looks like he belongs. Now Batista is a successful star outside the biz. Balor does not have the aura and wont be as successful as Batista. If this makes you mad than I am sorry.
 

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IMO the problem here is 50% Vince McMahon not wanting to risk having a star so big that they become bigger than the product and then leave. CM Punk wasn't bigger than wrestling, I don't know if he ever had the potential to be, but if you look back at a lot of the big stars, once they were big enough to play politics it became a threat to the show itself. Austin walking out.... Warrior walking out.... Hogan leaving for the WCW led to the NWO which almost put his company out of business.... there's a lot that can go wrong if a wrestler becomes too big. IMO one of the reasons why Cena was pushed for as long and as hard was because Vince saw that making him a superstar was a safe bet, because the guy would still be incredibly loyal to the company. I think it's clear Vince doesn't get those vibes with a lot of the guy's on today's roster.

The other 50% of the problem is that HHH doesn't understand that Indy darlings are big draws on the smaller stages but on the big stage they just don't have the same impact. A casual fan isn't going to be impressed with a small guy these days no matter how many flips they can do, compared to a monster like Brock Lesnar who doesn't need to do any moonsaults lol.
And that's fine, but if you want big money, you cater to STARS. You don't try making your company the star. Look at all of the bullshit Dana White deals with from Conor, but when the PPV numbers come in it's alllllll worth it and then some. They make money together. Most of the guys who walked out on the WWE had plenty of valid reason to do it, and were RIGHT about the point they were making.

WWE is all about stooges today. And their stooges don't draw. Stars draw. As big of a debacle as Punk fighting in the UFC was, I'm sure Dana White is still very pleased with his return, since Punk drew him a fucking lot of PPV buys for an event that wouldn't have done near that number otherwise. And this was a guy WWE didn't deem a "star" or capable of drawing. Well, he's certainly a bigger star than anyone in their company right now. WWE had to abandon PPV, otherwise it would be fun to see the laughable numbers guys like Reigns put up trying to sell shows.
 

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Reading through the Goldberg threads and how most noted the huge charisma and aura boost he provided compared to the full-time roster. While you see a lot of blame on Vince for not booking well, not protecting the right people, ect., it's getting increasingly hard to believe that there is some huge superstar out there that the company just can't bring the goods out of for they can't get out of their own way.

I simply refuse to believe that it is 100% on the company when a 20-year block where we were introduced to truly towering personalities such Roddy Piper, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Randy Savage, Hall & Nash, Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin and The Rock (just to name a few) has been followed up by a 15-year block where we get...umm...uh...John Cena and CM Punk. Those two are the unquestioned standouts of magnetism that broke out post-Attitude Era and frankly even they don't pass muster when you stand them next to the stars of these previous generations.
Got more over than both of them

 

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Where did this myth come from that 80's wrestlers were all badasses who looked like they'd destroy you? A lot of them just look kinda chubby tbh lol.









I think a lot of people look at the 80's through rose tinted glasses tbh, I was there. The reason guys like Warrior and Hogan stood out so much for me back then was a lot of other wrestlers seemed like someone's Dad or Uncle in comparison. A large number of those wrestlers were big, yes, but they weren't huge scary intimidating dudes, they were more like heavyset regular dudes in their underwear lol.
 
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If they were over half as much, they'd still be head, shoulders and chest above the rest of this roster.

Look, I get it. You need a good performer and good booking. But you can't totally hide the IT factor, nor can you totally hide that you're a boring tool like Sami Zayn. That's my point. Even with the BEST booking, I don't see anybody out there with the natural charisma to become a genuinely legendary personality. That's a stunning drop-off from where the business used to be when we had so many memorable characters.

Some good answers here. The point about not being able to work on your character on TV as in the territority days made a lot of sense as did the one about HHH only bringing in subservient nerds who won't rock the boat.
I see what you mean but sometimes, you can't even show that IT factor without that freedom they no longer have. Where was Austin's IT factor when he was The Ringmaster? Hell, if the company hadn't given him freedom to find his own character, we'd now be talking about Fang McFrost instead of Stone Cold. Where was The Rock's IT factor when he was Rocky Maivia and when he had the most extreme example of X-Pac heat I can think of? The point is, sometimes you can't see that IT factor when the wrestler is not allowed to do their own thing and find what they're good at and what they can excel in. Hell, Roman Reigns might as well have IT, only he can't show it because they so stubbornly refuse to let him develop a character of his own.

At the end of the day, it's all just a means to an end, with that end being getting over. If Sami Zayn wasn't over, you could talk about how it's because he doesn't have personality or character. But he was MEGA over in Montreal when he faced Cena. He was MEGA over at the Royal Rumble. He was MEGA over at WrestleMania. He was MEGA over when he beat Owens at Battleground. Is it his fault that now he's wallowing in the midcard, or is it WWE's because they didn't follow up on it and turn that overness into a money draw?
 
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