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Discussion Starter #1
Vicki generates some phenomenal heat, gotta' give her credit. She's really made Ziggler "relevant" again too, which I love because Ziggler is the year's most improved star and has had some exceptional matches and series'.

But what I'm afraid of now is that after helping Ziggler so much, all she's doing now is stealing his spotlight. On Raw this past week, did Ziggler even speak? He was having a huge match with the company's biggest star and they don't even let him cut a genuine promo on his own? Even if you think he sucks on the mic (which he doesn't IMO, as he cuts a decent promo when given the chance), how is he ever going to improve if he's never allowed to speak?

Vicki has given him the heat and attention he needed. Now he needs to grow on the mic and he's not being given the chance. Do you think that now is the time to ditch her, considering character is where he now needs to build?


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Also as a side question, a lot of people have slated McIntire as a poor heel "not because he generates good heat but because people genuinely don't want to see him on TV". My question is, how is this different to Vicki? Live crowds don't want to see her and therefore boo her like crazy. Personally I don't find her repetitiveness "entertaining", the same way McIntire repeats himself to get heat. How is it any different?
 

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To your McIntyre question, he's not supposed to be annoying, just un-wanted, booed etc. Vickie's character is supposed to be annoying, and just about everybody in the arena wants her gone.

Anyways, to your Ziggler question, I agree. He should speak more if they want him to improve on the mic. Although he did speak, Vickie is more comfortable in that area. So for now I see leave the talking to Vickie, and the wrestling to Dolph Ziggler.
 

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Vicki generates some phenomenal heat, gotta' give her credit. She's really made Ziggler "relevant" again too, which I love because Ziggler is the year's most improved star and has had some exceptional matches and series'.

But what I'm afraid of now is that after helping Ziggler so much, all she's doing now is stealing his spotlight. On Raw this past week, did Ziggler even speak? He was having a huge match with the company's biggest star and they don't even let him cut a genuine promo on his own? Even if you think he sucks on the mic (which he doesn't IMO, as he cuts a decent promo when given the chance), how is he ever going to improve if he's never allowed to speak?

Vicki has given him the heat and attention he needed. Now he needs to grow on the mic and he's not being given the chance. Do you think that now is the time to ditch her, considering character is where he now needs to build?


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Also as a side question, a lot of people have slated McIntire as a poor heel "not because he generates good heat but because people genuinely don't want to see him on TV". My question is, how is this different to Vicki? Live crowds don't want to see her and therefore boo her like crazy. Personally I don't find her repetitiveness "entertaining", the same way McIntire repeats himself to get heat. How is it any different?
You can't even compare McIntyre and Vickie's heat. It's like comparing Hardcore Holly's pop to Stone Cold's.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Now that you mention it, I'd love to see a Ziggler face turn as long as he's given the mic time to grow.
Though surely Vickie would need a main guy to pit him up against and I'm struggling to think of who. Drew seems to be busy with the Kelly thing though could work, Swagger I don't think would work, maybe big Zeke?
You can't even compare McIntyre and Vickie's heat. It's like comparing Hardcore Holly's pop to Stone Cold's.
You haven't comprehended my question properly. I don't give two shits how big their heat or pops are, I'm saying the style they get them is the same.
To your McIntyre question, he's not supposed to be annoying, just un-wanted, booed etc.
Does it need to be different? Either way, the fans genuinely don't want to see them on screen, in the ring etc. so isn't it the same thing? If people are booing because they aren't providing them with entertainment then surely it's the same thing? Yes, Vickie is meant to be more annoying than anything but Drew does the whole routine phrases thing that got Cole's GM stuff so over.

Some heels I enjoy seeing, eg. Punk or Del Rio.

Some heels, I would boo at a live show because I'm impartial to them or I prefer the face in the match, eg. Ezekial Jackson or Chavo.

Some heels, I just don't enjoy seeing. This is Vickie's bracket through and through (and while I enjoy his work, The IWC seems to be on this stance with McIntire).
 

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If (and I agree it looks very likely) they turn Ziggler face, they need to do it carefully. For a start, I don't think it should be Ziggler turning on Vickie; I'd prefer to see a storyline where she keeps pushing him too hard, forcing him into matches and situations which are detrimental to him, and eventually betraying him when she decides he isn't good enough for her, finding herself a new toyboy (Jacob Novak, maybe?)

Remember Eric Escobar? He just turned on Vickie out of nowhere, and it actually made him look worse. The fans didn't care about his struggle against Vickie and the Hart Dynasty because he seemed like he deserved the beatdowns he was getting; he was still the same sleazy gold-digger, only now he was being a dick towards the woman he'd been exploiting, and the fact that the fans hated her didn't make his sleazy dick character any more likeable. Ziggler's turn needs to be done in such away that the fans have a good reason to get behind him, aside from "he's making fun of Vickie Guerrero LOLOLOL".

Of course, the most simple and obvious way would be for her interference in his matches to become a hindrance, and for him to show a desire to prove his ability as a serious competitor by himself.

Either way, I can't wait to see Dolph as a face. I can't help but root for him in his matches, and I'd like to see the audience reacting the same way.
 

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The second Ziggler turns on Vickie and the match he has after that, he'll come out with crowd cheers. And if not the first match, then the second.

If they wanna push Ziggler right, they gotta do it right.
 

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The only problem is Zolph Ziggler is a great heel mainly because he's an arrogant prick so hew shouldn't turn face otherwise it'd be MVP all over again. If he can talk then yes, Vickie should no longer be needed because now she's just holding him back because the focus is on her.

- Vic
 

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Let's end this right now...Ziggler wouldn't even be getting pushed if not for Vickie Guerrero. Kaitlyn has disappeared but Vickie is still in the forefront and he STILL can't transfer her heat on to him. That's how much that idiot SUCKS. Even Edge knew how to do that right...
 

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But what I'm afraid of now is that after helping Ziggler so much, all she's doing now is stealing his spotlight. On Raw this past week, did Ziggler even speak? He was having a huge match with the company's biggest star and they don't even let him cut a genuine promo on his own? Even if you think he sucks on the mic (which he doesn't IMO, as he cuts a decent promo when given the chance), how is he ever going to improve if he's never allowed to speak?
Ziggler's a great wrestler, but he's a terrible actor. He had every chance to jump in during that promo and give it to the crowd, and he remained dead silent. He also made Derrick Bateman look like an unpatriotic douchebag on NXT the night before the Tribute to the Troops show. He clearly doesn't understand that you aren't supposed to make the faces out to be arseholes.

The last promo I can remember from Ziggler was the woeful one with Pat Patterson (which again showed he has zero improv skills), and thankfully we haven't seen another.
 

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I agree Vicki is hindering him - except, she is building him into a great face. The problem is that Dolph has got to act face while defending Vicki, which he has done successfully unto a degree. See NXT reactions to Dolph's Rookie, Mr generic.

But if he had gone on the offensive about the fat jokes, showing how they were in bad taste and degrading, it would have gained a lot of heat, at a time, he does not want personal heat, but to give reasons for Vicki to push him out.

Personally, I think this is a new angle, where Vicki treats Dolph badly, to end the relationship with Vicki backing Mr generic, betraying Dolph, rather than the farce of Eric Escobar.

After all, Dolph has been presented as quite the gentleman - saying Vicki is beautiful both on the inside and outside!!!!!


Dolph's new gimmick will be to defend the honour of the the Divas - perhaps leading to his first feud with McIntyre, perhaps helping Drew turn face.
 

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What's going to come out of this is a Ziggler face turn, most definitely. A turn on the heat magnet Vickie would get him super over.

Also, about McIntyre...he tries hard to be a good heel, but it's either a case of the crowd not caring about him or he's too likeable and needs a face time (most likely a mix of both).
 

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at the moment he is more like vickies lacky rather than a champion, he's really puttign it on in teh ring but just needs a promo every now an again, not even a big one, just a "im your champion, respect me you ignorant rednecks" kinda thing...
 

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The only problem is Zolph Ziggler is a great heel mainly because he's an arrogant prick so hew shouldn't turn face otherwise it'd be MVP all over again. If he can talk then yes, Vickie should no longer be needed because now she's just holding him back because the focus is on her.

- Vic
"If you smell......."

My point being that its about the material you get, MVP didnt get good stuff when he turned face, instead they killed his gimmick. If Ziggler gets the right lines/feuds he can be a really good face.
 

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"If you smell......."

My point being that its about the material you get, MVP didnt get good stuff when he turned face, instead they killed his gimmick. If Ziggler gets the right lines/feuds he can be a really good face.
Maybe so, but like Shawn Michaels and The Rock, they may have been good faces, but they were better heels. I would hope Dolph would stay as such.

- Vic
 

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Gingermadman said:
McIntyre doesn't get heat. No one cares about him.
Recent live reports disagree with you, just so you know.

I can't agree that Vickie is hindering Ziggler right now, but I could agree that Vickie will hinder Ziggler in the future. You used the key word already: exposure. Like the methods or not, they're not what matter; Vickie has helped Ziggler get over sooner. It's just the same as giving someone a big storyline or a lot of video packages. Would they get over on their own? Fuck no. You can't sit here and tell me that any heel superstar, currently on the roster or not, could get the fans to care just by going out and wrestling matches. Hell, some faces can't even do that. When it comes to getting a guy's name out there, you have to have a method to do it. For Ziggler, they saw Vickie as that method. We may not like it. It may seem sleazy -- BUT, it worked, and that's all that matters.

Giving a superstar something more high-profile will help their case. Without Vickie Guerrero, Dolph Ziggler coming out against Cena seems like a joke, because he wouldn't have been involved in anything else except for mid-card matches. You strip a guy down to the bare minimum, and that's all you have.

It's like that stupid argument people have about Randy Orton, about how it took him 5 years to get well and truly over. Yeah, it did. But why are you dwelling on the past? That was then, and this is the rest of his career. Are you really going to use that against him? If you are, you're going to look silly, because that's completely irrelevant, and it holds absolutely no value in any discussion about Randy Orton, unless that discussion is a reminiscing about the first 5 years of his career. Is the point pretty clear?

Ziggler is over NOW, and Ziggler is absolutely on fire NOW. They gave him the extra exposure to get him over the top, and now he's competing in his first PPV main event for a World Championship. To some people, that's called sleazy booking to get a guy to the top. To other people who just think sensibly about wrestling, that's called a fundamental push. Now, this is the rest of his career, and it's his job. If he continues to do his job as well as he's been doing it, I don't think anyone's going to be worried.

And Vickie? She'll be moved off to help someone else. Just like a booker focuses a storyline on the next superstar. It's no different; you're just telling yourselves that it is.
 

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The problem i think is Ziggler doesn't get heat , it's Vicky who gets heat. Leave Vicky backstage and there wouldn't be much boo's. Probably because Ziggler is way too excited too watch in the ring to be a heel.People cheer him for his wrestling abilety's.
 
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