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The Babyface of WF
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12,535 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Forever now it feels Vince has an agenda towards doing whatever it takes to prevent or cool off performers the fans love and truly want to see thrive in his company as if he hates the people who keep his product alive outside of the Saudi deal.

Refusal to change for the better(And Money) and just shoehorning his own personal favorites against the fans wishes remains unchanged to this day whether it effects ratings or not, A younger McMahon was no different but he was willing to try a little harder especially with the threat of WCW that gave us the Attitude Era now he's considered out of touch with his own product.

Out of touch would mean he isn't aware of the need for change but I'm not sure he's that blind one bit, People think HHH is best to take the helm and improve the product as a whole but that's pure speculation at this point.

I get it he hates the opinions of fans giving him an idea he didn't originally think of himself but you'd think he'd listen if it meant more money, Something that drives him to do business at all costs let alone the passion.
 

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it's a tarp!
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5,267 Posts
I believe it's the self-fulfilling prophecy that only SummerSlam, the Rumble and Wrestlemania draw.

Why put any effort into the rest of the year, when its only wrestling marks watching and they'll watch anything simply because it has WWE in the title.
 

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The Babyface of WF
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12,535 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I believe it's the self-fulfilling prophecy that only SummerSlam, the Rumble and Wrestlemania draw.

Why put any effort into the rest of the year, when its only wrestling marks watching and they'll watch anything simply because it has WWE in the title.
Fair point but he could have favored those popular with the audience since that's how a draw is created in the first place, He would still benefit from this logic.
 

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WWE Fan Since '81
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1,083 Posts
Vince likes doing things his way. He's been doing things his way, for a long time, and he's been very successful at it. He's not going to change just because the fans or anyone else want him to.
 

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Before AEW became a thing there were rumors of Kenny Omega and the Young Bucks signing with WWE and all I could think of was if they signed how long would it take before they felt like just another name on the roster? The unfortunate thing is it's Vince's company and he will do with it whatever he wants, but he has essentially blown making stars numerous times for what seems like no real reason.
 

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I believe it's the self-fulfilling prophecy that only SummerSlam, the Rumble and Wrestlemania draw.

Why put any effort into the rest of the year, when its only wrestling marks watching and they'll watch anything simply because it has WWE in the title.
I've been saying this for a while now. Wrestlemania is the worst thing in WWE, the show shouldn't be zero effort for 9 months of the year because "it's not wrestlemania season, why bother?" It just makes the show feel more stale and predictable than normal.

I have similar problems with the money in the bank briefcase.
 

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I think you guys really underrate him actually listening when it comes to things or just ignore it when it doesn't work out in the end. I'm like 98% sure he didn't have Kofi winning the belt at Mania in the long term plans that was fans forcing his hand. Becky winning the belt wasn't in the cards either
 

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Forever now it feels Vince has an agenda towards doing whatever it takes to prevent or cool off performers the fans love and truly want to see thrive in his company as if he hates the people who keep his product alive outside of the Saudi deal.

Refusal to change for the better(And Money) and just shoehorning his own personal favorites against the fans wishes remains unchanged to this day whether it effects ratings or not, A younger McMahon was no different but he was willing to try a little harder especially with the threat of WCW that gave us the Attitude Era now he's considered out of touch with his own product.

Out of touch would mean he isn't aware of the need for change but I'm not sure he's that blind one bit, People think HHH is best to take the helm and improve the product as a whole but that's pure speculation at this point.

I get it he hates the opinions of fans giving him an idea he didn't originally think of himself but you'd think he'd listen if it meant more money, Something that drives him to do business at all costs let alone the passion.
Just for the sake of discussion, right now who are the fan-driven wrestlers ... the ones we all (or a great majority of us) agree should be getting pushed? Because it seems whenever anyone does catch on, before WWE can de-push them or do anything at least on social media and message boards after about 3 weeks it’s “I’m tired of this guy, he’s terrible, move on.”

I mean literally the minute WWE does give someone who seems popular momentum, I see a reflex reaction that people want to abandon them.

Heck, Bryan is still in a very prominent spot but his heel title run wasn’t over with the same people who were asking him to be pushed. (And I don’t think they could recreate his DB vs. the Authority momentum if they had tried.) AJ was hot with people but they cooled on him IMO not because of booking but because he got stale. Etc.

So tell me who is hot that they aren’t pushing or is being undercut ... and I mean not just “I like him but you like this other person,” but who would the masses get behind?

The post previous to mine mentions Becky and Kofi as wrestlers WWE pushed because fans were behind them, and almost instantly it was “I’m so over that” on this forum.
 

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Is a Snit Head
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22,158 Posts
I think you guys really underrate him actually listening when it comes to things or just ignore it when it doesn't work out in the end. I'm like 98% sure he didn't have Kofi winning the belt at Mania in the long term plans that was fans forcing his hand. Becky winning the belt wasn't in the cards either
I think that was actually just a really organic reaction from everyone and I think they expected/hoped it was going to happen. Kofi was a last minute addition to the Chamber and they booked him be the last guy to get pinned.
 

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The Babyface of WF
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12,535 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Forever now it feels Vince has an agenda towards doing whatever it takes to prevent or cool off performers the fans love and truly want to see thrive in his company as if he hates the people who keep his product alive outside of the Saudi deal.

Refusal to change for the better(And Money) and just shoehorning his own personal favorites against the fans wishes remains unchanged to this day whether it effects ratings or not, A younger McMahon was no different but he was willing to try a little harder especially with the threat of WCW that gave us the Attitude Era now he's considered out of touch with his own product.

Out of touch would mean he isn't aware of the need for change but I'm not sure he's that blind one bit, People think HHH is best to take the helm and improve the product as a whole but that's pure speculation at this point.

I get it he hates the opinions of fans giving him an idea he didn't originally think of himself but you'd think he'd listen if it meant more money, Something that drives him to do business at all costs let alone the passion.
Just for the sake of discussion, right now who are the fan-driven wrestlers ... the ones we all (or a great majority of us) agree should be getting pushed? Because it seems whenever anyone does catch on, before WWE can de-push them or do anything at least on social media and message boards after about 3 weeks it’s “I’m tired of this guy, he’s terrible, move on.”

I mean literally the minute WWE does give someone who seems popular momentum, I see a reflex reaction that people want to abandon them.

Heck, Bryan is still in a very prominent spot but his heel title run wasn’t over with the same people who were asking him to be pushed. (And I don’t think they could recreate his DB vs. the Authority momentum if they had tried.) AJ was hot with people but they cooled on him IMO not because of booking but because he got stale. Etc.

So tell me who is hot that they aren’t pushing or is being undercut ... and I mean not just “I like him but you like this other person,” but who would the masses get behind?

The post previous to mine mentions Becky and Kofi as wrestlers WWE pushed because fans were behind them, and almost instantly it was “I’m so over that” on this forum.
I'm speaking of the past not just the present overall, They are not just my favorites but they had a huge following at one point or were really over enough to warrant better pushes.

Wade Barrett
Bray Wyatt
Samoa Joe
Asuka
Christian
Dolph Ziggler
Cody Rhodes
Shinsuke Nakamura
Rusev
Sasha Banks
Sami Zayn
Damien Sandow

Just to name a few, You don't have to be on the level Of Daniel Bryan and force their hands to recognize talent in front of you.
 

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847 Posts
There isn't much to be said that CM Punk didn't already say back in the day in the pipebomb promo. It still rings true till this day. Vince McMahon is a guy that is comfortable being a millionaire when he could be a billionaire.
Anyone who believes probably thought Punk could actually twist people into a knot too.
 

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3,739 Posts
Forever now it feels Vince has an agenda towards doing whatever it takes to prevent or cool off performers the fans love and truly want to see thrive in his company as if he hates the people who keep his product alive outside of the Saudi deal.

Refusal to change for the better(And Money) and just shoehorning his own personal favorites against the fans wishes remains unchanged to this day whether it effects ratings or not, A younger McMahon was no different but he was willing to try a little harder especially with the threat of WCW that gave us the Attitude Era now he's considered out of touch with his own product.

Out of touch would mean he isn't aware of the need for change but I'm not sure he's that blind one bit, People think HHH is best to take the helm and improve the product as a whole but that's pure speculation at this point.

I get it he hates the opinions of fans giving him an idea he didn't originally think of himself but you'd think he'd listen if it meant more money, Something that drives him to do business at all costs let alone the passion.
Just for the sake of discussion, right now who are the fan-driven wrestlers ... the ones we all (or a great majority of us) agree should be getting pushed? Because it seems whenever anyone does catch on, before WWE can de-push them or do anything at least on social media and message boards after about 3 weeks it’s “I’m tired of this guy, he’s terrible, move on.”

I mean literally the minute WWE does give someone who seems popular momentum, I see a reflex reaction that people want to abandon them.

Heck, Bryan is still in a very prominent spot but his heel title run wasn’t over with the same people who were asking him to be pushed. (And I don’t think they could recreate his DB vs. the Authority momentum if they had tried.) AJ was hot with people but they cooled on him IMO not because of booking but because he got stale. Etc.

So tell me who is hot that they aren’t pushing or is being undercut ... and I mean not just “I like him but you like this other person,” but who would the masses get behind?

The post previous to mine mentions Becky and Kofi as wrestlers WWE pushed because fans were behind them, and almost instantly it was “I’m so over that” on this forum.
I'm speaking of the past not just the present overall, They are not just my favorites but they had a huge following at one point or were really over enough to warrant better pushes.

Wade Barrett
Bray Wyatt
Samoa Joe
Asuka
Christian
Dolph Ziggler
Cody Rhodes
Shinsuke Nakamura
Rusev
Sasha Banks
Sami Zayn
Damien Sandow

Just to name a few, You don't have to be on the level Of Daniel Bryan and force their hands to recognize talent in front of you.
What if these wrestlers are boring to the casual fan?

I’ve become more hardcore in the last 2 years, but before that I spent 10 years without watching. Here’s my impression of this list before I became what you’d describe as a hardcore fan:

Nakamura - cool entrance, huge potential. Boring wrestlemania build after the rumble win, so I couldn’t care less for his match. Couldn’t keep my interest because he couldn’t talk.

Wyatt - the Undertaker match was boring, that was my first WM in 10 years and I thought he was just okay. Yeah, his delivery is 10/10 but it’s low IQ nonsense designed to scare 8yos around a campfire.

Dolph - he’s okay, instantly liked his in-ring as he reminded me of Shawn (plus he wore similar pants back then). But he had a dumb name and later I heard his squeaky voice, so I wouldn’t ever get behind him like a Bret Hart / Shawn. Not special.

Rusev - as generic as they come. Boring. I later enjoyed his 2-3 face comedy promos on Raw. Smarks mostly like him because they sympathise with anyone who they perceive as getting “held down” by Vince, and years of watching the boring product forces fans to imagine things differently.

Sandow - boring, normal guy who was funny with the Miz, but clearly had no talent. Vince was later proven 100% right.

Sami Zayn - the taxi driver? Please. A complete joke. Later on he became one of my favourites to watch cutting heel promos, so I like him now... but definitely not someone you push to grow your audience lol.

Sasha Banks - mega star. Loved her from day 1. Was pushed with Charlotte and delivered the GOAT women’s field of all-time (before Becky/Ronda happened). Then she quit.

Cody Rhodes - I actually saw him I Cena or twice when flicking the channels during my 10 years of not watching and you’re right on this one. I thought he looked like a million bucks. I bought him as a potential future mega star, although he did lack a little bit of charisma on the mic and didn’t quite look very larger than life at that age... short hair, normal good looking athletic guy... so I might’ve grown bored quickly.

Christian - LOL. He’s Christian, dude. You’re really reaching here, I saw him for years before I stopped watching and there’s no way he’s a top guy.

Asuka - I really like her, she’s booked appropriately. Not the #1 but clearly a top 5 women’s Wrestler over the past 5 years.

Samoa Joe - he’s okay. I like his deep, scary voice but then he yells. Meh everywhere else. No way is he a top guy.

Wade Barrett - the epitome of boring. Looks like a normal, nice guy who is more athletic than a waiter at a hotel... but that’s it. Boring, boring, boring. And a bit of a whiny geek, so serviceable as a B-grade heel, which he was.
 

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The Babyface of WF
Joined
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12,535 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Forever now it feels Vince has an agenda towards doing whatever it takes to prevent or cool off performers the fans love and truly want to see thrive in his company as if he hates the people who keep his product alive outside of the Saudi deal.

Refusal to change for the better(And Money) and just shoehorning his own personal favorites against the fans wishes remains unchanged to this day whether it effects ratings or not, A younger McMahon was no different but he was willing to try a little harder especially with the threat of WCW that gave us the Attitude Era now he's considered out of touch with his own product.

Out of touch would mean he isn't aware of the need for change but I'm not sure he's that blind one bit, People think HHH is best to take the helm and improve the product as a whole but that's pure speculation at this point.

I get it he hates the opinions of fans giving him an idea he didn't originally think of himself but you'd think he'd listen if it meant more money, Something that drives him to do business at all costs let alone the passion.
Just for the sake of discussion, right now who are the fan-driven wrestlers ... the ones we all (or a great majority of us) agree should be getting pushed? Because it seems whenever anyone does catch on, before WWE can de-push them or do anything at least on social media and message boards after about 3 weeks it’s “I’m tired of this guy, he’s terrible, move on.”

I mean literally the minute WWE does give someone who seems popular momentum, I see a reflex reaction that people want to abandon them.

Heck, Bryan is still in a very prominent spot but his heel title run wasn’t over with the same people who were asking him to be pushed. (And I don’t think they could recreate his DB vs. the Authority momentum if they had tried.) AJ was hot with people but they cooled on him IMO not because of booking but because he got stale. Etc.

So tell me who is hot that they aren’t pushing or is being undercut ... and I mean not just “I like him but you like this other person,” but who would the masses get behind?

The post previous to mine mentions Becky and Kofi as wrestlers WWE pushed because fans were behind them, and almost instantly it was “I’m so over that” on this forum.
I'm speaking of the past not just the present overall, They are not just my favorites but they had a huge following at one point or were really over enough to warrant better pushes.

Wade Barrett
Bray Wyatt
Samoa Joe
Asuka
Christian
Dolph Ziggler
Cody Rhodes
Shinsuke Nakamura
Rusev
Sasha Banks
Sami Zayn
Damien Sandow

Just to name a few, You don't have to be on the level Of Daniel Bryan and force their hands to recognize talent in front of you.
What if these wrestlers are boring to the casual fan?

I’ve become more hardcore in the last 2 years, but before that I spent 10 years without watching. Here’s my impression of this list before I became what you’d describe as a hardcore fan:

Nakamura - cool entrance, huge potential. Boring wrestlemania build after the rumble win, so I couldn’t care less for his match. Couldn’t keep my interest because he couldn’t talk.

Wyatt - the Undertaker match was boring, that was my first WM in 10 years and I thought he was just okay. Yeah, his delivery is 10/10 but it’s low IQ nonsense designed to scare 8yos around a campfire.

Dolph - he’s okay, instantly liked his in-ring as he reminded me of Shawn (plus he wore similar pants back then). But he had a dumb name and later I heard his squeaky voice, so I wouldn’t ever get behind him like a Bret Hart / Shawn. Not special.

Rusev - as generic as they come. Boring. I later enjoyed his 2-3 face comedy promos on Raw. Smarks mostly like him because they sympathise with anyone who they perceive as getting “held down” by Vince, and years of watching the boring product forces fans to imagine things differently.

Sandow - boring, normal guy who was funny with the Miz, but clearly had no talent. Vince was later proven 100% right.

Sami Zayn - the taxi driver? Please. A complete joke. Later on he became one of my favourites to watch cutting heel promos, so I like him now... but definitely not someone you push to grow your audience lol.

Sasha Banks - mega star. Loved her from day 1. Was pushed with Charlotte and delivered the GOAT women’s field of all-time (before Becky/Ronda happened). Then she quit.

Cody Rhodes - I actually saw him I Cena or twice when flicking the channels during my 10 years of not watching and you’re right on this one. I thought he looked like a million bucks. I bought him as a potential future mega star, although he did lack a little bit of charisma on the mic and didn’t quite look very larger than life at that age... short hair, normal good looking athletic guy... so I might’ve grown bored quickly.

Christian - LOL. He’s Christian, dude. You’re really reaching here, I saw him for years before I stopped watching and there’s no way he’s a top guy.

Asuka - I really like her, she’s booked appropriately. Not the #1 but clearly a top 5 women’s Wrestler over the past 5 years.

Samoa Joe - he’s okay. I like his deep, scary voice but then he yells. Meh everywhere else. No way is he a top guy.

Wade Barrett - the epitome of boring. Looks like a normal, nice guy who is more athletic than a waiter at a hotel... but that’s it. Boring, boring, boring. And a bit of a whiny geek, so serviceable as a B-grade heel, which he was.
Now that's what I call a real credible answer, Something most people I see on here lack in spades.

It's fair to say the casuals may or may not have grown on them for long term investment but we will never know how far they could have gone outside of guess work.
 

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Registered
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2,258 Posts
I'm speaking of the past not just the present overall, They are not just my favorites but they had a huge following at one point or were really over enough to warrant better pushes.

Wade Barrett
Bray Wyatt
Samoa Joe
Asuka
Christian
Dolph Ziggler
Cody Rhodes
Shinsuke Nakamura
Rusev
Sasha Banks
Sami Zayn
Damien Sandow

Just to name a few, You don't have to be on the level Of Daniel Bryan and force their hands to recognize talent in front of you.
Another poster did a really good breakdown of this. I’ll comment on a couple:

Nakamura looked like a million bucks in his debut and I’m not sure he’s ever had another really good match. IMO he failed to deliver. And it is hard to make a major deal of someone who doesn’t speak the language (and worse, he cut promos with his mouthpiece in forever, making it impossible to understand him).

Asuka same as far as language barrier.

Christian, he was always Robin to Edge’s Batman. The lesser half of a great team. Got a thank-you title moment and that’s about right to me.

Zayn, Ziggler and Rusev: Good hands, not upper card total package IMO.

Sandow: Comedy act who got TV time every week, but that was his ceiling.

I agree on Cody, Wyatt and Sasha.

I would also say to some degree most of these were pushed at some points. But I don’t think ‘the people like this wrestler’ means you put a rocket on their back and make them the face of the company. None of the above IMO could ever be The Man (with respect to Becky).

And WWE has tried, to varying degrees, to push Bryan, Seth and some others people have been behind to the top or at least the upper echelon (Bryan’s injury issues notwithstanding).

Heck I remember when they first started New Day promos and people liked it for about 2 weeks and then they debuted and it lasted maybe another week and people were calling for them to go away ... yet WWE stuck with them and saw their potential and they were right. I remember when Sheamus and Cesaro had nothing going and they did the best-of-seven and they went to a no-finish and people screamed and shouted ... and the payoff was a great tag team that has had staying power, which is way better than where they were at before.

I’d still like to hear from someone who can name one talent we all agree upon should be given the massive push ... because that’s the real problem — that person doesn’t exist, really. The last one was Bryan and reluctantly or not, WWE did come around. I haven’t seen anyone since who seemed to have that level of overness nor the talent to get to that level.
 

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Premium Member
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The guy is a fucking psychopath who thinks he has the right to tell people who to like and who not to like. from 2014-2017, I had never seen a guy hate his consumers as much as Vince was hating WWE (hardcore) fans, and giving them shit year after year. The fact at one point we had an absent joke champion like Lesnar and the alternative to that for 6 months was Jinder Mahal is a fucking middle finger to everyone.

And yes, many wrestlers who got over organically were eventually buried in deliberate attempt to cool them off.
 

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The real problem with Vince is that he is not creative, like at all! He’s also as stubborn as hell and is such an egomaniac to the point where he believes he’s God and that he’s always right. He will never change his opinion on certain talents or be at least open to new ideas on how to book them in fresh, interesting and exciting ways.

The WWE has seen an influx of top main event calibre talents enter the company over the past few years that fans have been clamouring to see pushed to the highest level yet we’re still stuck with drawn out, boring and awful Shield vs Brock angles that have been done to death regardless of negative fan reactions and dwindling attendance numbers. Even when a talent like Roman Reigns has a chance to be turned heel which the majority of fans have wanted to see because it’s something different, Vince just says no and it’s very frustrating because you can see the potential there for something new but because it’s Vince, he just does what he wants regardless and the fans just have to deal with it.

Yes there are fan driven talents that haven’t been pushed to the extent that some fans want, some have been fair and some definitely not but that’s to be expected as not everyone can be pushed equally. But what’s really telling to me at least is that these talents could be used so much better and given more of an opportunity to shine instead of just being tossed aside.

Nakamura for example was one of the hottest acts to enter the WWE in the last decade and yet he’s been totally squandered. This is partly because Vince just doesn’t like Asian talents but also because he doesn’t have a clue how to create anything new or interesting for him to do. He’ll use the excuse that he can’t cut a promo, that his English isn’t that good and so on. Well if you’re creative you find a way around it! Try booking him differently so he doesn’t have to talk so much or at all, give him a translator, turn him heel or try something, anything to make it work instead of just saying no he’s not good enough.

Punk was the same, a great talent but not utilised in the main event because Vince did not feel that he was a draw yet he didn’t even bother to try him out in that spot to find out if that was the case or not.

Again it’s a complete lack of creativity and vision. There are countless examples of this happening throughout the years.

Vince will always push his chosen personal favourites that he has created himself and everyone else just has to take a back seat. It’s the way it’s always been unfortunately and don’t expect it to change any time soon...
 
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