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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I see this said all the time, and how we're in the "reality era" and as a wrestling fan of 20+ years, I think it is one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever read. Kayfabe was dead 20 years ago. No one was watching WWE vs. WCW thinking "HOW CAN STEVE AUSTIN HIT HIS BOSS LIKE THAT AND NOT GET FIRED???" The fans were always self-aware that it is a show. You pretty much know this by the time you're 8 years old.

Though I keep seeing this shit about how _____ can't do _____ because it isn't believable, or whatever. Or wrestlers themselves constantly doing interviews where they talk about the product of WWE out of character, and I loathe seeing it. Most guys back in the Attitude Era didn't do interviews out of character....they did interviews "out of character". Meaning, they wouldn't directly acknowledge what they were doing was bullshit, they wouldn't "be themselves", they would still be their characters. Like the Rock on TRL, or when all the WWE guys would appear on SNL, they stayed in character.

Look at this for example...

Roman fucking Reigns said:
On "deserving" his spot:

"We have a very strong hardcore fan base and they go in a bit deeper than just what the storyline is. One thing that kind of confuses me is that it is a performance, it is a show, there is a storyline. When people start doing the "He deserves this, He deserves that", really did Brad Pitt deserved to be Achilles in Troy? It's a weird world that we live in; it's very real but very scripted at the same time. It's a fine line and in my opinion that's what makes it so neat."
This infuriated me reading it. This is the dumbest most idiotic fucking response to this question anyone in the WWE can give. When you are asked a question like this, you answer it as Roman Reigns, the WWE superstar. You don't answer it as Roman Reigns, the guy. If someone asked Steve Austin this question at the height of his push or popularity, here's what his response would be:

"Do I deserve my spot? Come ask me to my face if I deserve my spot and I'll kick your fucking teeth in you basement dwelling punk. Fuck you."

CM Punk as well, for as much shit as people like to say about him breaking the fourth wall or "shooting", what they don't comprehend is that it was his gimmick. He loathed people breaking character during interviews, I remember he tweeted what an insult it was when Zeb/Swagger did that shoot on some Fox News guy, completely breaking character from the business. Punk firmly believed in staying in character, and he lived his gimmick, which most of the greats actually do.

Roman Reigns response is that of some clueless, arrogant, green punk who doesn't know what business he is in. And Dolph Ziggler does this shit all the time too. Daniel Bryan, to his credit, always tries to keep in character when he's asked these "reality" questions, and never really gives a "shoot" response. But he's bombarded with them because of the YES movement, and it's hard to balance reality with fiction there.

So let me tell you something about this "reality era" and the "kayfabe is dead" stuff that you kids think you know: It's a crock of shit. It's idiotic bullshit spewed by morons like HHH to justify their shitty fucking creative decisions that are booed out of the building on a weekly basis. Remember WCW? Remember when they tried to bring "reality" to wrestling? Here was the results:

* Russo comes to WCW and believes that all of the fans are constantly reading dirt sheets and he's going to "work them".

* Wrestlers would do "worked shoots" backstage just to try and work their own co-workers off camera.

* Buff Bagwell ran a gimmick where he was "the writers chosen one" and he's going to be written to win all of his fake matches from here out.

* The Hogan/Russo BATB incident.

* Goldberg walking out on his triple threat with Nash/Steiner, because he refuses to take a Jacknife, then Steiner taking the Jacknife and pin while the announcers put him over for being professional enough to do the job.


How's that for reality? How's that for "kayfabe is dead"? WWE is just a few steps away from this level of fucking nonsense. You don't see Bray Wyatt doing these out of character interviews where he talks about booking decisions and who's over and who's deserving. You don't see the Undertaker doing it. The hundred thousand times since last year that people asked about the Streak ending, did the Undertaker himself ever address it to the media? Fuck no he fucking didn't. Because the Undertaker is in the wrestling business, and he's not in the Mark Calloway business.

In closing, kayfabe being dead is a myth. Kayfabe was never really alive, everyone knows what they're watching is a circus performance. What made it special was the wrestlers being committed to their characters, and the booking reflecting that while creating moments. When you sit there telling the audience every day that you're a performer and this is a show, you're making a mockery of your own business and insulting your co workers. When someone on Twitter tells you "You don't deserve your spot!" You don't say you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that, because much like Brad Pitt I was simply cast in this role. You troll them into oblivion about being a loser virgin keyboard warrior.

Commit to your fucking characters, if you want to be an actor go to fucking Hollywood, you're in the wrestling business. And if you're on the internet and you want "reality", then go watch the UFC. Wrestling is wrestling, it isn't the UFC. Trying to be more "real" is the last thing wrestling should be doing, for its sake and for its fans sake.
 

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Stupid IWC Myths Vol 5: Daniel Bryan is a main eventer
 

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Make your own threads you gimmick troll. I don't need you wasting my space.
Stupid IWC Myths Vol 6: Roman Reigns is a bad wrestler
 
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The WWE is breaking the 4th wall, but in a very different way than simply saying that wrestling isn't real. They're doing so by forcing the results beyond most of the fans' ability to suspend disbelief .. hence the weird, apathetic reactions so many stars get these days.

Why did Bryan get the "you deserve it" changes when he was as much a booked champion (on the night of mania i.e.) as anyone else in the company. It's because the WWE despite all its intentions to hold Bryan down ultimately were able to make the right decision in converting all of that real life drama into a great moment in the end.

It was still a booking decision however or a series of booking decisions whose intent may have been anything but still managed to make sense in the end that the underdog hero got the payoff in the end.

That said, my point is that it's not all the stars fault for not having great and believable characters that the audience responds to perfectly every single night as "they should respond to them". It's a combination of the booker's/writers support to that character that helps the audience accept/stomach him/her as a heel or face in this era. You can have worked shoots in this era and people will accept them (Heyman is an example of this), and you can have booking decisions (which fans almost never question) and they will fall flat regardless of the people involved because that booking decision makes no logical sense to the majority ...

And even if it does make logical sense, it is not a result majority people want .... And that's where kayfabe is dead matters so much. Wrestling fans will suspend disbelief to a point and there's no exact science to what that point is. However, when the company repeatedly forces kayfabe and then claims that wrestling is scripted, then they're the ones at fault for creating an aura of entitlement around their results.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The WWE is breaking the 4th wall, but in a very different way than simply saying that wrestling isn't real. They're doing so by forcing the results beyond most of the fans' ability to suspend disbelief .. hence the weird, apathetic reactions so many stars get these days.

Why did Bryan get the "you deserve it" changes when he was as much a booked champion (on the night of mania i.e.) as anyone else in the company. It's because the WWE despite all its intentions to hold Bryan down ultimately were able to make the right decision in converting all of that real life drama into a great moment in the end.

It was still a booking decision however or a series of booking decisions whose intent may have been anything but still managed to make sense in the end that the underdog hero got the payoff in the end.

That said, my point is that it's not all the stars fault for not having great and believable characters that the audience responds to perfectly every single night as "they should respond to them". It's a combination of the booker's/writers support to that character that helps the audience accept/stomach him/her as a heel or face in this era. You can have worked shoots in this era and people will accept them (Heyman is an example of this), and you can have booking decisions (which fans almost never question) and they will fall flat regardless of the people involved because that booking decision makes no logical sense to the majority ...

And even if it does make logical sense, it is not a result majority people want .... And that's where kayfabe is dead matters so much. Wrestling fans will suspend disbelief to a point and there's no exact science to what that point is. However, when the company repeatedly forces kayfabe and then claims that wrestling is scripted, then they're the ones at fault for creating an aura of entitlement around their results.
Heyman's shoots are 100% in Heyman's character. And that's always been Heyman. When he talks about wrestling outside of wrestling, he always talks about it in character. He's always done this, he cut one of the greatest promos ever on Vince during the Invasion for stealing his ideas, and it was genius.

Heyman doesn't come out every week and remind the audience that what they're watching is fake. He comes out every week and promotes his matches unlike anyone can promote their matches. The Dolph Ziggler's of the world could learn from him.
 

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All wrestling fans know to suspend disbelief, but when the shit is too silly to take seriously, that's when kayfabe comes up.

While they expect us to suspend disbelief in regards to finishers, then we see John Cena kick out of multiple ones and shrug them off, it becomes silly and an insult to a fan's intelligence.

These are known as "Nuked the Fridge" moments. This is in reference to Indiana Jones surviving an atomic bomb by hiding in a refrigerator. So named because such an incident is hard to suspend disbelief.

Pushing a guy who is clearly not ready to the top is a Nuke the Fridge moment.

Having established stars act like complete pussies to put a guy over is a Nuke the Fridge moment. Especially as we know it's scripted so they're not really feeling that Superman punch or Spear as much as we're supposed to think. So the interviews where Mark Henry and Rollins talk about how "maybe he can win the title" due to feeling the pain from a beating from him, make no sense at all.
 

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Heyman's shoots are 100% in Heyman's character. And that's always been Heyman. When he talks about wrestling outside of wrestling, he always talks about it in character. He's always done this, he cut one of the greatest promos ever on Vince during the Invasion for stealing his ideas, and it was genius.

Heyman doesn't come out every week and remind the audience that what they're watching is fake. He comes out every week and promotes his matches unlike anyone can promote their matches. The Dolph Ziggler's of the world could learn from him.
You're actually backing up my point with regards to Heyman.

My point is in case you missed it is that the Wrestling fans are a sophisticated audience and they can stomach kayfabe as long as it is believable. What I'm also trying to get across is that recently WWE's booking has not been easy to stomach because they have decided to abandon all sense of logic and reason in it.

I appreciate those wrestlers that stay in character in and out of the WWE more than I appreciate those wrestlers that break character (and yes, you're right, Dolph is an example of someone that breaks kayfabe). Heyman's shoots are all on the line between reality and kayfabe - because no matter what he says, in the end it is still about promoting the upcoming match.

However, the booking results are also a part of that establishment of kayfabe. It's not just about the character-work by the wrestlers.

Take Cesaro for example. He came out looking like a face when he dumped Big Show (a heel) to win the Andre trophy. But, for no reason whatsoever, the WWE saddled him with Heyman. Ok. That's believable. But then they gave the fans 2-3 months of Heyman coming out WITH Cesaro BUT promoting Lesnar instead making Cesaro look like a chump .. That is all booking right there and has nothing to do with kayfabe. That type of booking creates dissonance amongst the fans and eventually they became apathetic to Cesaro which killed his momentum.

Similar booking dissonance was caused by Bryan and Reigns' booking recently. The Rumble is an example of this where they dumped all 3 of the most over fan favourites in such an unceremonious way that it made Reigns a stand out ... BUT instead of making Reigns actually LOOK like a standout, they ended up making it clear that they're the ones breaking the 4th wall by using incredibly cheap and unbelievable tactics to get him over. The unbelievability isn't in Reigns actually winning the Rumble, but in how he won it a) at the expense of stunting the momentum of other faces and b) they themselves acknowledged that they knew Reigns might not get over so lets Rocky over to pass the torch.

It's not the fans fault when the WWE books things to break kayfabe.
 

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i dislike the breaking of kayfabe too.
i think it is funnier if they stay in gimmick.
a lot of people think different and think it is not important to them.
-it brakes the whole sense of watching if the contenders call it themselves a storylined show. i know that but i do not need to hear it by themselves.
magicians do not tell in their interviews that the just do tricks. well some do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
How is this an IWC myth? WWE agrees kayfabe is dead, that's why they allow their performers to talk publicly about the fact wrestling is fake...
WWE does not agree. HHH agrees. Lots of his performers do not. All of his indie boys in NXT, who think he's got their back, wait til they get to the main roster and realize that they have to take a shit on their own craft, and then see how they like him.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
You're actually backing up my point with regards to Heyman.

My point is in case you missed it is that the Wrestling fans are a sophisticated audience and they can stomach kayfabe as long as it is believable. What I'm also trying to get across is that recently WWE's booking has not been easy to stomach because they have decided to abandon all sense of logic and reason in it.

I appreciate those wrestlers that stay in character in and out of the WWE more than I appreciate those wrestlers that break character (and yes, you're right, Dolph is an example of someone that breaks kayfabe). Heyman's shoots are all on the line between reality and kayfabe - because no matter what he says, in the end it is still about promoting the upcoming match.

However, the booking results are also a part of that establishment of kayfabe. It's not just about the character-work by the wrestlers.

Take Cesaro for example. He came out looking like a face when he dumped Big Show (a heel) to win the Andre trophy. But, for no reason whatsoever, the WWE saddled him with Heyman. Ok. That's believable. But then they gave the fans 2-3 months of Heyman coming out WITH Cesaro BUT promoting Lesnar instead making Cesaro look like a chump .. That is all booking right there and has nothing to do with kayfabe. That type of booking creates dissonance amongst the fans and eventually they became apathetic to Cesaro which killed his momentum.

Similar booking dissonance was caused by Bryan and Reigns' booking recently. The Rumble is an example of this where they dumped all 3 of the most over fan favourites in such an unceremonious way that it made Reigns a stand out ... BUT instead of making Reigns actually LOOK like a standout, they ended up making it clear that they're the ones breaking the 4th wall by using incredibly cheap and unbelievable tactics to get him over. The unbelievability isn't in Reigns actually winning the Rumble, but in how he won it a) at the expense of stunting the momentum of other faces and b) they themselves acknowledged that they knew Reigns might not get over so lets Rocky over to pass the torch.

It's not the fans fault when the WWE books things to break kayfabe.
We're not in disagreement. Their booking is this "reality era" booking shit. If so and so gets booed, that's okay because he's just a franchise and this particular city doesn't like that franchise. Bullshit. It's not UFC, and no, it's not the NFL either. Reigns and Cena aren't the Patriots.
 

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WWE does not agree. HHH agrees. Lots of his performers do not. All of his indie boys in NXT, who think he's got their back, wait til they get to the main roster and realize that they have to take a shit on their own craft, and then see how they like him.
What do mean in the bold?
 

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The WWE is breaking the 4th wall, but in a very different way than simply saying that wrestling isn't real. They're doing so by forcing the results beyond most of the fans' ability to suspend disbelief .. hence the weird, apathetic reactions so many stars get these days.

Why did Bryan get the "you deserve it" changes when he was as much a booked champion (on the night of mania i.e.) as anyone else in the company. It's because the WWE despite all its intentions to hold Bryan down ultimately were able to make the right decision in converting all of that real life drama into a great moment in the end.

It was still a booking decision however or a series of booking decisions whose intent may have been anything but still managed to make sense in the end that the underdog hero got the payoff in the end.

That said, my point is that it's not all the stars fault for not having great and believable characters that the audience responds to perfectly every single night as "they should respond to them". It's a combination of the booker's/writers support to that character that helps the audience accept/stomach him/her as a heel or face in this era. You can have worked shoots in this era and people will accept them (Heyman is an example of this), and you can have booking decisions (which fans almost never question) and they will fall flat regardless of the people involved because that booking decision makes no logical sense to the majority ...

And even if it does make logical sense, it is not a result majority people want .... And that's where kayfabe is dead matters so much. Wrestling fans will suspend disbelief to a point and there's no exact science to what that point is. However, when the company repeatedly forces kayfabe and then claims that wrestling is scripted, then they're the ones at fault for creating an aura of entitlement around their results.
YUP! But what if the WWE is turning the fourth wall back into a version of kayfabe. People pissing and moaning about bookings etc still means that we are talking about the business, still interested no matter how many times Bryan gets overlooked etc. Any publicity is good publicity
 

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YUP! But what if the WWE is turning the fourth wall back into a version of kayfabe. People pissing and moaning about bookings etc still means that we are talking about the business, still interested no matter how many times Bryan gets overlooked etc. Any publicity is good publicity
Except if they are, then they're losing business in order to do so ... so it doesn't make sense from that point of view either.

This is unfortunately one of those instances of booking that has hurt their viewership and publicity in a bad way. They've lost 10% of their viewer since last year already and over 30 million in revenue despite all the cost cutting.

If it is an experiment with the intention of helping business then it's a failure. No matter how long term you look, the damage they've done by their recent booking decisions is going to take some time to reverse. I'm all for change and experimentation, but not at the cost of a good product.

I'd rather be fed mountains of kayfabe, then whatever it is the WWE are doing right now.
 

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Except if they are, then they're losing business in order to do so ... so it doesn't make sense from that point of view either.

This is unfortunately one of those instances of booking that has hurt their viewership and publicity in a bad way. They've lost 10% of their viewer since last year already and over 30 million in revenue despite all the cost cutting.

If it is an experiment with the intention of helping business then it's a failure. No matter how long term you look, the damage they've done by their recent booking decisions is going to take some time to reverse. I'm all for change and experimentation, but not at the cost of a good product.

I'd rather be fed mountains of kayfabe, then whatever it is the WWE are doing right now.
Oh yeah 100% but im not saying its a good idea. This is Vince "out of touch" McMahon we are talking about and hes all about driving the company towards a new customer base/viewship by creating the next "best thing" whilst forgetting that if it isnt broken, why change it. Regards income and business yup they have lost that amount but they claim the network has 1 million+ viewers and as a PLC they arent allowed to lie about figures so in one month $9.99x1mil=$9990000 a month(and that doesnt include the fact in the US its $9.99 and uk its £9.99/$14.50 per viewer) so excluding operating costs thats a pretty freaking huge amount of money per month and id like to see the next annual financial report >:)
 
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