[bdon]

But anyways, I enjoyed both the Dog Collar and Kingston matches. They were good matches, but a great match should basically be perfect. The Kingston match was great until they decide to have Kingston fucking tap out in a hardcore match that saw Kingston go through hell. That was inherently stupid and takes away the entire story they were telling.

Hence, it is only a very good match, not great. Great matches leave you not questioning things. Why is a figure four killing Kingston but all of the weaponry didn’t?

 

[Hephaesteus]

If they’re well done. American Pie is great entertainment, but Siskel and Ebert aren’t ranking it highly. Ditto for horror films.

Halloween movie review & film summary (1979) | Roger Ebert
Also scream, air plane and scary movie were all rated 3 out of 4 stars.

Reason why they rate most of the genre ad is cuz they had the wrong idea about them.

 

[bdon]

That doesn't mean genre movies are intrinsically less valuable than "oscar-bait" movies tho.

No, they have their value at the box office, but they are not winning a year end all-encompassing award.

Cody was very good, in spite of my feelings of him shoving himself down everyone’s throat for 4-5 months and damn near chasing away the viewership (along with Jericho and Cassidy), but he didn’t do anything “great”.

 

[zaz102]

That doesn't mean genre movies are intrinsically less valuable than "oscar-bait" movies tho.

Interesting discussion. Its like arguing whats more important critic score vs audience score on rotten tomatos.

 

[bdon]

Halloween movie review & film summary (1979) | Roger Ebert
Also scream, air plane and scary movie were all rated 3 out of 4 stars.

Reason why they rate most of the genre ad is cuz they had the wrong idea about them.

3 out of 4 falls in the line of “good”.

If 75% is “great” then what is 90% and above? Goddamn.

 

[Hephaesteus]

3 out of 4 falls in the line of “good”.

If 75% is “great” then what is 90% and above? Goddamn.

On a 4 star system sure. There's literally no way to get a 90 the only two higher grades you can get is 100 or 87.5.

 

[bdon]

On a 4 star system sure. There's literally no way to get a 90 the only two higher grades you can get is 100 or 87.5.

Again, what is above great? If Cody rHHHodes’ 3.5 star match with Kingston is “great”, what is a Pac/Omega match? What is the parking lot Best Friends vs PnP?

Great is thrown around way too liberally.

 

[RapShepard]

But anyways, I enjoyed both the Dog Collar and Kingston matches. They were good matches, but a great match should basically be perfect. The Kingston match was great until they decide to have Kingston fucking tap out in a hardcore match that saw Kingston go through hell. That was inherently stupid and takes away the entire story they were telling.

Hence, it is only a very good match, not great. Great matches leave you not questioning things. Why is a figure four killing Kingston but all of the weaponry didn’t?

So you'd agree that Kenny vs Moxley couldn't possibly be a great match since it had a couple of illogical moments (sure some botches as well).

Moxley not making the pin after hitting his finisher

Moxley and Omega trading punches in the chairs

Moxley being hit with a microphone being the turning point and not all the other things he went through.

Again, what is above great? If Cody rHHHodes’ 3.5 star match with Kingston is “great”, what is a Pac/Omega match? What is the parking lot Best Friends vs PnP?

Great is thrown around way too liberally.

Shouldn't Omega spending about 2 minutes on the floor, but not getting out, yet Pac got DQ'd be a knock on the match?

Wasn't OC hiding in a trunk and conveniently knew when to come help. Shouldn't that knock it down some?

 

[Thomazbr]

No, they have their value at the box office, but they are not winning a year end all-encompassing award.

Cody was very good, in spite of my feelings of him shoving himself down everyone’s throat for 4-5 months and damn near chasing away the viewership (along with Jericho and Cassidy), but he didn’t do anything “great”.

I repeat, Cody vs Kingston was a great as a match as they come. It really is.
It begun with a killer promo from Kingston, setting up not only the basic no-dq stipulation, but it also set up the theme of the difference of the "grind" between Eddie and Cody. Eddie then uses the match to further that theme by putting Cody through the storm lowering the big babyface to his level:attacking from behind, tearing at the face, lowblows, brawling on the floor and just generally great chops and strikes. Kingston then at the early portions of the match tweaks his legs and then begins to masterfully sell the shit out of that leg. I can't understate how good Eddie is at selling limbs. Look back at the conversation during that match and you will find most people up until the chopblock thought he was injured for real. He has gone on record before that selling is one of his favorite parts of wrestling and honestly most wrestlers should try to find joy into tricking the audience. Cody for his part as a valiant babyface matches Kingston's brawling with some pretty decent strikes of his own, but also works the leg of the bad guy and now it's a test to know who of those two have in them to survive the grind. When Cody finally goes through the thumbthacks and pops up to hit a hard lariat and then taps Eddie to figure four he proves Kingston wrong to the world as he went through the grinder and emerged victorious against the veteran brawler.

I dunno man, it told a great story, it had great pacing and it was executed pretty perfectly from both parties.

Now, am I a Kingston mark? absolutely. This match in question is the only reason why I watch AEW in the first place. I heard about Eddie making the debut and then I tuned in(in a illegal stream), watch him deliver a great match with a VERY giving cody, two hot promos and then being signed and contiunously be given a platform to be entertaining as fuck on a weekly basis. I've written before that I watch for Eddie Kingston, and if people around him are good that's just a bonuses, so I'm absolutely biased in that question.
However I do think that was a very strong match. It was good as they come. There is more than one style of pro wrestling and a match with very different athletes and very different stakes can still be great.

 

[Hephaesteus]

Again, what is above great? If Cody rHHHodes’ 3.5 star match with Kingston is “great”, what is a Pac/Omega match? What is the parking lot Best Friends vs PnP?

Great is thrown around way too liberally.

If ebert was giving grades above the rating scale like meltzer actually does id agree, but since he follows his strictly...

 

[Thomazbr]

That being said, Cody vs Kingston was more of a Kingston match than a Cody one, so it's no wonder he is top 10 above Cody.

Eddie's da bomb

 

[VIP86]

Then explain to me how sasha vs bayley trumped roman vs jey and mcintire vs orton hiac matches which all happened on the same night. Even if you dont agree on the quality, it was clearly the one with the most athleticism and most brutality. If you want to argue that most women aren't willing to put their bodies through the true rigors of wrestling, fair argument. If you want to argue that its not as worth it money wise due to the pregnancy issue, another fair argument. It's even fair to say that females wont get color on purpose in matches cuz no one wants to see that. Id still argue that with enough freedom, exposure and experience that the best female in wrestling can wrestle just as well as the best male in wrestling.

through training and experience the skill level can improve to a certain point
a point where they will hit a big hurdle, the physical limitation of a female body

yes women are willing to put their bodys on the line, we see this all the time
but let's not pretend that the physical side of wrestling is just secondary
some skills require speed and strength to be executed in a believable way
take a look at women matches
is the Speed the same ?
is the strength the same ?
is the stamina the same ?

saying wrestling is not a real sport just because we want to make an excuse for women, is not going to work
wrestling has predetermined results, but the physicality level is higher than some "legitimate" sports
so this argument is not valid

i want women wrestling to continue to improve more and more
but i'm not going to overlook facts and make silly comparisons for the sake of a social agenda

 

[Thomazbr]

I don't like woman wrestling so to me it's silly but this is really whatever.

 

[bdon]

So you'd agree that Kenny vs Moxley couldn't possibly be a great match since it had a couple of illogical moments (sure some botches as well).

Moxley not making the pin after hitting his finisher

Moxley and Omega trading punches in the chairs

Moxley being hit with a microphone being the turning point and not all the other things he went through.

Absolutely. The match was only very good as it did not need to be the banger they will have next time at a PPV. It was a very good match with a fire ending.

We will always disagree about the microphone shot. Lol

 

[AthleticGirth]

Drew, Mox, Asuka, Shirai, Orton and Ibushi had outstanding 2020s, they're the top 6. Bayley was Ms consistency, Cody established a belt, both Omega and Roman turned heel and flipped the switch.

No room for botching Banks in my top 10.

 

[RapShepard]

through training and experience the skill level can improve to a certain point
a point where they will hit a big hurdle, the physical limitation of a female body

yes women are willing to put their bodys on the line, we see this all the time
but let's not pretend that the physical side of wrestling is just secondary
some skills require speed and strength to be executed in a believable way
take a look at women matches
is the Speed the same ?
is the strength the same ?
is the stamina the same ?

saying wrestling is not a real sport just because we want to make an excuse for women, is not going to work
wrestling has predetermined results, but the physicality level is higher than some "legitimate" sports
so this argument is not valid

i want women wrestling to continue to improve more and more
but i'm not going to overlook facts and make silly comparisons for the sake of a social agenda

There's no social agenda though. You're just using some arbitrary rubric that doesn't really hold up in a fake sport. Sure there's no woman that can do a 630 splash like Ricochet or can do a feat of strength move like Braun. That doesn't mean they can't have the best match on a given night.

You look at women's MMA and a women's Strawweight title fight between Zhang Weili and Joanna Jedrzejczyk got fight of the year from most sites either publications or fan votes and if it wasn't 1 it was top 5. Neither woman is as athletic as most top men's fighters. But that doesn't really matter. Great is great.

 

[VIP86]

There's no social agenda though. You're just using some arbitrary rubric that doesn't really hold up in a fake sport. Sure there's no woman that can do a 630 splash like Ricochet or can do a feat of strength move like Braun. That doesn't mean they can't have the best match on a given night.

You look at women's MMA and a women's Strawweight title fight between Zhang Weili and Joanna Jedrzejczyk got fight of the year from most sites either publications or fan votes and if it wasn't 1 it was top 5. Neither woman is as athletic as most top men's fighters. But that doesn't really matter. Great is great.

nope, that idiot of a journalist wanted to score some points because they all have social agendas
WWE women revolution ? are they kidding me
WWE wanted to capitalise on the ongoing social agenda, you can't possibly convince me otherwise
if you're a fan of women wrestling that's perfectly fine, but they sure not at the same level

how about we make a poll and ask the wrestling fans if they think women wrestling is as good as the men's
what do you think the answer would be ?

since you think the 4 horsewomen are as big of a draw as the men
let's ask the wrestling fans, who would they prefer to pay to see ?

here is a spoiler for both answers
it's not even a competition (inside the ring or in the ticket booth) and you know that very well

 

[Dickhead1990]

who would you put in their places? 2 of them were involved in one of the biggest feuds of the year. The other had a breakout year



Well yeah he's doing work that is being highly praised, should he not be properly credited for that?

For the first point, AJ Styles deserves to be in there. Sasha and Bailey were obviously in a much bigger league than Eddie Kingston, who only really appeared for the latter half of it to do anything worthwhile. I would put Cody ahead of him in all honesty.

That's fair, I just feel that he spent at least half of the year not being terribly good.

 

[Pentagon Senior]

Would AJ Styles and Daniel Bryan have made the list if they were AEW? Seems mad two wrestlers of that calibre not featuring.

Kingston had a good break out year but Cody had a very good year overall, for me, and should be there ahead of him.

I think women's wrestling has it's place on the card and I don't really compare it v men. Like, they're wrestling other women so it's a different backdrop. Got no issue with Sasha topping it if she performed well (including storyline and character-wise) within her own parameters.

Lastly, terms like 'good' and 'great' are subjective and mean different things to different fans. So you're all right, haha.

 

[RapShepard]

nope, that idiot of a journalist wanted to score some points because they all have social agendas
WWE women revolution ? are they kidding me
WWE wanted to capitalise on the ongoing social agenda, you can't possibly convince me otherwise
if you're a fan of women wrestling that's perfectly fine, but they sure not at the same level

how about we make a poll and ask the wrestling fans if they think women wrestling is as good as the men's
what do you think the answer would be ?

since you think the 4 horsewomen are as big of a draw as the men
let's ask the wrestling fans, who would they prefer to pay to see ?

here is a spoiler for both answers
it's not even a competition (inside the ring or in the ticket booth) and you know that very well

But even fans voted for the female fight

MMA's Best Fights of the Year 2020 | Tapology MMA Rankings

What are 2020's Best Fights? Tapology member rankings let you decide.

www.tapology.com

You want to argue that typically speaking men are more athletic than women, sure you're definitely right there. But wrestling isn't just about being athletic. It can help for sure, but it's not the end all be all in what draws people into matches or what makes them memorable.

Also as much as it's going to hurt to hear it the 4 Horsewomen are bigger stars with bigger followings than the NJPW men you named. If you asked wrestling fans as a whole they'd go with the Horsewomen