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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am pretty new to wrestling, got into it about a year
ago as my partner is wrestling mad and I was wondering
your thoughts on whether a heel should ever pin a face
clean? Surely when this happens the face looks weak?

Discuss
 

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There's nothing wrong with the heel winning clean if the heel is credible. Roode, being the champion, should be able to beat anybody, in theory at least. Losing cleanly to a world champion in no way makes someone look weak if it's done right.
 

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Yes. Winning cleanly establishes credibilty.

Too bad TNA has a tendency to overbook things way too often.
 

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i beeen watching wrestling since like 92 off n on... and i HATE that the heels ALWAYS have to cheat. All the sudden when people turn face.. they have more power?! It just seems so 1980s to me. These wrestling companies dont understand that it would give somebody a lot more "heat" if a face WE the fans dislike wins cleanly.. but in a way the face doesnt look like a complete pussy either.
 

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Yes. But it depends on the heel and the face. And what you're trying to accomplish.

Randy Orton frequently won clean during his last heel run for instance and it didn't destroy the guys he beat's credibility.

Bobby Roode beating say Ken Anderson clean isn't a problem. He's the promotion's top wrestler at the moment. But let's go with Bully Ray shouldn't be beating James Storm clean.
 

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I would say so. Adds to the unpredictability of the sport. Angle was winning cleanly as a heel, as was Aries over the last 6/7 months.
 

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Yes, in the main event at a PPV.
Yes, always in the mid card, unless it is some kind of ongoing feud,
or part of a guys Gimmick.
When every heel cheats, every time, it ruins the shock factor.
 

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Sometimes but not always and not often. Ric Flair is considered one of the great heels of all time and he would constantly be almost losing or cheating to win. Hell that was the big reason behind the greatest stable of all-time the 4 Horsemen.
 

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If you want a good, truly hated heel who will elevate your faces and provide exciting television, clean wins should be kept to a minimum. Heels are the polar opposites of faces. Whereas a streak of clean wins helps the face, too many clean wins for a heel hurts his effectiveness. "Establishing creditability" should not even be considered for most heels. Their shtick is to win at any cost, and with the least amount of effort possible. At no point are you, as a viewer, supposed to think that the heel should win in a fair fight. That defeats the purpose of a heel. Triple H and Gail Kim provide great examples of what happens when a heel gains too many victories and becomes a "dominant" heel. Often, the only person who comes out looking good is the heel, as the fans usually lose interest and all the faces end up looking weak. Now, well-written and well-thought-out storylines can certainly switch up the standard, but to be completely honest, the writers of today simply don't have the desire to present new ways of booking heels, so it's best if we just stick to the old tried-and-true method: Heels cheat to win.

(And as for Roode, why are people so freaking concerned about him winning clean? His entire character is built around the concept "by any means necessary." He's basically Rated-R Edge/JBL rolled into one complete package: Why take the chance of losing by fighting fair when you can assure victory by cheating? Honestly, that attitude is what makes his character interesting.)
 

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well yeah, how stupid would it be if every single time a heel won a match it was by cheating, getting DQed etc. of course heels should be able to pin faces clean
 

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Of course it is. The heel should win against the faces sometimes to get credibility. I prefer to have a heel champion cheat his way in big matches but he should be able to destroy midcarders. Afterall, theres a reason why he's the champ
 

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Heels can go over faces clean when the heel is a level above the face but if they're on the same level and you're not looking to elevate the heel higher then no, have him win dirty to keep the heat between the 2 so the face can get his own back down the line.
 

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It's a bit of a vague question you're asking. I mean it's entirely dependant on the circumstances surrounding the heel. What kind of heel are they? What is the storyline they are in focused around? Who is the Heel facing? etc.

For instance Bobby Roode. He shouldn't be beating faces clean because it ruins what they've built for him. Which is a guy desperate to hold on to that title and willing to do anything to keep it.

For someone like say Mark Henry; beating faces clean was important because they were building him up as a monster.

Also it depends on the face. A top face should be less likely to lose against a heel than a midcard face.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
It's a bit of a vague question you're asking. I mean it's entirely dependant on the circumstances surrounding the heel. What kind of heel are they? What is the storyline they are in focused around? Who is the Heel facing? etc.

For instance Bobby Roode. He shouldn't be beating faces clean because it ruins what they've built for him. Which is a guy desperate to hold on to that title and willing to do anything to keep it.

For someone like say Mark Henry; beating faces clean was important because they were building him up as a monster.

Also it depends on the face. A top face should be less likely to lose against a heel than a midcard face.
Well for example, lets say AJ Styles or Kurt Angle vs Roode - Roode wins cleanly, surely would that make AJ or Kurt look weak?
 

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Well for example, lets say AJ Styles or Kurt Angle vs Roode - Roode wins cleanly, surely would that make AJ or Kurt look weak?

If Roode were to do that currently; then yes. Because they've made Roode have to cheat in order to win by having AJ or Angle lose then it makes them look weaker than everyone Roode had to cheat in order to beat.
 

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Wrestling is scripted and a heel cheated to win (using heel tactics) makes sense. However people saying that not winning clean lessens the heels credibility is utter ridiculous.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Wrestling is scripted and a heel cheated to win (using heel tactics) makes sense. However people saying that not winning clean lessens the heels credibility is utter ridiculous.
I understand that but surely when the heel wins clean, the face looks weak?
 

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A top level heel should go over a lower level heel cleanly, but when they are on the same level or trying to elevate one or the other then the heel should cheat. Also sort of depends on the type of heel. Monster Heels should go over cleanly in most cases even when they are facing main event faces.
 
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