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Stopping The Show
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Discussion Starter #1
I dont understand this thinking at all.......

When people talk about the guys who should be named in the top 5 greatest of all time.... Bret Hart is mentioned in with the likes of Austin,Taker,Rock,Hogan and HBK but the guy left the company at the end of the 90s and as great a technician as he was and had some fantastic mathches and moments... Shawn Michaels was there doing the exact same thing!.

He was putting on as good matches if not sometimes better.... his promos with dx were better imo and was better on the mic.....

So by 98 i would say both were on eqaul terms of greatness ???? yet HBK came back aafter 4 years injured and continued to put on top qaulity stuff right up until last year.... yet is still getting put in the same league as Bret ?????? how is this even happening when both men and most will agree were eqaul in greatness by the end of 98 and HBK has wreslted another 8-9 years on top of that when Bret wasnt.... and he is still on the same level?.

This might seem like a Rant at Bret but it aint..he is in my top 5 of all time... but from an unbiased pov it makes no sense.

I can understand Autin being in that league for impact and star power alone.... same with Rock and obv Hogan....

But Hart wasnt in that League he was in Shawns league in terms of Star power and Drawing...So Discuss....
 

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I think this post underscores one thing about wrestling fans, and maybe men in general: we rely WAY too much on lists to do our thinking for us.

Who cares who ranks who as Top 5, 10, 20, whatever? If you think Shawn and Bret are on the same level, it's a done deal, to hell with what anyone else thinks.
 

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Stopping The Show
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Discussion Starter #3
I think this post underscores one thing about wrestling fans, and maybe men in general: we rely WAY too much on lists to do our thinking for us.

Who cares who ranks who as Top 5, 10, 20, whatever? If you think Shawn and Bret are on the same level, it's a done deal, to hell with what anyone else thinks.
im not saying its influencing my opinion i just dont see the logic behind it man...

Its basically as simple as.....

Babe Ruth A and Babe Ruth B playing together from 90-99 and scoring the same amount of points and being equal in every way but Babe Ruth B gets injured and never plays again.... But Babe Ruth A goes on too double his points in a career that last another 10 years..... yet both get treated still as equals at the end of there careers.?
 

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When people talk about the guys who should be named in the top 5 greatest of all time.... Bret Hart is mentioned in with the likes of Austin,Taker,Rock,Hogan and HBK but the guy left the company at the end of the 90s and as great a technician as he was and had some fantastic mathches and moments... Shawn Michaels was there doing the exact same thing!.
Leaving the WWE does not disqualify someone from being one of the greatest of all time, especially since he wrestled after. Besides that, you do realize he was with the WWE since 1984? He was an amazing workhorse before even his IC run. Shawn had more years than him but because of extenuating circumstances (health) but it was a long run in the wrestling business regardless and doesn't take away anything. Also it isn't fair comparing them by year because Bret is almost a decade older.
 

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Stopping The Show
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Discussion Starter #5
Leaving the WWE does not disqualify someone from being one of the greatest of all time, especially since he wrestled after. Besides that, you do realize he was with the WWE since 1984? He was an amazing workhorse before even his IC run.
i never said is disqaulifies him.... it just means his legendary status within that company stops at that point as he doesnt contribute anything else in that company after that point unless we class his return and the few matches he had.... yes im aware of his time scale and how hard he worked as i said he is in my personal top 5......

But both men came up together at the same time.... both were eqauls... hart tag being more impactful than the rockers but when they both split free into there singles run... they both were on a level par and in some ways i think hbk was slightly greater but i can see why up until they both left the company 97 n 98 that theyre were equal in legends status..... but Shawn came back and repeated everuthing he did before his injury and some say he was even better..... that is where i cant under stanf how they still get put on the same level when one guy got off the boat and the other guy kept going for another ten years putting on the same qaulity as he always did.

Bret still going over in Wcw dont count as this is a WWE greatest list im talking about and even then it was short lived in comparison to HBKs career.... so again how can they be treatede as eqauls after 98.
 

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Bret still going over in Wcw dont count as this is a WWE greatest list im talking about and even then it was short lived in comparison to HBKs career.... so again how can they be treatede as eqauls after 98.
That's a lot different than what it sounded like you implied, you didn't make a mention of it being WWE only (just because his character was booked awful in wcw does not mean he wasn't still having great matches, and he had a better pre-wwf career and better wwf career up until he left). When you said greatest of all time I thought you meant greatest of all time. In that case, yes HBK contributed a lot more to the WWE and should rank ahead of Bret. If Bret had stayed and if he hadn't had a stroke, he would have contributed just as much. But when you're talking about greatness, if you're talking about wrestling ability, I say Bret above HBK and number of years don't affect that argument. It all depends on what you classify as great.
 

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Stopping The Show
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Discussion Starter #7
That's a lot different than what it sounded like you implied, you didn't make a mention of it being WWE only. When you said greatest of all time I thought you meant greatest of all time. In that case, yes HBK contributed a lot more to the WWE and should rank ahead of Bret. If Bret had stayed and if he hadn't had a stroke, hew would have contributed just as much . But when you're talking about greatness, if you're talking about wrestling ability, I say Bret above HBK and number of years don't affect that argument. It all depends on what you classify as great.
but even going with the argument of just in wrestling businessi n general and taking into account everything in wrestling entertainment.... Shawn is still ahead of Bret in every department bar technical ability.... Both were in the business about the same amount of years taking into account injurys and retirements.... I can totally agree if this was a GOAT in pure wrestling but most of these lists i see pop up are... GOAT in the WWE or Wrestling as a whole.
 

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Shawn put on some of the greatest matches after he came back from injury. But it would be foolish to argue that he was better after the injury. He was a more intelligent wrestler after he cut down on the high flying moves a bit. I really hated to see him using those stupid chops whereas i dont remember him chopping people before he got injured. Coming to your point, if anything shawn michaels is rated ahead of bret by most people, so you can keep your worries aside.
I dont see this thread running into too many pages as this basically is a comparison thread and one of the moderators is going to close it down soon.
 

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What?
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I think Bret's work is massively over-rated. Sure he was a brilliant ring technician and that's all well and good but when it came to being entertaining I feel he sorely lacked the tools needed to be considered the greatest of all time. I happen to agree with the OP, the length of their respective careers aside I still think HBK while not being as technically sound as Bret still put on phenomenal matches because of his natural charisma and presence, he was farrrrr better on the mic and had a more important career than Bret at the end of the day. Not to mention HBK was an innovator with the ladder match etc.

Edit: I don't really have a problem with the thread as it stands but I'll keep an eye on it in case it gets out of control.
 

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The Sundance Kid
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I think Bret's work is massively over-rated. Sure he was a brilliant ring technician and that's all well and good but when it came to being entertaining I feel he sorely lacked the tools needed to be considered the greatest of all time. I happen to agree with the OP, the length of their respective careers aside I still think HBK while not being as technically sound as Bret still put on phenomenal matches because of his natural charisma and presence, he was farrrrr better on the mic and had a more important career than Bret at the end of the day.
Bret Hart was more than just an amazing ring technician, he also had great ring psychology, the man knew how to tell a story inside that squared circle better than anyone else. As far as mic skills, I really don't think HBK was very good on the mic at all. Neither was Bret, although Bret's promos in 1997 are some of my favorites of all time.

Not to mention HBK was an innovator with the ladder match etc.
Bret Hart pitched the idea of the first ladder match in WWE, not Shawn Michaels. Stampede Wrestling had a ladder match in the 70s and in the 80s, that one involving Bret Hart.

They should be put on the same level. Absolutely. Personally I prefer Bret Hart, but that's just me.
 

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Bret and HBK are equals IMO. They were both big and THE top guys in the same period and big stars, peak/peak Bret was bigger worldwide but Shawn was drawing record numbers when he got the belt before the nWo angle. In terms of matches/moments, both had plenty of classic and memorable(Hart/Michaels are top 10 in the ring, maybe even top 5, but I would never put them above the two best ever Angle and Benoit). On the mic, HBK. Bret was great and played his character better than almost anyone in wrestling history, and like he proved in WCW and his 97 work, he can cut a money, all-time memorable promo. In terms of position, they're closing my top 10 along with Sting.
 

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But both men came up together at the same time.... both were eqauls... hart tag being more impactful than the rockers but when they both split free into there singles run... they both were on a level par and in some ways i think hbk was slightly greater
I disagree with this Sir. Take the early 90s for example.

Exhibit A
Summerslam 90:

The Hart Foundation defeat Demolition in an awesome 2/3 falls match to win the titles, crowd goes insane.

Shawn and Marty get squashed by Power and Glory in 6 minutes.

Summerslam 1991:

Bret v Perfect for the IC title is regarded as one of the greatest matches of all time, arguably the greatest Intercontinental match of all time. Crowd explodes when Hart wins.

Shawn is not on the card.


Summerslam 92:

Bret is given the main event with hometown hero Davey Boy Smith in Wembley Stadium in front of 80+ thousand fans. Bret basically carries Davey and puts him over in an epic match rivalling the greatest matches of all time. After the match, Macho Man, Ric Flair, and Shawn himself tell Bret it's the greatest match they've ever seen.

Shawn has an entertaining lower card 'don't hit me in the face' match with The Model Rick Martel.


Get the picture? Shawn was nowhere near the status of Bret or arguably had the talent Bret did early on in the 90s.
 

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I disagree with this Sir. Take the early 90s for example.

Exhibit A
Summerslam 90:

The Hart Foundation defeat Demolition in an awesome 2/3 falls match to win the titles, crowd goes insane.

Shawn and Marty get squashed by Power and Glory in 6 minutes.

Summerslam 1991:

Bret v Perfect for the IC title is regarded as one of the greatest matches of all time, arguably the greatest Intercontinental match of all time. Crowd explodes when Hart wins.

Shawn is not on the card.


Summerslam 92:

Bret is given the main event with hometown hero Davey Boy Smith in Wembley Stadium in front of 80+ thousand fans. Bret basically carries Davey and puts him over in an epic match rivalling the greatest matches of all time. After the match, Macho Man, Ric Flair, and Shawn himself tell Bret it's the greatest match they've ever seen.

Shawn has an entertaining lower card 'don't hit me in the face' match with The Model Rick Martel.


Get the picture? Shawn was nowhere near the status of Bret or arguably had the talent Bret did early on in the 90s.
So because Bret was pushed before HBK, despite Shawn being just as successful, you're saying he's not equal with Bret and didn't have the talent Bret did in the early 90s?

I got them right there together. Rockers beat the Hart Foundation for the belts in 1990. And for the better part of 5 years, their paths would always cross and HBK, for the second time in 6 years, was booked to defeat Bret for a belt.

It's not a question of whether Shawn had the talent Bret had, he just didn't get to properly showcase it till late 92/early 1993. And if you're not booked to appear a certain way, how can you appear that way?

And besides, based on the way their careers took off and what they have done, those 2 are at the same level, always have been and that's what made the Montreal Screwjob more interesting.
 

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Stopping The Show
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Discussion Starter #14
Bret and HBK are equals IMO. They were both big and THE top guys in the same period and big stars, peak/peak Bret was bigger worldwide but Shawn was drawing record numbers when he got the belt before the nWo angle. In terms of matches/moments, both had plenty of classic and memorable(Hart/Michaels are top 10 in the ring, maybe even top 5, but I would never put them above the two best ever Angle and Benoit). On the mic, HBK. Bret was great and played his character better than almost anyone in wrestling history, and like he proved in WCW and his 97 work, he can cut a money, all-time memorable promo. In terms of position, they're closing my top 10 along with Sting.
yes and that it why i making my point.... you have both Shawn and Bret as Equals at the end of there 90s runs.... yet HBK came back and then put on another 10 years wortt of the same top notch matches and promos.... yet he is still looked upon as equal to bret ????? how can that be possible


Shawn 90>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>97
Bret 90>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>97

both guys were looked as equal greatness if they never returned would both would have got mentioned at the same level.

Shawn 2002>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2011

Shawn Came back and added to his legendary status with all those years of fantastic show stealing matches and moment.s

Yet he is still on par with bret as a legend....

How is this possible is what im asking.
 

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Bret Hart was the guy that carried the company through the dark ages and the immediate post Hogan era. He was the shining star on a show that didn't offer a whole heck of a lot. What he sold better than anyone else was wrestling. From 92-95, Bret Hart's matches were unparalleled and his body of work speaks for itself. Its a shame he didn't have a better creative system to back him up or big stars from the previous era like Hogan & Savage to work with to really help him out.

For a while, it was pretty much just him, Taker, Shawn, Razor, and whoever they were working with (and even they weren't always great). Diesel held the belt for a year and was a disaster and both Bret & Shawn had to help fix things after that.

Does Bret deserve to be mentioned among the best of the best? I think so. Had it not been for the efforts of him, Shawn, & Taker, I seriously doubt the WWF would have lasted long enough to even hit The Attitude Era.
 

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yes and that it why i making my point.... you have both Shawn and Bret as Equals at the end of there 90s runs.... yet HBK came back and then put on another 10 years wortt of the same top notch matches and promos.... yet he is still looked upon as equal to bret ????? how can that be possible


Shawn 90>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>97
Bret 90>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>97

both guys were looked as equal greatness if they never returned would both would have got mentioned at the same level.

Shawn 2002>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2011

Shawn Came back and added to his legendary status with all those years of fantastic show stealing matches and moment.s

Yet he is still on par with bret as a legend....

How is this possible is what im asking.
Agreed.

In regards anything prior to 2001 and Shawn cleaning up people had a hard time being objective about his work as they would attack the first stage of his career as he was such a prick and his reputation was so bad during and after it.
 

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Bret Hart was the guy that carried the company through the dark ages and the immediate post Hogan era. He was the shining star on a show that didn't offer a whole heck of a lot. What he sold better than anyone else was wrestling. From 92-95, Bret Hart's matches were unparalleled and his body of work speaks for itself. Its a shame he didn't have a better creative system to back him up or big stars from the previous era like Hogan & Savage to work with to really help him out.

For a while, it was pretty much just him, Taker, Shawn, Razor, and whoever they were working with (and even they weren't always great). Diesel held the belt for a year and was a disaster and both Bret & Shawn had to help fix things after that.

Does Bret deserve to be mentioned among the best of the best? I think so. Had it not been for the efforts of him, Shawn, & Taker, I seriously doubt the WWF would have lasted long enough to even hit The Attitude Era.
There is your answer hart break kid
 

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Stopping The Show
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Discussion Starter #18
There is your answer hart break kid
it asnwers why Bret gets his legendary status and i agree with it... as i said i have him in my personal top 5.... but at the same time bret was doing all that Shawn was reinvigorating the IC title.... having the best matches on the night and innovating with his style in the ring and also with his mic work and promos...DX laid the foundations for the AE soooooo as i have said repeatedly at the end of both there runs aropund 98 they were to me and most on an equal level in terms of greatness/legend status.

Shawn Came back and repeated it all again at the same Quality and level as before... yet hasnt broke away from the same level as bret.....
 

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Best there ever will be..
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Bret and HBK are equals IMO. They were both big and THE top guys in the same period and big stars, peak/peak Bret was bigger worldwide but Shawn was drawing record numbers when he got the belt before the nWo angle. In terms of matches/moments, both had plenty of classic and memorable(Hart/Michaels are top 10 in the ring, maybe even top 5, but I would never put them above the two best ever Angle and Benoit). On the mic, HBK. Bret was great and played his character better than almost anyone in wrestling history, and like he proved in WCW and his 97 work, he can cut a money, all-time memorable promo. In terms of position, they're closing my top 10 along with Sting.
Great post.

I have Bret ahead of HBK, but it's not by a whole lot. Bret's mic skills are underrated. He cut one of the best, if not the best, heel promos of all time and it didn't need cheap heat either.
 

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yes and that it why i making my point.... you have both Shawn and Bret as Equals at the end of there 90s runs.... yet HBK came back and then put on another 10 years wortt of the same top notch matches and promos.... yet he is still looked upon as equal to bret ????? how can that be possible


Shawn 90>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>97
Bret 90>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>97

both guys were looked as equal greatness if they never returned would both would have got mentioned at the same level.

Shawn 2002>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2011

Shawn Came back and added to his legendary status with all those years of fantastic show stealing matches and moment.s

Yet he is still on par with bret as a legend....

How is this possible is what im asking.
I get what your saying, but I guess people don't use that logic because its a little bit unfair to Bret.

Due to his fallout with Vince and his injury, Bret wasn't' able to return and start wrestling every week again like Shawn.

I tend to base legendary status on talent and the impact they had on the business, and I think they are pretty much equal in those areas.
 
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