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Ramble On
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Discussion Starter #1
I have been here for a while now, but this is the first thread i have ever started, mainly because i have never felt the need to, but there has been something recently thats been bugging me. I was watching some recent ROH shows and there seems to be a lack of any emotion or passion coming from the crowd.

I remember when i first started getting in to ROH and indy wrestling, one of the things that made it cool to me was the rabid fans. I mean, look at whenever the title changed hands, whether it was Joe vs Aries, Aries vs Punk, Punk losing to Gibson and when Dragon finaly won the belt, the pops where crazy. Compare that to now and when, say, Tyler won the belt, there was a pretty good pop for it but not near what it should of been for a guy that had been built up and then finaly won the belt.

But its not only title matches, look at the latest shows from ROH such as salvation. The KOW/GenMe match and the Tyler/Steen match generated hardly anything from the crowd, if these took place a few years ago, the crowd would of been on fire, especialy for the main event with both men bleeding, a table spot, Kicking out of finishers etc.

I know the iPPV's always seem to get good crowds, but is it because of these PPV's that the fans at normal shows are so quiet, because they think the shows are less important therfore they wont see anything big happen? Is it the new booking? Is it the new wrestlers in the main event? Or is it becaause there are more family's with children going to the events?

I watched Chris hero vs Tozawa from PWG BOLA 2010 the other day, and the crowd was INSANE, and i thought to my self, this is what ROH crowds used to be like.
 

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I just started watching Scramble Cage Melee last night (as part of my watch every ROH show ever project), and the crowd is about twenty times hotter for Jimmy Rave vs. Angeldust than the crowd at Salvation was for the Kings of Wrestling vs. the Young Bucks. That really says it all right there. Even as recently as 2009 the crowds were generally pretty hot. I guess the switch in production might have hurt it for the DVDs.
 

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its 2010, the best guys are getting scooped up by WWE and TNA, ROH is losing support, losing investment, losing money and the indy scene as a whole is drying up thanks to mma so ROH cant keep up the standards set by previous years not to mention that it has been very demoralising in the industry these last 5 years thanks to the deaths and neither TNA or ROH taking a serious whack at "raising the bar" for the industry so the roh wrestlers are willing to phone it in whenever they can much unlike the first 5 years of ROH, there's nothing original left in ROH, indy wrestling isn't cool anymore its more depressing and sad, the whole western scene is just giving up little by little and besides Lucha Libre and Puroetsu shows are more appealing to the eye nowadays what with sizeable arenas and actual production values
 

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its 2010, the best guys are getting scooped up by WWE and TNA, ROH is losing support, losing investment, losing money and the indy scene as a whole is drying up thanks to mma so ROH cant keep up the standards set by previous years not to mention that it has been very moralising in the industry these last 5 years thanks to the deaths and neither TNA or ROH taking a serious whack at "raising the bar" for the industry so the roh wrestlers are willing to phone it in whenever they can much unlike the first 5 years of ROH, there's nothing original left in ROH, indy wrestling isn't cool anymore its more depressing and sad, the whole western scene is just giving up little by little and besides Lucha Libre and Puroetsu shows are more appealing to the eye nowadays what with sizeable arenas and actual production values
the truth.

its sad though.
 

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I wish everyone could truly appreciate good pro wrestling, just like the Japanese fans do. At least Danielson is proof that you can still please people with wrestling, even in WWE.
 

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Is a Snit Head
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I generally don't buy any shows that don't take place in New York or are on iPPV so I really can't comment on them. All I know is that the shows that I go to in NYC have pretty hot crowds (or at least I feel like they do when I'm there).
 

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New York is always hot, same goes for Chicago and Toronto (Mississauga is different for some reason). New York just tends to have more douche bag fans per crowd than Chicago or Toronto, although Toronto is close with the "Fuck You, Queero!" guy and the screaming Vicki Guerreroesque chick who needs to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down. Chicago and maybe Osaka have the worlds best crowds, I think it's Osaka anyway.
 

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They don't really do a good job of making people feel like the shows matter. People just expect iPPV's and NYC shows to be really good. Everything else they don't really hype up so why should the fans care.
 

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I do somewhat believe that crowds are spoilt. I've been to two WWE house shows, and a bunch of local indy shows where I know a few of the guys, and my group of about 10 wrestling friends and I always make a lot of noise, antagonise the heels etc. And these are for shows where we see the guys spotting out their matches beforehand. If I ever went to an ROH show, I'd be on fire the whole night, so I think they're a bit spoilt. PWG crowds, however, make my heart smile. Especially when it comes to their insulting of Gen. Me
 

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It doesn't help when they're doing a lot of shows in unknown territory to them. The NYC and Chicago crowds that are veteran ROH crowds are always great. The ROH product isn't what it once was either and there isn't anywhere near as much to get the crowd emotionally invested in the wrestlers.

They'll never get the same atmoshphere that PWG does anyway because it's a totally different environment. PWG only run a small building which is maxed out to the brink with a regular crowd for every show. Doesn't hurt that they allow them to drink as much as they like either.
 

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Yeah, i think we got a lot of the reasons out there.

- Loss of talent

- Fan's getting spoiled

- More shows

- Industry losing steam as a whole to MMA

- NYC, Chicago, Ontario getting all the "A" shows, everyone else settling for "B" shows or lower.


The last reason, I live in Detroit and certainly not a "A" crowd, although we typically do get a really good show every year. Aries vs. Richards was AWESOME. Then again we also have to sit through shows like Gold Rush and Motor City Madness. So Detroit may be a bad example for this, but other cities like Dayton, Boston, Conn, Manassas know there shows are used to set up the NYC/Chicago shows. I completely understand running NYC more...but when the 5-6 NYC shows are typically the best shows of the year, something isn't right there.
 

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One thing I can't stand about ROH crowds is that they have to shit on everything these days. They were the main factor of what ruined the title match at Death Before Dishonor for me (well, that and the lack of psychology and no-selling and Davey Richards being too over the top for his own good). When Davey becomes champion, the crowd will automatically shit on him like they have done to every single ROH champion since Morishima.
 

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When Davey becomes champion, the crowd will automatically shit on him like they have done to every single ROH champion since Morishima.
i guess they miss Dragon too much
 

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WF's Real Bad Guy
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I think the crowds and the fans have become spoiled. Honestly though it was bound to happen. ROH and their wrestlers have gave every thing they had to the fans on most of their shows which in turn made the shows and the product feel special.

Now it just seems that the product has took a few steps back in terms of quality, due to roster changes, and change in product direction. However for the product to get back on track "the office" has to build or sign some new wrestlers. who can go in the ring and be a character that the fans will care about. Until that happens ROH may be stuck in decline.
 

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also known as a BUSTER
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There are two main differences with PWG, as far as I can see:

1) They promote a more light-hearted style of wrestling, which facilitates interaction with the crowd. You'll often see wrestlers, in PWG, directly talking to a particular audience member, for example.

2) PWG lets the fans stand with their hands, literally, resting on the apron.

All-in-all it adds up to the fact that ROH's product is a bit more "aloof" than PWG and it's fans are probably a bit more aloof than SoCal stoners too.

Haas and Benjamin might be a good example of two guys who can (judging by GBHIX) work the ROH style and still wave their arms around enough to engage a disinterested audience. Hopefully they have a positive influence.
 

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Ramble On
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Discussion Starter #18
Yeah when Hass and Benjamin came out at GBH that was the most alive i have seen the ROH crwod in ages. I can imagine the crowd being super hot for davey at Final Battle, he is always the guy to try and most of the time succeed in getting the crowd in to matches plus the NY crowd is usually pretty hot when they don't decide to shit on people.
 

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Bowing down to the BEAST INCARNATE
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I mean, to me, it all boils down to ROH starting up as an underground movement that lifted both middle fingers at the establishment, especially the WWE and that was all about wrestling and nothing more.

But the more it grew and tried to grow, it had to or changed without even noticing it itself. Maybe it was over exposure for the die hard fans (consecutive weekends sometimes of double headers with the same roster sort of throws creativity in the matches out the window.) or over saturation of the indy market as a whole.

But yeah, the dead crowds at ROH events have gone up in numbers it would seem ever since 2007. (as I've seen it) I'll say one thing though, I haven't had the chance to go to many ROH shows because of travelling and time constraint issues (SOH 3 & Take No Prisoners 2009 + The 2 Montreal Shows) but, one thing I deplore about any wrestling crowds is lack of participation.

Why the hell are you here if you're going to be silent... this ain't the WWE. If anything, WWE would need more dead crowds to realize that sometimes they're going in the wrong direction. I guess ROH crowds have seen too many awesome stuff in such a short period of time that they fail to realize that there's a product and stories they need to build and push and try out on live crowds and that they're tv deal in Philly isn't the only place they can use for that.
 

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Combination of things really and most of them have been mentioned already. The main thing to me is the TV/PPV format that they are trying to push towards. Back in the day it was exclusively house shows and although some were clearly more important than others, every show had its place. Now, ROH has iPPVs (where the main events happen) ROHonHDnet where we see mostly squash matches (ive not seen it in a while so this may have changed) and the regular house shows. With so many different formats and in the case of TV, taping dates and air dates differences, the booking is going to be full of continuity errors and its harder to follow. I can see why they have added different methods of distributing their product but its much harder to follow now than the old format of house shows that get released later on DVD later.
 
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