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Discussion Starter #1
Just read a new spoiler report from lastnight;s taping. All I can say is no matter the result of the PPV match,Orton is doing a top notch job in trying to get Henry over like nobody else.

First he got laid out after the cage match last week and then lastnight.Man,all I know is theres NO WAY Id ever wanna trust Mark in doing this to me but I guess Randy changed his mind on trusting him.It said in the report that after Mark blocked an RKO into The WSS he brought a chair in the ring and put it on Orton's throat and sat on it until Randy passed out.

Ouch. Now of course the Orton bashers Im sure will say 'this just means Orton is going over" and crap like that but again,Orton,unlike Cena,is trying his best to make someone look great at his expense.And I guess he let Cody have about 75% offense in their match lastnight too.

Could anyone see Cena giving someone like Cody that much offense on him??
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

Yeah that's back to back postmatch beatdowns by Henry to Orton and it's not like Orton didn't see them coming. He was ready to fight back only to be overpowered by Henry. Great way to show that Henry actually has the upperhand in this feud.
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

I just don't get why anyone would care about Henry in 2011. Why are they spending so much time building an older talent to be "dominant" when the push could of been given to (literally) a handful of guys.
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

Just read a new spoiler report from lastnight;s taping. All I can say is no matter the result of the PPV match,Orton is doing a top notch job in trying to get Henry over like nobody else.

First he got laid out after the cage match last week and then lastnight.Man,all I know is theres NO WAY Id ever wanna trust Mark in doing this to me but I guess Randy changed his mind on trusting him.It said in the report that after Mark blocked an RKO into The WSS he brought a chair in the ring and put it on Orton's throat and sat on it until Randy passed out.

Ouch. Now of course the Orton bashers Im sure will say 'this just means Orton is going over" and crap like that but again,Orton,unlike Cena,is trying his best to make someone look great at his expense.And I guess he let Cody have about 75% offense in their match lastnight too.

Could anyone see Cena giving someone like Cody that much offense on him??

You are comparing Cena; a man that has been taken out by the Miz alone several times, was owned by the Nexus, enslaved by Barrett, had competitive matches with Barrett, Truth and the Miz, has been beat down by virtually everyone getting pushed, to Orton just because Orton is getting beaten up by Henry (a guy who has shelved Big Show and Kane, and is being booked as nigh unstoppable). Orton isn't doing anything special, it's new, but Henry has been attacking people with chairs for a while now. Orton will most likely have some form of match next week on Raw/SD and destroy someone else during or post match in retaliation.

I highly doubt that Rhodes got 75% of the offense in the match, I'd be a little surprised if he gets 50% (but it is way more likely). Anyway, yes, could probably get that much offense in with Cena if not more, the ending will still be the same though.

Say what you will about Cena, but people tend to pick up a whole lot more fans when they feud with Cena than when they feud with anyone else.

If you are trying to make a comparison between Orton and Cena, you should note that Cena loses important matches Orton does not.
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

Say what you will about Cena, but people tend to pick up a whole lot more fans when they feud with Cena than when they feud with anyone else.

If you are trying to make a comparison between Orton and Cena, you should note that Cena loses important matches Orton does not.
This. Exactly. Cena is a perfect opponent because as a face he's hated by half the crowd and loved by the other half. So if you're a heel, you're going to get some backing.

I'm really surprised that people say that Cena doesn't lose as much as Orton as that isn't the case at all. The televised records for both men are:

Orton 31-12
Cena 21-14-1

Since entering Smackdown, there's not a single guy that Orton has put over or elevated in the long term. It doesn't matter if they got 60%, 40% or 80% of the offensive. In the case of Christian, no way he got even half of the offensive in their matches. There isn't a single credible heel that is on Orton's level because they didn't build one to be seen as his equal due to booking. They could have done that with Barrett, Rhodes, or Christian. They haven't so far. Henry may have sat on someone but we all know the final result, Henry loses, hall of pain ends and he goes back to the midcard. There ends his credibility where if they kept things even he could have come back and looked credible.

This is why Smackdown is suffering. I'm not saying Orton has to go on a massive losing streak but I should be watching a match and think wow, this guy has a shot at taking the title. I don't have that opinion at all. The end result is always predictable. And that's why there's little interest in the show. With Cena, I do have a feeling that he could lose. He doesn't lose near enough but he's not nearly as untouchable as Orton. Del Rio now and The Miz before both looked like his equals. R-Truth didn't but he was a filler opponent.

Now they are doing a good job building Sheamus up, but the problem is that unless he flips heel, there's no end game to this build. Orton will always be the #1 face and in the title picture and there isn't room for Sheamus.
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

You are comparing Cena; a man that has been taken out by the Miz alone several times, was owned by the Nexus, enslaved by Barrett, had competitive matches with Barrett, Truth and the Miz, has been beat down by virtually everyone getting pushed, to Orton just because Orton is getting beaten up by Henry (a guy who has shelved Big Show and Kane, and is being booked as nigh unstoppable). Orton isn't doing anything special, it's new, but Henry has been attacking people with chairs for a while now. Orton will most likely have some form of match next week on Raw/SD and destroy someone else during or post match in retaliation.

I highly doubt that Rhodes got 75% of the offense in the match, I'd be a little surprised if he gets 50% (but it is way more likely). Anyway, yes, could probably get that much offense in with Cena if not more, the ending will still be the same though.

Say what you will about Cena, but people tend to pick up a whole lot more fans when they feud with Cena than when they feud with anyone else.

If you are trying to make a comparison between Orton and Cena, you should note that Cena loses important matches Orton does not.
Last time I checked Cena made Miz say I quit. Owned by Nexus? He buried them one by one during the fired angle. Competitive matches with Barrett? He literally buried the guy at the TLC PPV. Of course he will get beaten down by everyone getting pushed because his gimmick is never give up. He gets beaten up then seeks revenge.
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

This. Exactly. Cena is a perfect opponent because as a face he's hated by half the crowd and loved by the other half. So if you're a heel, you're going to get some backing.

I'm really surprised that people say that Cena doesn't lose as much as Orton as that isn't the case at all. The televised records for both men are:

Orton 31-12
Cena 21-14-1

Since entering Smackdown, there's not a single guy that Orton has put over or elevated in the long term. It doesn't matter if they got 60%, 40% or 80% of the offensive. In the case of Christian, no way he got even half of the offensive in their matches. There isn't a single credible heel that is on Orton's level because they didn't build one to be seen as his equal due to booking. They could have done that with Barrett, Rhodes, or Christian. They haven't so far. Henry may have sat on someone but we all know the final result, Henry loses, hall of pain ends and he goes back to the midcard. There ends his credibility where if they kept things even he could have come back and looked credible.

This is why Smackdown is suffering. I'm not saying Orton has to go on a massive losing streak but I should be watching a match and think wow, this guy has a shot at taking the title. I don't have that opinion at all. The end result is always predictable. And that's why there's little interest in the show. With Cena, I do have a feeling that he could lose. He doesn't lose near enough but he's not nearly as untouchable as Orton. Del Rio now and The Miz before both looked like his equals. R-Truth didn't but he was a filler opponent.

Now they are doing a good job building Sheamus up, but the problem is that unless he flips heel, there's no end game to this build. Orton will always be the #1 face and in the title picture and there isn't room for Sheamus.
This.
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

This. Exactly. Cena is a perfect opponent because as a face he's hated by half the crowd and loved by the other half. So if you're a heel, you're going to get some backing.

I'm really surprised that people say that Cena doesn't lose as much as Orton as that isn't the case at all. The televised records for both men are:

Orton 31-12
Cena 21-14-1

Since entering Smackdown, there's not a single guy that Orton has put over or elevated. It doesn't matter if they got 60%, 40% or 80% of the offensive. There isn't a single credible heel that is on Orton's level because they didn't build one to be seen as his equal. They refuse to book anyone as Orton's equal. They could have done that with Barrett, Rhodes, or Christian. They haven't so far. Henry may have sat on someone but we all know the final result, Henry loses, hall of pain ends and he goes back to the midcard. There ends his credibility where if they kept things even he could have come back and looked credible.
People hate Cena too much to say anything nice about him, but really just look over at Raw and it's roster. Cena cannot be toppled as no. 1 (people need to accept that and what it means), but in kayfabe most anyone on Raw can go toe to toe with Cena. Go back a couple of years and no one would think Miz, Truth, a newbie(ADR) or Punk could pull a victory over Cena. Now, all that seems within reach (though it is still quite a reach for some of them). SD, it's just set in stone that Orton is the best, you can sneak attack but that's it, nothing else, one on one Orton WILL beat you even with shenanigans.

Orton shouldn't end Henry's streak, what good would it do? Orton has hit his ceiling as a main event face, it won't make him more popular. Henry would pretty much be back to jobbing which is probably the inevitable end for his monster run, but at least he'd have elevated a young face before that (Sheamus in all likelihood). Then what? Serve up Barrett to Orton to kill off what little credibility he has left.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Re: Orton/Henry

Yeah,Cena's great at putting guys over. Like the whole Nexus he destroyed all by himself?Including Wade and Gabriel at SummerSlam last year,even taking a ddt on the concrete and coming back 2 minutes later and pinning both guys like nothing happened and no selling the ddt like it was nothing? Yeah,good job John. Even Punk couldnt save Nexus after that burial.

And on the subject of Punk,Cena never even did a clean job to him in either of their PPV matches.One he was distracted by Vince and Laurinitas coming down to help him and the other he had his foot on the rope when he was pinned.And what about this past Raw?

Would it have hurt Cena to maybe have someome else go over and win that elimination match? I know Cena is the top contender for ADR's title and such but why couldnt Christian,Sheamus or even Dolph be the last guy left? It was just a throwaway 8 man match that there was no need for him to be the last one.If that was Orton being the last guy left there'd be 10 threads on here asking why he was the last guy left but if its Cena its all good.

And dont get me started on how Cena buried Miz at Extreme Rules this year. He gets killed for 25 minutes by Miz and Riley,comes back and kills Riley and makes Miz tap like a little girl a minute later like it was a walk in the park. And the best part was on the Raw the next night he comes out all happy and smiling and says how brutal the match was for him,all the while selling no effects from the match at all.


And Cena really put over R-Truth in their feud didnt he? Now Truth and Miz are a tag team soon to be getting the worthless tag belts.Wow.

Orton in the past 3 weeks has given Ted Jr. more offense in their match they had on S-Down than Ted's had in all his matches combined this whole year. He made Dolph look as good as hes ever had and made him look like he can hang with The World Champ in thier Raw match and from the reports did the same w/Cody this week.

Orton even gave Heath Slater some offense on him(even and 2 and a half count pin on him after a spinebuster). And whats so hard to believe about Orton giving Cody about 3/4 of their match like that report from the show said? He did it w/ Ted and Dolph so why not Cody?


And how many of those "losses" that Cena's had this year were clean ones where he made the other guy look good? I bet none.
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

both guys cant sell cause ortons stands up all the time too and is there like nothing actually happened although cena is worse
i have to say cenas looses arent clean losses but he looses
orton does not loose only one time when christian attacked him and sheamus pinned him afterwards
fact is both are horrible but cena looses more often so he actually help his opponent in a way or the other
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

And Cena really put over R-Truth in their feud didnt he? Now Truth and Miz are a tag team soon to be getting the worthless tag belts.Wow.
They are the focus of a reworked division and the highest profile team there. They'll TV time is set for the immediate future. That's much better than someone like Christian is going to get. He's going to job to whatever face isn't busy that week while complaining about the WHC that got away. Having the WHC was great, but it sure didn't do a lot to establish him as a main event talent.
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

Yeah,Cena's great at putting guys over. Like the whole Nexus he destroyed all by himself?Including Wade and Gabriel at SummerSlam last year,even taking a ddt on the concrete and coming back 2 minutes later and pinning both guys like nothing happened and no selling the ddt like it was nothing? Yeah,good job John. Even Punk couldnt save Nexus after that burial.

And on the subject of Punk,Cena never even did a clean job to him in either of their PPV matches.One he was distracted by Vince and Laurinitas coming down to help him and the other he had his foot on the rope when he was pinned.And what about this past Raw?

Would it have hurt Cena to maybe have someome else go over and win that elimination match? I know Cena is the top contender for ADR's title and such but why couldnt Christian,Sheamus or even Dolph be the last guy left? It was just a throwaway 8 man match that there was no need for him to be the last one.If that was Orton being the last guy left there'd be 10 threads on here asking why he was the last guy left but if its Cena its all good.

And dont get me started on how Cena buried Miz at Extreme Rules this year. He gets killed for 25 minutes by Miz and Riley,comes back and kills Riley and makes Miz tap like a little girl a minute later like it was a walk in the park. And the best part was on the Raw the next night he comes out all happy and smiling and says how brutal the match was for him,all the while selling no effects from the match at all.


And Cena really put over R-Truth in their feud didnt he? Now Truth and Miz are a tag team soon to be getting the worthless tag belts.Wow.

Orton in the past 3 weeks has given Ted Jr. more offense in their match they had on S-Down than Ted's had in all his matches combined this whole year. He made Dolph look as good as hes ever had and made him look like he can hang with The World Champ in thier Raw match and from the reports did the same w/Cody this week.

Orton even gave Heath Slater some offense on him(even and 2 and a half count pin on him after a spinebuster). And whats so hard to believe about Orton giving Cody about 3/4 of their match like that report from the show said? He did it w/ Ted and Dolph so why not Cody?


And how many of those "losses" that Cena's had this year were clean ones where he made the other guy look good? I bet none.
@mst3rulz

Now, Cena did beat Barrett in the end of the feud, Barrett got his win at HIAC, throughout most of the feud, Barrett had the upperhand, and Cena effectively put Barrett over and that's why so many people are pissed at what has been happening since Barrett moved to SD (myself included).

Now you say Cena destroyed the Nexus, not really, he attacked them all in one night sequentially and the Nexus still existed after that. Prior to that Cena was Barrett's bitch. Yeah team Cena won at Summerslam, that cannot be defended, but they bounced back with Barrett's win at HIAC. Even with the loss in the end at TLC Nexus was still as over as they ever were. Pretty sure, Orton killed the Nexus along with shit booking.

If I recall correctly, Cena didn't beat the entire Nexus in matches in back to back weeks despite being jumped and soundly beaten down. Orton did. Orton then proceeded to dominate Punk on back to back PPV's without ever losing to him once.

To your second point, Cena never cleanly jobbed to Punk, but he made Punk look like his equal, effectively putting him over. Cena was distracted the first time (how did he beat Punk to get his shot at ADR?), he had his foot under the ropes the second time so he clearly didn't have the strength to kick out. Punk was put on Cena's level, that is pretty much putting him over.

Ah, this past Raw; Sheamus eliminated himself whilst looking strong, Dolph and Swagger had Cena beat until they got in each others way, Christian stood no chance (after Orton buried him, how could he?), Riley and Morrison stood no chance but looked legit, Swagger was made to look strong, hell even Barrett looked good. Christian looked terrible but, hey most the guys in that match looked good. From a booking perspective who would you have be sole survivor, your no. 1 contender, some guys who weren't doing shit or one of two heels that are trying to one up each other? They made the right choice, face team had to win, they couldn't dominate the heel team so the heel team got the advantage and their problems cost them the win. It was just so Cena could get back at ADR for last time when ADR jumped him and if others were there ADR couldn't logically jump Cena now could he, it would kill their moment. Everyone came out of this looking good, save Christian & ADR, so what the problem is?

As for the Miz, yes, Miz did say I quit, but he beat the dog shit out of Cena for the entire match, technically speaking there was no escape for the Miz from the submission move so it isn't a loss that cannot be justified would you have preferred he passed out only to be woken up and really go out like a bitch. Also he had owned Cena practically every week up till wrestlemania and needed to be AA'd from the top rope to lose at Extreme rules and survived many double team assaults from JoMo and Cena. He survived Cena at WM, the match ended in a draw with Miz knocking Cena out, but that is overshadowed by the Rock's interference when he restarted the match and Rock bottomed Cena (the Miz had already legitimately retained his title but people forget that).

It is funny you mention that, but fail to mention Orton winning the title from the WHC in that same week after he had participated in a Last man standing match with Punk (he wasn't exactly selling much either)

I said he had a competitive match with Truth, which he did, he needed a distraction to beat RTruth and that makes Truth look good. Yes, Miz and Truth are entering the tag division because they have become so important as to warrant air time on a weekly basis. They are both high on the card and consistently associate with main eventers, hell Miz is a main eventer now. So what the problem is?

Now to your losses question, practically none of them have been clean, but they were losses against heels (heels don't beat the top guy clean all willy nilly). Nevertheless, no one has come out of Cena PPV match looking like utter shit, for the most part they look good as they exit.

As a counter how many losses has Orton had and how many were clean? None.

The man couldn't even lose to the MiTB winner easily despite being jumped and injured before a championship match and participating in a championship match prior to Miz cashing in.

The man beat CM Punk how many times during their feud? He even decimated the entire Nexus.

Christian has never beaten Orton 1 on 1 despite them facing each other like 6-7 times, he won once by dq and got raped right after that. Even worse, Christian never kicked out of an RKO whilst Orton kicked out of a spear and Killswitch several times. He beat Christian whilst he was concussed.

You mentioned Orton having competitive matches with people on TV, I mentioned Cena having competitive matches with people on PPV, I believe mine carries more weight.

Besides, if you are gonna go by how tough he made them look, Cena has had competitive matches with Justin Gabriel and Ziggler and made them look good, pretty sure he's had one with Kofi and ADR too. His usual MO for most matches is to be beaten up for most the match and make a comeback so I'm pretty sure the other guy got to look good too.

To reiterate my point, "No one has ever come out of a feud with Orton looking better than they did going in", they mostly leave looking worse. With Cena you look better even in defeat.
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

Smackdown will fail because they will go the feed route with Orton like they are doing on RAW with Cena. The problem is that Smackdown has nowhere near the quantity and quality of heels for it to work.

Christian was turned for a reason, no top talent heel for Orton. So of course they didn't make the guy the centerpiece heel of the brand. He didn't get a pinfall win in 7 consecutive 1-on-1 matches against Orton. Sheamus just turned face, and it looks to be a successful turn. Even if he would have remained heel, it would have just been a rehash of a feud that Orton won handily. Wade Barrett, I like the guy a ton, but he's got no credibility since being drafted to Smackdown. Rhodes has a bit more, but he just lost to Orton and Orton would not lose to Rhodes if he didn't lose to CM Punk or Christian.

Once Henry, ironically enough, is fed to Orton, who are they supposed to have feud with Orton? Keep in mind the rest of the roster needs heels to fight with, too.
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

Christian was turned for a reason, no top talent heel for Orton. So of course they didn't make the guy the centerpiece heel of the brand.
And that's exactly the problem. If he was turned to be a top heel of Smackdown, he should have been the strongest, most manipulative, cunning version that they could conceivable sell. A character that was so evil that you came each week to see what exactly he would do until the next draft and the next top heel came along. So even when he wasn't in the title picture, he got people talking. What did creative do? The exact opposite. They made him as weak as possible, got him trashed verbally by the whole roster at the end of the feud and took him out of the centerpiece position that he could have had by horrible character development. Oh, and he became Del Rio's puppet, the exact guy who kayfabe injured him for six months. That was the most illogical part of the booking.
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

Still believe Henry's going to be WHC in a month's time. Smackdown is the home of the Gold Watch World Championship Reign. Kane in 2010, then Christian this past spring/summer, and Henry is next in line. An oddball reason but another reason nonetheless for Henry becoming WHC is that it actually pads out Undertaker's resume some. Who's the guy who stands out in the Streak matches of the past seven years? Henry. A WHC reign under his belt corresponding with a big heel push and it won't look quite so funny anymore to some people... somewhere... I guess.

The wisest course to go, especially now that they've invested so much in Henry's push, is to have Henry win the strap at around Hell in a Cell time. Orton can lose cleanly once this year; they had him lose cleanly to Swagger nearly a year and a half ago and if anything it actually seemed to give him greater momentum, especially with his antic of RKOing Swagger following the loss in SCSA-like irreverence. Have Orton get his heat back by RKOing Henry a dozen times if they feel it necessary, it's not like casual fan people are going to look at Orton losing a match in which he's caged with the beast who "took out" Big Show and Kane and say, "Well, gee, I guess he's not so tough after all." It's so easy to book. Orton beats Henry via super-duper RKO outta nowhere. Next Smackdown, Henry does his splash-on-the-chaired-leg gig to Orton to close out the show. Next week, Teddy Long begs Orton to relinquish the championship, Orton says fuck off, he opts to have the Cell match with Henry anyway, and he puts up a heroic fight but he loses because his leg is practically broken. They could even have Orton take a few weeks off in the middle of October to sell it, because we all know he's superman and a broken leg should heal in about three weeks, maximum, for him.

Anyway, let Henry have the belt for a month or so. Meanwhile, build Sheamus up as the babyface alternative to Orton. Let Orton get a measure of revenge on Henry by attacking Henry. Reboot the Sheamus/Henry feud following an impressive #1 contendership match of some kind (not a straight-up tag team match, playa), have Sheamus/Henry for the WHC at Survivor Series, Sheamus is smashed through the barricade by Henry in a replay of Summerslam but this time Sheamus crawls back in at the count of nine. Miraculously, Sheamus defeats Henry and puts the beast down. They could have a gimmick rematch at TLC with Sheamus going over again, even more decisively this time, to conclude Henry's push before the inevitable early January episode of Raw/Smackdown in which Henry shows up and clears the ring of a bunch of midcarders 'cause he's gonna win the 'Rumble this year.

I agree, though, feeding Henry to Orton is a bad move because then there's really nobody left on Smackdown who poses a realistic threat. Does anyone really want to see another fall series of matches between Barrett and Orton, despite, ironically, both of their respective levels of improvement in workrate compared to almost a year ago? Cody's not really ready for a WHC chase yet, either; he should be positioned at the top of the midcard as Intercontinental Champion for a while, at least. A face/face program with Sheamus is a terrible idea and could be the one way in which Sheamus definitely loses a hell of a lot of momentum. And even if they turned Daniel Bryan heel next week or next month and had him feud with Orton, he needs some rebuilding himself following this losing streak of his.
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

Just read a new spoiler report from lastnight;s taping. All I can say is no matter the result of the PPV match,Orton is doing a top notch job in trying to get Henry over like nobody else.

First he got laid out after the cage match last week and then lastnight.Man,all I know is theres NO WAY Id ever wanna trust Mark in doing this to me but I guess Randy changed his mind on trusting him.It said in the report that after Mark blocked an RKO into The WSS he brought a chair in the ring and put it on Orton's throat and sat on it until Randy passed out.

Ouch. Now of course the Orton bashers Im sure will say 'this just means Orton is going over" and crap like that but again,Orton,unlike Cena,is trying his best to make someone look great at his expense.And I guess he let Cody have about 75% offense in their match lastnight too.

Could anyone see Cena giving someone like Cody that much offense on him??
Spoiler much you dumbass?
 

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Re: Orton/Henry

The first sentence of his post lets you know it's a spoiler. If you read more after that it's your fault. And stop the name calling.
He said that he READ what happened last night, he didn't say he would talk about it. I stopped reading after the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph but I did see something about a chair and Henry/Orton and that kinda ruins the main event for me. That guy should be banned!



Ok, maybe he shouldn't, but he should get warned.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Good points "NewGuy" but if you recall,about him losing to Miz when he cashed in the MITB case,dont everyone that cashes it in always do it on an "injured" opponent more often that not? And its really aboutr how Cena dont sell "beatings" more than anything with me.

Like I said in my post,he talks about how brutal the E.R. match w/ Miz was and yet sells no effects from it whatsoever on Raw the next day. And then the afore mentioned no sell of the ddt on concrete at S-Slam last year. I can go on and on about matches/angles where he no sells extended beatings or sells for about a minute than comes back like nothing happened moreso than anyone Ive ever seen.

His psychology is some of the worst going today. Unless hes in there with Punk who lead him the whole way in those type spots.If he'd actually learn to sell and leatrn psychology than Id admit hes not bad but until then imo he sux.

And to ministrydeadman,pot,kettle,black.
 
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