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You're sure that's confirmed as I thought Lesnar would have nothing on his mind exept for training for Mark Hunt tbh.

Can't imagine him having a wrestling match beforehand.
Yeah, turns out I got worked up there. This was a thing from April, and turns out that not only is Lesnar not doing it, but the show ain't live anyway.

Sorry to disappoint, but it is what it is. At least Cena/Nak and Lesnar/Owens are being saved for special occasions.
 

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Super Moderator Going Backwards With WF
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:p

Yeah, I'd hope Lesnar/Owens happens at some point tbh and not on a network special either. Mind you, knowing WWE it'll still be the same formula as most of Lesnar's matches nowadays.

Saying that, Owens does his own suplexes so they'll probably build it as a Suplex match anyways lol.
 

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:clap

I'm 100% in agreement with everything you said. ESPECIALLY when it comes to the change in how crowds react to matches. I miss the days when fans just cheered or boo'd, only chanting a baby faces name on a come back, or on really special occasions getting the "Holy shit!" chant. It makes for SUCH a better viewing experience, seeing crowds pop like crazy for a big counter, or boo the shit out out of a heel. Nowadays we just get endless chants, I fucking hate it why would you pay all this money and just go chant for 3 hours? It's absurd.

I'm so happy you mentioned Harper and the tope's. You were the one who introduced me to Brodie Lee WAYYYY back in the day when he first was on NXT. You had him in your avatar and sent me a bunch of stuff to check out. I became a fan, and then when all the Shield/Wyatts stuff happened I became a REAL big fan of his. He's the best big man in the business right now, hands down. Those dives should be special, I still remember the first time he did it and the crowd went ape. But then he started doing it every match and now it's just another cheap pop spot. I don't even blame Harper for this though. What is he supposed to do? He isn't given any real mic time, or any vignettes or segments to help fans connect. He isn't booked properly, hell his booking flat out sucks. How else is he supposed to get over other than doing eye popping moves? I got really really upset watching the ladder match he had with Ziggler at TLC a few years ago. He and Dolph were being fucking morons, Harper almost broke his arm multiple times and they were just being so reckless and stupid it stopped being fun to watch and just made me legitimately fearful they were gonna seriously hurt themselves. And for what? Who even remembers that match? Nobody talks about it, it meant nothing then and means even less now.

Oh, and don't even get me started on matches just being booked for the sake of booking them without any real thought or creative effort being applied. You are SO right about Zayn/Nakamura being the pinnacle, the ideal way those kind of matches can work. However, that match worked because: 1.) It was Nakamura's debut as a baby face, no matter what fans were gonna go ape for him, 2.) It was Zayn's final NXT match, most people knew it, and as a result that got some extra juice from the fans, and 3.) Because it's, quite literally, the 2 very best wrestlers in the entire world (now that Bryan is retired) facing off with no BS overbooking/scripting of the match, nothing being pre planned at all in fact. You probably know this, but Zayn came out and said he and Nakamura didn't discuss one single thing before going out, they had nothing planned other than Zayn was losing to the Bomaye, and just went out and WRESTLED. That's why it was so refreshing, almost all the great, truly special stuff we get these days occurs when scripts/plans are thrown out and guys just do what they have been trained to do: wrestle.

Cena vs Styles first singles match is, if not a WM main event, AT LEAST a main event of a major PPV. I mean, these are the 2 top baby faces of the 2000-2010 decade essentially, in a match fans never thought they'd get to see. If it's not for the World Title, it at least deserves to be treated as a true main event program, going on last after weeks and weeks of building a good feud. Yet, it gets thrown out there in the mid card of MitB, with Styles booked as unnaturally as possible (I just don't want to see him as a heel right now, makes zero sense when he was getting such strong baby face reactions.)

They do this all the time, and they do it much worse than Cena/Styles. We will get the first ever Zayn/Rollins match just given away with zero buildup on SD! Same with the first Styles/Owens match. Why does WWE feel like giving fans two good wrestlers 15-20 minutes to wrestle on free tv is the way to give fans a good show? I for one would MUCH prefer they just kept things short and sweet for the vast majority of TV matches. Give the main event 15-20 minutes including the commercial break, but the rest of the matches should be no more than 5-10 minutes, pitting the top guys against lower card guys. Then use the guest commentary, interference, or whatever to advance the story's and feuds. Also they shouldn't have Zayn and Rollins and all the top guys wrestling every week. I'm of the opinion guys shouldn't wrestle on TV more than 3 times a month, once in a short squash/sprint and then maybe again in a big tag or something on Raw/SD!, and then once at the monthly PPV. Hell that might even be TOO much for the real main event level talents. Having them wrestle every single week, in competitive matches against guys at the same level they are, just diminishes their importance. Then for the 2 weeks they aren't wrestling, one week can be a promo/vignette, the other week just keep them off TV. No need to see them every single week, it keeps them special.

I mean, would you rather watch: Option 1-Zayn/Rollins first singles match with zero buildup, for 15 minutes, someone wins and someone loses. OR, Option-2 would you rather watch Zayn wrestle an 7-8 minute match against ADR/Big Show, Rollins in a 5-7 minute match against Titus/Neville/Swagger, with Rollins on guest commentary SHREDDING Zayn before he interferes and screws him, and Zayn subsequently returning the favor and coming out from the crowd to cost Rollins his match? Then they wrestle their first singles match, 10-15 minutes max, on PPV.

I just wish WWE realized they have guys capable of being big time stars and that they should be treated as such. Can you imagine Undertaker, Austin, Rock, Brock, etc being booked like this? It's the equivalent of WWE starting the 2002 Brock/Taker feud by having them wrestle for 20 minutes on free TV before Unforgiven 2002. Heyman would have NEVER allowed something like that to happen, and for good reason.

Not like I hardly have shit to add since I opine with pretty much all you said (of course, we usually have similar taste): but one thing to to add credence to what ya'll are saying bout high spots for bigmen and particularly Harper: A key little detail to remember about the Shield/Wyatts feud: Harper had said in a SD promo to help along the story of this being an all out war for team supremacy and a line that sticks with me because of how appropriate and badass it was: "Are you boys willing to DIE for this?". Harper hadn't busted out that suicide dive until EC so when he did: it really helped to add to this all out war story and backed up that yes: for Harper to bust that out at around 6'5 270 lbs, yes Harper must indeed have been willing to die for this. My point is: that first dive really meant something and then I assume because it is a cool visual:the initial psychology behind using the move left and it got implemented into everyday moveset. As a result, the effect slowly dilutes while the risk never does.

edit: by the way: just more-or-less an enhancement match: but still I thought this match was humorous and one thing of note: that sidewalk slam takeover into snake eyes then settling for a powerslam all in a motion was pretty sick by Taker:
 

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Your reason to watch Smackdown this week:

Rusev vs. Cesaro for the U.S. Title after Cesaro wins a 4 way #1 contender's match against Sheamus, Del Rio, & Apollo Crews
 

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Discussion Starter #206
Considering my obtuse starting place on these RAW 2004 viewings, got my first good Evolution tag match out of what seems like plenty on the year. Trips, Flair, & Batista vs Benoit, Orton, & Benjamin. Tag match magic works for the billionth time. Trips finally had a match that didn't suck or wasn't purposely a feud advancer. The heels all work so good w/each other. I like Evolution a lot more looking back, even if Trips & Batista are p. trash. The aura of the faction itself worked, even w/those two. Minus the force feeding of Trips as a second coming of Flair booking, the idea of it was well done. And it produced a good, significant heel unit that worked week in and week out. Orton was out of it for most via a mid match injury. Not sure why they bothered w/that booking, but hey, he was SUPER over when he returned later on. Guess that was the goal? RKO is always such a great finisher considering the reactions it can get. Not gonna fall into the "too bad he fucking sucks today" spiel. This is 2004, I'm letting it speak for itself. Benoit was the star here as far as one significant performance goes. Should I even have to point that out? It's Chris Benoit. Have to say that's probably assumed. Those Benoit vs Flair interactions always rule. Might be his most awe inspiring headbutt I've ever seen too. Hang time was absurd. Not kidding; was more noteworthy than the usual spot. Smart match to move Benjamin back into once he returned from injury. He started off the match having Trips' number, which kept that year long story continued. Showing that he & the angle hasn't missed a beat. Gosh I love matches like this. Such fun & great purpose for filling out TV en route to bigger destinations.
 

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Someone posted the Owens vs. Nakamura match from Hawaii on YouTube but it got pulled by WWE. Anyone catch it or have another link for it?
 

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NO PAIN!
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Prospected new Razor Ramon dvd set >>
Have you seen the 20 min sneak peak that's posted on the Network? I desperately wanted to avoid watching it so as not to spoil it when the full doc is released, but last night I found myself unable to sleep and nothing to watch, so I buckled and watched it.

Well, I needn't worry about it spoiling anything, all it did was get me even MORE excited for the doc to finally be released. I don't want to say it's going to be the best doc since Foley's or Punk's just yet, because you know, it's WWE they have the ability to ruin just about anything they come into contact with. However, those 20 minutes or so made this doc look EXTREMELY promising, and they didn't even cover a single second of his WWE run as Razor Ramon or his return to WCW as Scott Hall. It was all early days stuff, but it was still fantastic.
 
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