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Discussion Starter #1
This guy has not created a legit mega star since John Cena, nor have even attempted to do it so, the quality of his product has been in constant and uniform decline for the past 20 year, hell we are not going to talk about megastars, the only modern wrestler who apparently has a solid fanbase enough to draw a fly is Roman Reigns.

Roughly 90% of the current roster are nobodies, wrestlers with no relevance which are not even big enough for people to remember what their fucking name is and the other 10% is constituted from guys that have been there since the ATTITUDE/RUTHLESS AGRESSION ERA... WHAT? YES! Vince is putting a 47 years- nearly paralytic Edge in the main event of Wrestlemania, he is got a 60 years old Bill Goldberg fighting for the fucking title... He is got Brock Lesnar and Randy Orton as some of his biggest attractions and has been basically squishing Undertaker career in order to have anything worth the watch in Wrestlemania every year. (Till he fucking finally retired)

Do you understand this? This is guy is RE-SELLING US and making money off things he created 20 years ago!! And don't let even talk how basically he is running his business by selling 1.5 million people old stuff from the WWE network. ( We know most people subscribed there dont give a shit about the current stuff, they watch the good old stuff). THIS GUY IS A FUCKING GENIUS.

I mean just look at these fucking WrestleMania posters.





WWE is basically alive because they were good 20 years ago, that is mindblowing to be honest, hats off to Vince Mcmahon.
 

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It's booked exactly like a guy who knows he could croak anytime in the next 10 years and he doesn't care what state the company is in when his successors are handed the damaged goods. Vince just might be egotistical enough to want people to think the WWF/WWE during his lifetime was better than BOTH his father and his kids/son in laws, so if Steph/HHH are handed a dud when Vince keels over... Vince doesn't give a shit.
 

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Vince McMahon does not believe in upcoming stars. This is clear enough. He does not think much of them.

It's booked exactly like a guy who knows he could croak anytime in the next 10 years and he doesn't care what state the company is in when his successors are handed the damaged goods. Vince just might be egotistical enough to want people to think the WWF/WWE during his lifetime was better than BOTH his father and his kids/son in laws, so if Steph/HHH are handed a dud when Vince keels over... Vince doesn't give a shit.
I do not believe this is the case because he would want to ensure that his grand children have a strong future ahead.
 

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Times have changed man. The death of kayfabe was for all intents and purposes the death of the wrestling megastar. I mean vince is on stone cold's podcast talking about why HE decided the end the streak. Its hard to take it seriously
 

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He's banking on Cena, Brock, Punk, Orton (all in their late 40's-50's) and The Shield, Bray and D-Bryan (all in their 40's) being special attractions come WM 45. Opposite guys in NXT and AEW right now, who get over.
 

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Times have changed man. The death of kayfabe was for all intents and purposes the death of the wrestling megastar. I mean vince is on stone cold's podcast talking about why HE decided the end the streak. Its hard to take it seriously
The end of kayfabe happened in 1984. There were multiple megastars since then.
 

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More like he doesn't need to, maybe until all old glories are finally dead.
I agree with this statement. However, I cannot blame him.

I believe most wrestlers do not have the same motivation or balls of stars from previous generations. (The current exceptions being Roman Reigns, Bray Wyatt, Jon Moxley. I also wish to see how current AEW stars like MJF, Sammy Guevara would survive under Mr McMahon's ruling. Would they be happy to do anything?).

They seem to be happy with any given opportunity. Could you imagine if Steve Austin was told "ok Mr Austin, you will be stuck feuding with Val Venis where you will trade wins and losses for the whole year. We have nothing else for you". He would lose his mind and walk out.
 

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He's banking on Cena, Brock, Punk, Orton (all in their late 40's-50's) and The Shield, Bray and D-Bryan (all in their 40's) being special attractions come WM 45. Opposite guys in NXT and AEW right now, who get over.
They get over in an NXT environment of pure work rate. Unless you want the main roster to be NXT (a limiting but still viable option), most of these over talents are ill suited for the contrary requirements for Raw or Smackdown.
 

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They get over in an NXT environment of pure work rate. Unless you want the main roster to be NXT (a limiting but still viable option), most of these over talents are ill suited for the contrary requirements for Raw or Smackdown.
Yep. But you always get a small group that overperform or who have all the ingredients McMahon and Dunn like to see. So even on ageing platforms like Smackdown and (particularly) Raw, somebody breaks that glass ceiling.

Could be McAfee, Dream, Walter, Grimes, Scott. Or Holland, Vink. Or MJF, Page, Starks, Hobbs. Or Fatu, Hammerstone, Pillman Jr, Robinson. Or one of the greenies from NCAA.

It only takes a handul of them to break through and you have 5 years worth of content and marketing to build off. Everybody else falls into the supporting role that Miz, Kofi and Sheamus occupy. Of course, the power of nostalgia and absence can also allow for that supporting crew to have more value in their athletic twilight years.

The latter holds true for the WWE as a whole. Right now they are pushing lots of throwaway content - both on TV and via the network. That could change with time, giving the newer generation a platform where they aren't as overexposed as this generation of headliners have been.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
T

The revenue and profit wwe makes and their merch also proves it so stfu
Did you just read this thread and you still came up with this nonsense. Ask yourself why WWE has old fucks and partimers main event Wrestlmania every year. They are the ones making them money, the value of their brand and the WWE network is making them money, it's like marvel living off the Avengers and X-Men instead of new stuff.

WWE as brand profits because their once were big and they been carrying those leftovers forever. Current stars are irrelevant, that's why Vince doesn't give a shit about them.
 

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The revenue and profit wwe makes and their merch also proves it so stfu
First of all, I seriously doubt you know how much merch either of them move.

As far as revenue and profit goes, that doesn't prove shit. You took four random names and credited them with something you clearly have no understanding of.
 

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First of all, I seriously doubt you know how much merch either of them move.

As far as revenue and profit goes, that doesn't prove shit. You took four random names and credited them with something you clearly have no understanding of.
Wwe had a deal with peacock recently and their revenue has been going up
 

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This guy has not created a legit mega star since John Cena, nor have even attempted to do it so, the quality of his product has been in constant and uniform decline for the past 20 year, hell we are not going to talk about megastars, the only modern wrestler who apparently has a solid fanbase enough to draw a fly is Roman Reigns.
Vince can't create stars, the only thing he can do is give wrestlers a platform. There is maybe four guys in the history of WWF/E going back 60 odd years that were arguably bigger "stars" than Cena and certainly money draws so this idea that somehow in last 10 years they haven't had someone bigger is kinda stupid really.

Define quality. Was Vince maineventing ppvs above WWF champion, winning Rumble, winning WWF title quality tv?

Sorry but no. Plenty of current acts have brought in lots of money for company. New Day, Becky Lynch, Bryan, Bray Wyatt, Sasha Banks among them.

Did fans suddenly get all nostalgic for the past when online orders set record numbers last year?



Roughly 90% of the current roster are nobodies, wrestlers with no relevance which are not even big enough for people to remember what their fucking name is and the other 10% is constituted from guys that have been there since the ATTITUDE/RUTHLESS AGRESSION ERA... WHAT?
National TV each week people know their names. Most have big online social media following.

Fans still fucking remember jobbers from the days of wrestling challenge.

Vince is putting a 47 years- nearly paralytic Edge in the main event of Wrestlemania, he is got a 60 years old Bill Goldberg fighting for the fucking title... He is got Brock Lesnar and Randy Orton as some of his biggest attractions and has been basically squishing Undertaker career in order to have anything worth the watch in Wrestlemania every year. (Till he fucking finally retired)
Edge has wrestled a 35 minute, 45 minute and 60 minute match since his return last year. Paralytic my ass.

Vince has always brought old guys back. Wrestlemania 3 he had Andre who wasn't able to walk to the ring in the mainevent. Wrestlemania 7 a barely mobile Slaughter in mainevent. Wrestlemania 18 a broken down 50 year old Hogan brought back when WWE should have dozens of "stars" to fill that spot coming out of Attitude Era.

Randy Orton is same age as Bret Hart was in 97 and Flair was in 89. I don't remember anyone saying Bret was too old in Montreal at Survivor Series 97. Brock is younger than Tom Brady!!

Do you understand this? This is guy is RE-SELLING US and making money off things he created 20 years ago!! And don't let even talk how basically he is running his business by selling 1.5 million people old stuff from the WWE network. ( We know most people subscribed there dont give a shit about the current stuff, they watch the good old stuff). THIS GUY IS A FUCKING GENIUS.
people aren't fucking buying the network for the old stuff lol. WWE had classics on demand available for years and never more than 100k homes subscribed. George Barrios when he was there said ppvs, NXT and some of comedy stuff was far and away most watched things on the network.

NBC aren't pay $1b for old content that can easily be found on youtube

WWE is basically alive because they were good 20 years ago, that is mindblowing to be honest, hats off to Vince Mcmahon.
If that was the case why was business so awful in 2004 then. WWE turned the company around in 2005-09 to a point they doubled their attendance, huge rise in merch sales and revenue/profit compared to 2003-04.

Also if that was the case why did WCW go under? Surely them being "good" in 96-98 should have been enough for the company to make nice profit in 2000-01. Starrcade went from 600,000 ppv buys and 15,000 fans selling out arena to 5,000 in same building (lots of paper) and 44,000 ppv buys in just 2 years.

Think about that for a moment. The biggest WCW show of the year on a free week in the middle of a fucking boom period did less sales than an average AEW show.
 

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Vince can't create stars, the only thing he can do is give wrestlers a platform. There is maybe four guys in the history of WWF/E going back 60 odd years that were arguably bigger "stars" than Cena and certainly money draws so this idea that somehow in last 10 years they haven't had someone bigger is kinda stupid really.

Define quality. Was Vince maineventing ppvs above WWF champion, winning Rumble, winning WWF title quality tv?

Sorry but no. Plenty of current acts have brought in lots of money for company. New Day, Becky Lynch, Bryan, Bray Wyatt, Sasha Banks among them.

Did fans suddenly get all nostalgic for the past when online orders set record numbers last year?





National TV each week people know their names. Most have big online social media following.

Fans still fucking remember jobbers from the days of wrestling challenge.



Edge has wrestled a 35 minute, 45 minute and 60 minute match since his return last year. Paralytic my ass.

Vince has always brought old guys back. Wrestlemania 3 he had Andre who wasn't able to walk to the ring in the mainevent. Wrestlemania 7 a barely mobile Slaughter in mainevent. Wrestlemania 18 a broken down 50 year old Hogan brought back when WWE should have dozens of "stars" to fill that spot coming out of Attitude Era.

Randy Orton is same age as Bret Hart was in 97 and Flair was in 89. I don't remember anyone saying Bret was too old in Montreal at Survivor Series 97. Brock is younger than Tom Brady!!



people aren't fucking buying the network for the old stuff lol. WWE had classics on demand available for years and never more than 100k homes subscribed. George Barrios when he was there said ppvs, NXT and some of comedy stuff was far and away most watched things on the network.

NBC aren't pay $1b for old content that can easily be found on youtube



If that was the case why was business so awful in 2004 then. WWE turned the company around in 2005-09 to a point they doubled their attendance, huge rise in merch sales and revenue/profit compared to 2003-04.

Also if that was the case why did WCW go under? Surely them being "good" in 96-98 should have been enough for the company to make nice profit in 2000-01. Starrcade went from 600,000 ppv buys and 15,000 fans selling out arena to 5,000 in same building (lots of paper) and 44,000 ppv buys in just 2 years.

Think about that for a moment. The biggest WCW show of the year on a free week in the middle of a fucking boom period did less sales than an average AEW show.
WWE business is outstandingly healthy at the moment, thanks to core content revenue. It disrupts the traditional drivers to success...ie fan interest. WWE could run withJohnny Gargano as some here want for two years and it would have negligible effect to the company’s revenue. WWE could have each Raw have a Gargano/Ciampossa iron person match that went the entire show for a year, and there’s no impact.

That said, a complete aversion to quality will eventually catch them. House shows will eventually return, and WWE (and eventually Disney) will have to decide whether to cancel them outright. Likewise with live Raw and Smackdown shows - if the result of lazy booking is that they are only drawing 4K per week, does WWE just stick with the Thunderdome forever? It may make financial sense, but what happens when you remove fans from the equation entirely?

House shows had declined to the point of money loss before the pandemic. The Saudi shows (guaranteed money) were also visibility declining in attendance. Network subscriptions had flatlined. Merch is down overall. For Raw and Smackdown, the adventures of “Tarp” were becoming frequent, humorous fodder. WWE as defined by paying fan metrics was declining. But because of a giant TV deal, people think it is the healthiest, most Golden Era-ish version of the company ever.
 

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WWE business is outstandingly healthy at the moment, thanks to core content revenue. It disrupts the traditional drivers to success...ie fan interest. WWE could run withJohnny Gargano as some here want for two years and it would have negligible effect to the company’s revenue. WWE could have each Raw have a Gargano/Ciampossa iron person match that went the entire show for a year, and there’s no impact.

That said, a complete aversion to quality will eventually catch them. House shows will eventually return, and WWE (and eventually Disney) will have to decide whether to cancel them outright. Likewise with live Raw and Smackdown shows - if the result of lazy booking is that they are only drawing 4K per week, does WWE just stick with the Thunderdome forever? It may make financial sense, but what happens when you remove fans from the equation entirely?

House shows had declined to the point of money loss before the pandemic. The Saudi shows (guaranteed money) were also visibility declining in attendance. Network subscriptions had flatlined. Merch is down overall. For Raw and Smackdown, the adventures of “Tarp” were becoming frequent, humorous fodder. WWE as defined by paying fan metrics was declining. But because of a giant TV deal, people think it is the healthiest, most Golden Era-ish version of the company ever.
I don't think anyone thinks that but merch sales and attendance pre Covid were higher than say 2003-04. Raw and SD were doing good attendance numbers in January/March 2020 before fans were barred from attending. The average paid attendance was 6,320 between January and early March last year so above average when you look at 91-97, 2002-19.

Take this Meltzer piece written in late 2004. At no point in recent years did attendance drop this far for major shows. Of course back then you had no Twitter, Youtube to dissect attendance but go back and watch some of those SD shows from 2004 and attendance is so low they keep camera angle so tight to not show the empty arena even in big cities like Atlanta.

Like a live Raw a few weeks ago in Madison Square Garden drawing 7,000 paid. Or a PPV live event in a city that was on fire like Portland, OR, drawing 6,500. Or a PPV hyped with a huge local media blitz, Taboo Tuesday last week in Milwaukee, drawing barely 3,500 paid, by far the smallest paid attendance for a WWE PPV show in history, and even at the end of WCW's run, their PPV shows were doing as well as that. The word from Cleveland is Survivor Series, one of the "big four," is on the verge of tanking (it actually drew 7,500 in an arena set up for 14,500)
Network has gradually saw rise year on year mostly. It hasn't saw huge drop off in subs like what happened WCW ppv business in 2000-01

 
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