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Dude...this isn't about empathy or even ethics. This is about show business. Characters on all kinds of shows do all sorts of things that the actor/actress wouldn't do in real life and wouldn't be proud of, but it doesn't matter because it's FICTION. FICTION. What about all the characters in TV history that are murderers, rapists, drug dealers, wife beaters, etc. Why is that any different? The script calls for them to do something terrible, the actor does it, and we all move on with our lives. If the actor doesn't want to perform whatever act and can't come to an agreement with the director and/or the production company, they part ways. Why is this different?
Don't even compare a TV show to a wrestling show presentation. This is back in the day where a lot of people still thought wrestling was real. It wasn't presented as fiction. And even if it's just as you say actors doing a scene, they still performed it. It isn't like an action, or murder scene with special effects. It is literally Lita and Edge in the ring simulating sex acts. Not to mention the fact that her nipple was shown on live TV as a result.
 

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The Fastest of the Fastest of Jamaican Sprinters
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Don't even compare a TV show to a wrestling show presentation. This is back in the day where a lot of people still thought wrestling was real. It wasn't presented as fiction. And even if it's just as you say actors doing a scene, they still performed it. It isn't like an action, or murder scene with special effects. It is literally Lita and Edge in the ring simulating sex acts. Not to mention the fact that her nipple was shown on live TV as a result.
Back in the day? Kayfabe was dead in 2006. Dead. Vince McMahon flat-out admitted that these people were playing characters. Let's not re-write history. If the audience can't figure out that it's fiction, that's their problem.

Again, they simulated sex acts. SIMULATED, didn't actually do it. Acting. How is that different from me rubbing a goddamn pistol on a chick's face as she cries and begs for mercy? That's fucking sick, and I would never do it, but I hope that when my mother sees that scene, she realizes that it's fiction, which she will because she's not a fucking idiot. Apparently the WWE audience is littered with imbeciles in your mind.

I'm 100% with you on the nip slip, though. If that wasn't planned and agreed upon, I feel bad for her in that respect.
 

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Don't even compare a TV show to a wrestling show presentation. This is back in the day where a lot of people still thought wrestling was real. It wasn't presented as fiction. And even if it's just as you say actors doing a scene, they still performed it. It isn't like an action, or murder scene with special effects. It is literally Lita and Edge in the ring simulating sex acts. Not to mention the fact that her nipple was shown on live TV as a result.
Kayfabe has been dead and buried since the turn of the century when the Internet arrived. The scripted nature of the biz was as known then as it is now, I don’t buy this line of argument
 

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Back in the day? Kayfabe was dead in 2006. Dead. Vince McMahon flat-out admitted that these people were playing characters. Let's not re-write history. If the audience can't figure out that it's fiction, that's their problem.

Again, they simulated sex acts. SIMULATED, didn't actually do it. Acting. How is that different from me rubbing a goddamn pistol on a chick's face as she cries and begs for mercy? That's fucking sick, and I would never do it, but I hope that when my mother sees that scene, she realizes that it's fiction, which she will because she's not a fucking idiot. Apparently the WWE audience is littered with imbeciles in your mind.

I'm 100% with you on the nip slip, though. If that wasn't planned and agreed upon, I feel bad for her in that respect.
It's unethical to imply that WWE wrestlers are puppets and Vince can make them do whatever he wants them to do or they are fired. I'm not mad at the segment itself, it's the fact that she was forced to fucking do it. That's my main issue. If she had agreed upon it, then it is what it is, I would have zero issues with it. When you consider the times where wrestlers were asked to do stuff and they said no and Vince was happy to go along with it, but he would not say no to this. Even after Cena and Edge supposedly tried to stop it he forced the issue. Wrestling isn't the same as a TV show where the wrestlers have zero say or input in what they want with their characters. They have a right to draw a line. I'd like to think that it's a mutual relationship of give and take not a complete dictatorship. In that case you are basically signing away your life.
 
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Fearless University Graduate
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I know her and Edge both shot the idea down and wanted it changed but Vince refused. Never knew it got to the point where they threatened to fire her if she didn't do it. Considering it was a 'Live Sex' segment, that makes that little fact feel even worse.

Its pretty shameful how they treated Lita especially in her last year. You can see it in her performances as well, while she was putting 100% into the Rated R stuff early on, towards the end you can see it in her face that her heart wasn't in this shit anymore.
 

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Lol, forced.

Vince wasn’t standing there holding a gun to her head. As with any of us in our professions if we are asked to do something we don’t want to do we have the option to either do it or quit/get fired. Most people prioritize their career or financial stability and deal with it. The Lita situation is no different.

The entire wrestling industry since the beginning of time has known your signing a contract to be booked as a character that you have little to no control over (unless your a huge star with pull). I’m sure William Regal wasn’t thrilled to have to literally kiss Vince’s ass but that’s what was called for in the storyline. He valued his paycheck and sucked it up and did it. Same goes for Lita, if she felt that strongly about it she could have walked.

Lots of virtue signaling white knights in this thread.

It's unethical to imply that WWE wrestlers are puppets and Vince can make them do whatever he wants them to do or they are fired. I'm not mad at the segment itself, it's the fact that she was forced to fucking do it. That's my main issue. If she had agreed upon it, then it is what it is, I would have zero issues with it. When you consider the times where wrestlers were asked to do stuff and they said no and Vince was happy to go along with it, but he would not say no to this. Even after Cena and Edge supposedly tried to stop it he forced the issue. Wrestling isn't the same as a TV show where the wrestlers have zero say or input in what they want with their characters. They have a right to draw a line. I'd like to think that it's a mutual relationship of give and take not a complete dictatorship. In that case you are basically signing away your life.
Unreal niavete in this post. Have you ever had a job? Mutual relationship, lol. Generally your boss doesn’t negotiate when your given a task or assignment. You either do what’s asked or you take a walk. Unless you have an unbelievable amount of value to your employer if you don’t do what’s asked of you, your ass if gone.

You have to be a millennial.
 

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it sucks she was uncomfortable and vince should of taken that into account, but as a red blooded male im not going to sit here and lie and say i didn't enjoy heel lita in 2006 and the outfits she wore, she was fucking hot, and lets not forget this is one of the top raw moments of all time, and during that time it was saying a lot,

i think it did its job in getting edge heat, it sucks in the sjw era we will never again get fun segments like this ever again.
 

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On a personal level: I can't really feel too bad for Lita from a karma sense She cheated on her boyfriend while he was at home with an injury with someone they were both pretty close with. Hardy had supposedly been incredibly supportive when she was laid up with an injury and she paid him back by screwing someone else while he was injured. I can't stand Matt Hardy one bit. One of my least favorite wrestlers ever. But it really sucks to get cheated on when you bend over backwards for someone. I know from personal experience.

On a professional level: Yes, it was a shitty thing to do forcing someone to go through with that if they weren't cool with it. Apparently though, that's just how Vince's warped and scarred trailer park mind works. If you don't want to do something, Vince will make it his mission in life to make sure you do it, and then make your life hell for refusing him in the first place.
 

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Lol, forced.

Vince wasn’t standing there holding a gun to her head. As with any of us in our professions if we are asked to do something we don’t want to do we have the option to either do it or quit/get fired. Most people prioritize their career or financial stability and deal with it. The Lita situation is no different.

The entire wrestling industry since the beginning of time has known your signing a contract to be booked as a character that you have little to no control over (unless your a huge star with pull). I’m sure William Regal wasn’t thrilled to have to literally kiss Vince’s ass but that’s what was called for in the storyline. He valued his paycheck and sucked it up and did it. Same goes for Lita, if she felt that strongly about it she could have walked.

Lots of virtue signaling white knights in this thread.



Unreal niavete in this post. Have you ever had a job? Mutual relationship, lol. Generally your boss doesn’t negotiate when your given a task or assignment. You either do what’s asked or you take a walk. Unless you have an unbelievable amount of value to your employer if you don’t do what’s asked of you, your ass if gone.

You have to be a millennial.
It's not that simple in wrestling. I get the stuff about having a job and doing what you are told I totally understand that but it gets complicated in wrestling. Look at what happened after the fact, Lita got buried and then fired and they humiliated her on the way out. WWE has the power to make or break careers, look what they did to Mike Kanellis and the shit they made him do. He never recovered from that. It's not as simple as do what they tell you, when you are in the public eye and the shit that you do has a massive effect on how you are perceived by fans and your future career. And wrestling is a creative outlet for a lot of wrestlers, and they want to have a say in their characters and the direction of their careers. I didn't know having live sex was in the job description in being a wrestler for the WWE. And when you look at the biggest stars in wrestling, they usually had a relationship with Vince and worked together coming up with ideas, they had mutual respect and openness to create stuff together.

And yes I've had a job. This has nothing to do with me. I'm not in the public eye. My boss would not ask me to do something I wasn't willing to do within the umbrella of my job description. If my boss asked me to do something that had nothing to do with what I was hired to do, for example if I was hired to be an engineer and my boss asked me to do his fucking laundry I have every right to refuse and he cannot fire me with any justifiable cause.

It's a situation where you do what I tell you no matter what. Your thoughts, your ideas, your convictions they don't matter, just shut the fuck up and do your job. Since when has wrestling operated that way? That's the case for a lot of jobs, I understand that.
 

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I'm not sure there is a part in WWE contracts that says you must do what you are told, no matter what, with no objections whatsoever and if you refuse you shall be terminated. Does WWE have the right to fire someone whenever they want for whatever reason? Yes they do. Is it ethical to fire someone for refusing to do something that goes against their convictions? No it's not. I'm talking ethics here. Not whether WWE can do it or not.

But hey it's far been known that Vince McMahon has no moral compass whatsoever. He's a sick old fuck and that's undisputed and well documented.
 

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It's not that simple in wrestling. I get the stuff about having a job and doing what you are told I totally understand that but it gets complicated in wrestling. Look at what happened after the fact, Lita got buried and then fired and they humiliated her on the way out. WWE has the power to make or break careers, look what they did to Mike Kanellis and the shit they made him do. He never recovered from that. It's not as simple as do what they tell you, when you are in the public eye and the shit that you do has a massive effect on how you are perceived by fans and your future career. And wrestling is a creative outlet for a lot of wrestlers, and they want to have a say in their characters and the direction of their careers. I didn't know having live sex was in the job description in being a wrestler for the WWE. And when you look at the biggest stars in wrestling, they usually had a relationship with Vince and worked together coming up with ideas, they had mutual respect and openness to create stuff together.

It's a situation where you do what I tell you no matter what. Your thoughts, your ideas, your convictions they don't matter, just shut the fuck up and do your job. Since when has wrestling operated that way? That's the case for a lot of jobs, I understand that.
Literally that’s how wrestling has been since forever. There have been maybe a handful of stars who have had input into their careers or the direction of the company and those are the top top level stars who can get away with it because they have tremendous value and the company is willing to put up with their demands because they bring in revenue.

Everyone else is just playing a role that they are assigned. That’s how it works. If they are worried about it effecting their career than they can refuse the job. The company will decide if your worth the trouble and back down or terminate their contract and they can go seek employment elsewhere.

Vince’s only obligation is to put out an entertaining product and make the company financially successful. That’s it. This is business and business doesn’t give a fuck about your feelings.

Lita was being paid to play a role of a hyper-sexualized valet for a guy who’s gimmick is a “Rated R Superstar”. Sexualized skits come with the territory.

This is nothing new in show business. The industry is littered with the bodies of actors/actresses who were written/killed off because they had creative differences or became problems in their role.
 

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Literally that’s how wrestling has been since forever. There have been maybe a handful of stars who have had input into their careers or the direction of the company and those are the top top level stars who can get away with it because they have tremendous value and the company is willing to put up with their demands because they bring in revenue.

Everyone else is just playing a role that they are assigned. That’s how it works. If they are worried about it effecting their career than they can refuse the job. The company will decide if your worth the trouble and back down or terminate their contract and they can go seek employment elsewhere.

Vince’s only obligation is to put out an entertaining product and make the company financially successful. That’s it. This is business and business doesn’t give a fuck about your feelings.

Lita was being paid to play a role of a hyper-sexualized valet for a guy who’s gimmick is a “Rated R Superstar”. Sexualized skits come with the territory.

This is nothing new in show business. The industry is littered with the bodies of actors/actresses who were written/killed off because they had creative differences or became problems in their role.
And yes I've had a job. This has nothing to do with me. I'm not in the public eye. My boss would not ask me to do something I wasn't willing to do within the umbrella of my job description. If my boss asked me to do something that had nothing to do with what I was hired to do, for example if I was hired to be an engineer and my boss asked me to do his fucking laundry I have every right to refuse and he cannot fire me with any justifiable cause.
 

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And yes I've had a job. This has nothing to do with me. I'm not in the public eye. My boss would not ask me to do something I wasn't willing to do within the umbrella of my job description. If my boss asked me to do something that had nothing to do with what I was hired to do, for example if I was hired to be an engineer and my boss asked me to do his fucking laundry I have every right to refuse and he cannot fire me with any justifiable cause.
And what Lita was asked to do was well within her job description. Once again, the character she was playing was a hyper-sexualized valet in a Rated R gimmick. Vince wasn’t telling her to go clean the fucking toilets.

I don’t think you have even the slightest idea how the entertainment industry works. This isn’t an ethics class, it’s a business. Vince makes decisions with Lita the product in mind, not Amy Dumas’ feelings. She has the right to not do the work and Vince has the right to fire her. That’s how it works. Clearly she didn’t feel strongly enough about it to risk losing her job. That was her decision.

WCW gave creative control to certain talent and allowed them to control the direction of the product, how’d that work out?
 

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And what Lita was asked to do was well within her job description. Once again, the character she was playing was a hyper-sexualized valet in a Rated R gimmick. Vince wasn’t telling her to go clean the fucking toilets.

I don’t think you have even the slightest idea how the entertainment industry works. This isn’t an ethics class, it’s a business. Vince makes decisions with Lita the product in mind, not Amy Dumas’ feelings. She has the right to not do the work and Vince has the right to fire her. That’s how it works. Clearly she didn’t feel strongly enough about it to risk losing her job. That was her decision.

WCW gave creative control to certain talent and allowed them to control the direction of the product, how’d that work out?
Sometimes doing the ethical thing is best for business. And that was my whole argument from the start. That what Vince McMahon asked of her was unethical. Had nothing to do with business but you tried to change it up. By definition it is unethical. That was my whole argument, I never brought up any entertainment business stuff. I never disputed the fact that Vince had every right to demand her to do that or to fire her. I'm arguing whether it was morally right to do. It's not and it's just more evidence to add to the mountain of evidence that Vince is morally bankrupt.
 

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F*** This indy flippy shit
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Sometimes doing the ethical thing is best for business. And that was my whole argument from the start. That what Vince McMahon asked of her was unethical. Had nothing to do with business but you tried to change it up. By definition it is unethical. That was my whole argument, I never brought up any entertainment business stuff. I never disputed the fact that Vince had every right to demand her to do that or to fire her. I'm arguing whether it was morally right to do. It's not and it's just more evidence to add to the mountain of evidence that Vince is morally bankrupt.
It has nothing to do with ethics. She’s being paid to play a role. That’s the job. What don’t you grasp about this.

It’s not Vince’s job to design roles around the actor, it’s the actors job to play the role they’ve been hired to play.

Now if Vince told her she’d have to blow him to get the job, then it would be unethical. That’s not the case, she was offered a role to play, either take it or leave it. She chose to take it.
 

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Cena went to bat for someone ? Colour nexus,tensai, bray,nikki,Elias surprised.
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but Cena's gone to bat lots of times for other wrestlers. He was pretty much the only reason Christian even got to have his little mini feud with him in 2005, and was pissed when they drafted him to Smackdown.
 

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Wait...why not? She's effectively an actress on the set of a TV show. If the producers tell you to do "X" and you refuse, you get fired from the show. Are you not aware of how show business works? Is this really that complicated?
I don't comment on here much but I have to say this is a perfect distillation of the kind of mentality that makes the world a shitty, miserable fucking place to live in sometimes & I've never been more happy that this kind of mindset is slowly but surely disappearing from society at large.
 

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It has nothing to do with ethics. She’s being paid to play a role. That’s the job. What don’t you grasp about this.

It’s not Vince’s job to design roles around the actor, it’s the actors job to play the role they’ve been hired to play.

Now if Vince told her she’d have to blow him to get the job, then it would be unethical. That’s not the case, she was offered a role to play, either take it or leave it. She chose to take it.
This is wrong on so many levels, and it makes for a shittier product. A good example is the Roman situation where he was forced to play a baby face which seriously restricted his ability to grow as a talent and realize his full potential. I think it is Vince's job to design roles for his talent that highlight their strengths and put them in situations where they can be used to the maximum possible potential.

I mean Lita practically blew Edge on screen. We don't know what happened under those sheets. She got fully naked. That was softcore porn levels of content. Being sexy is a completely different thing, than putting a legitamate porno on the screen. There are lines crossed here.

My problem wasn't even with the segment itself. I mean I am no snowflake I have seen porn, it wasn't anything that I was offended by or never seen before. It was the fact that she was uncomfortable with doing it, that makes me feel uncomfortable for watching it. Like I don't want to watch someone uncomfortably perform simulated sex. It would be a totally different story if she was actually willing and happy to do it. There is just something dirty about someone doing that to keep their job. I don't know how I can get that through to you.
 
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The Fastest of the Fastest of Jamaican Sprinters
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I don't comment on here much but I have to say this is a perfect distillation of the kind of mentality that makes the world a shitty, miserable fucking place to live in sometimes & I've never been more happy that this kind of mindset is slowly but surely disappearing from society at large.
I don't comment on here much but I have to say this is a perfect distillation of the kind of mentality that makes the world a shitty, miserable fucking place to live in sometimes & I've never been more happy that this kind of mindset is slowly but surely disappearing from society at large.
 
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