Wrestling Forum banner

1 - 20 of 55 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
119 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hey folks. If you could make significant changes to the format, presentation, rules, or anything in pro wrestling to fit in better with a 2020 audience, what would you do? How do you think pro wrestling needs to evolve?

1) Hear me out. It shouldn't be called "pro wrestling". It shouldn't be called Sports Entertainment either. Neither of these names describe what I'm watching in the ring or on TV. The term, "pro wrestling" evolved in the late 1800's/early 1900's, on the back of legitimate amateur wrestling such as Grego roman wrestling, catch-as-catch can wrestling, etc. When the "worked" version of wrestling entered the carnivals, they had to call it something else to differentiate it from the legitimate sports but also make it feel cooler or better than the actual sport. I can't find this documented anywhere but I suspect someone put up their hand and said, "If that stuff over there is called amateur wrestling, we'll call this professional wrestling." -- Not a bad idea for the time. The matches in the ring were more simplistic, less flashy and actually looked like real wrestling authentic "amateur" wrestling matches. More than 100 years later, what we call pro wrestling has evolved entirely. Now we see flashy power moves, aerial moves, a little bit of MMA, running moves, weapons being used, etc. What we're really watching is a freestyle format of fighting. So if I could think outside the box and change anything, I would start calling pro wrestling, Format Freestyle Fighting (Triple F, for short). Bonus: I also feel like the term "pro wrestling" carries a stigma with it now, where casual or non-fans see as a white trash, redneck affair. However, when I talk to these same people about UFC and use the word "fighting", they tend to show more respect. I could be reaching here but I do wonder if getting away from the word "wrestling" would change how it is regarded in society.

2) Next crazy idea, but also hear me out. I think pinfalls should be a 10-count instead of a 3-count. Why? Well it solves a major problem, and also enhances ring psychology. Here's the problem: The whole objective of a match is you either wanna submit your opponent, or do everything you can to weaken your opponent enough to pin their shoulders to the canvas for a count of three. Right? No one disagrees there. Here's where that breaks psychology, especially in 2020. Let's say I give my opponent a body slam and they are laid out on the mat. I then go to the top rope to do a frogsplash. Well here's the issue: It takes minimum 3 seconds just to get on the top rope. Maybe another 3 seconds to jump off and land on the opponent. So if I had my opponent down for a total of 6 seconds without them moving to avoid my aerial move, then why didn't I just pin them in the first place, instead of putting my body at risk with a high-flying maneuver? It doesn't make sense! And these are the little things that help us suspend disbelief. With a pinfall where the referee quickly counts 10 seconds, it now makes sense for a wrestler to body slam their opponent and then go to the top rope. They're trying to keep them down for 10 seconds and they might feel like they're not quite there yet. Finally, there is an enhancement factor. You can tell a better story with a 10-count vs. a 3-count. In the beginning of the match, your opponent might be kicking out at 2 or 3. Midway through the match, now he's kicking out at 5, 6 or 7. Near the end of the match, you have the suspenseful 9-count. Then finally you wear him down enough to get that 10-count pinfall. It's a story of making your opponent weaker and weaker until you win. This is a story everyone can understand. One thing to note: I am not imagining this being a slow ten count like you see when someone's being counted out. I would have the referee count at 1x or 1.5x speed.

3) Getting rid of "geographical-based" championships. Neverstood this. Probably made sense in the days of the territories but it doesn't now. Being the US champ doesn't make you the best in the US. That would have to go to the IC champ who's the best of all the continents including North America, which includes the US, right? Oh wait, but wouldn't the best of all the continents be the world champion though? This is why these midcard titles never get over for any long period of time. They serve no purpose. They don't make you the best at any form of pro wrestling freestyle fighting. I would move towards having a Heavyweight Champion (226+ lbs), a Cruiserweight Champion (225 lbs or less), and an Openweight Champion (anything goes). With belts like this, you are the best in that division. Right now, these geographical belts are for midcard guys, but no one knows where the midcard starts and ends. There's no clear division there.

Those are 3 major ways I would reinvent the industry. Just a start. I'm asking everyone to really think outside the box here and have a fun and creative conversation. Not looking for answers like, "Change to PG-14". That's small potatoes. Look forward to hearing some cool, innovative shit in here! :)

Cheers everyone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,248 Posts
For #2 I've given up on prowrestling fights making any logical sense. You'd have to do a ton more than that to make it make sense.

They only moves that make sense are mat/chain wrestling. Sometimes wrestlers do worked shoots.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,458 Posts
Your second point about wrestlers not going for the pin when they have time to climb the ropes never seemed strange to me.

I mean you can argue the defensive wrestler is just lying there because he isn't being pinned atm and if the offensive wrestler actually tried to pin them, then they would attempt to kick out. Basically the downed wrestler doesn't have the energy to stop the guy going to the top rope, but he has the energy to try to kick out.
 

·
Fearless University Graduate
Joined
·
15,049 Posts
less focus on size and muscles - less focus on promo ability - more on in ring wrestling and good booking -

more focus on the full timers - give me richochet over another hogan comeback - marko stunt over another comeback from the rock - and seth rollins over a steve austin comeback-
You do realise the bolded has already happened right? Thats why ratings are in the toilet and no one watches anymore. Because the product has just become a bunch of average Joe's with zero ability to talk, zero personality, zero ability to emotionally connect with people doing flippy shit and pretending to be MMA fighters. Fake, wannabe MMA fighters, and failed gymnasts will never garner a huge audience because you can watch the real thing. You can watch real MMA, or watch actual gymnastics and see people do shit that make guys like Richochet look like stiff, inflexible bums.

Pro Wrestling needs the larger than life characters, the promos, the storylines to be succesful it needs that stuff to draw people in. Look at everything thats been big in recent times. Its Heel Bryan's character work, its The Fiend, its Chris Jericho. Its not ring work that people rave about, its the characters that make the ring work important. Otherwise you're just watching a bunch of awful actors go out there and awkwardly do some shitty kicks, limp submissions and pointless flips.

Actual, real Pro Wrestling needs the stuff that makes Pro Wrestling, Pro Wrestling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
You do realise the bolded has already happened right? Thats why ratings are in the toilet and no one watches anymore. Because the product has just become a bunch of average Joe's with zero ability to talk, zero personality, zero ability to emotionally connect with people doing flippy shit and pretending to be MMA fighters. Fake, wannabe MMA fighters, and failed gymnasts will never garner a huge audience because you can watch the real thing. You can watch real MMA, or watch actual gymnastics and see people do shit that make guys lie Richochet look like stiff, inflexible bums.

Pro Wrestling needs the larger than life characters, the promos, the storylines to be succesful it needs that stuff to draw people in. Look at everything thats been big in recent times. Its Heel Bryan's character work, its The Fiend, its Chris Jericho. Its not ring work that people rave about, its the characters that make the ring work important. Otherwise you're just watching a bunch of actors go out there and awkwardly do some shitty kicks, limp submissions and pointless flips.

Actual, real Pro Wrestling needs the stuff that makes Pro Wrestling, Pro Wrestling.
Totally agree with you view there. Pro wrestling is all about the character and personality. Prime example was a friend of mine called Barry Gryfiths. Had the look, big man. Got as far as the wwe (wrestled as mason ryan) no mic skills at all. Was cut just as quick as he started. Character is essential
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,339 Posts
You do realise the bolded has already happened right? Thats why ratings are in the toilet and no one watches anymore. Because the product has just become a bunch of average Joe's with zero ability to talk, zero personality, zero ability to emotionally connect with people doing flippy shit and pretending to be MMA fighters. Fake, wannabe MMA fighters, and failed gymnasts will never garner a huge audience because you can watch the real thing. You can watch real MMA, or watch actual gymnastics and see people do shit that make guys like Richochet look like stiff, inflexible bums.

Pro Wrestling needs the larger than life characters, the promos, the storylines to be succesful it needs that stuff to draw people in. Look at everything thats been big in recent times. Its Heel Bryan's character work, its The Fiend, its Chris Jericho. Its not ring work that people rave about, its the characters that make the ring work important. Otherwise you're just watching a bunch of awful actors go out there and awkwardly do some shitty kicks, limp submissions and pointless flips.

Actual, real Pro Wrestling needs the stuff that makes Pro Wrestling, Pro Wrestling.
This exactly is the one thing which Vince has always understood and emphasised on..and unfortunately also the one area where Triple H and Vince differ from...and why NXT is run like an indy show at a high budget and why the present roster is at the state it is, full of Triple H's hires who mostly fail on the main roster...because Vince (for good or bad) had always questionable storylines but its sheer star power and the charisma which got him to where he has.. Triple H's Indy workhorse fascination is only going to keep making things worse.
 

·
Fearless University Graduate
Joined
·
15,049 Posts
Totally agree with you view there. Pro wrestling is all about the character and personality. Prime example was a friend of mine called Barry Gryfiths. Had the look, big man. Got as far as the wwe (wrestled as mason ryan) no mic skills at all. Was cut just as quick as he started. Character is essential
I dont get how some fans deny it. Its so common thesedays to see people act like its ring work or nothing, that the only thing that matters is workrate. Yet there's so much evidence to characters, stories, promos being more important. They're the things that make people invest in a character and want to see them succeed.
 

·
Fearless University Graduate
Joined
·
15,049 Posts
This exactly is the one thing which Vince has always understood and emphasised on..and unfortunately also the one area where Triple H and Vince differ from...and why NXT is run like an indy show at a high budget and why the present roster is at the state it is, full of Triple H's hires who mostly fail on the main roster...because Vince (for good or bad) had always questionable storylines but its sheer star power and the charisma which got him to where he has.. Triple H's Indy workhorse fascination is only going to keep making things worse.
HHH loves hiring one dimensional ring workers and then pretending they're genuine all round Pro Wrestling talents. Look at how much mic time Rollins is given every week, still. Despite the fact he's atrocious on the mic. And that is so common. There's an over abundance of spot monkeys and bugger all real Pro Wrestlers anymore.

Its no coincidence the ratings are in the toilet and Pro Wrestling is so uncool now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,339 Posts
HHH loves hiring one dimensional ring workers and then pretending they're genuine all round Pro Wrestling talents. Look at how much mic time Rollins is given every week, still. Despite the fact he's atrocious on the mic. And that is so common. There's an over abundance of spot monkeys and bugger all real Pro Wrestlers anymore.

Its no coincidence the ratings are in the toilet and Pro Wrestling is so uncool now.
Ya nothing surprising there really.. Triple H has always been mostly about himself even though he likes to portray himself as the savior of the masses these days and everyone hides behind Vince blaming him for each and everything... ? ....Plus, the fact that he took over NXT as a developmental (instead of the previous OVW or whatever it was called), has a significantly higher budget than your usual developmental, gobbles up all the top Indy workers, puts on a program catered to the hardcore with emphasis on workrate, has talents who flop time and again when promoted to the main roster..and you still dont get questioned on the usefulness of NXT as something which is supposed to bridge the gap to the main roster??.. That must be one dream job ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,677 Posts
The womens revolution stuff is completely in tune with modern culture, and is one of the biggest reasons the show sucks. The indie pandering flippy midget pushing thing is very 2010s too. Its not like the show looks and feels like its from the 90s or 00s, if only it did.


(insert obligatory "get off my lawn" here)
 

·
F*** This indy flippy shit
Joined
·
2,006 Posts
Hey folks. If you could make significant changes to the format, presentation, rules, or anything in pro wrestling to fit in better with a 2020 audience, what would you do? How do you think pro wrestling needs to evolve?

1) Hear me out. It shouldn't be called "pro wrestling". It shouldn't be called Sports Entertainment either. Neither of these names describe what I'm watching in the ring or on TV. The term, "pro wrestling" evolved in the late 1800's/early 1900's, on the back of legitimate amateur wrestling such as Grego roman wrestling, catch-as-catch can wrestling, etc. When the "worked" version of wrestling entered the carnivals, they had to call it something else to differentiate it from the legitimate sports but also make it feel cooler or better than the actual sport. I can't find this documented anywhere but I suspect someone put up their hand and said, "If that stuff over there is called amateur wrestling, we'll call this professional wrestling." -- Not a bad idea for the time. The matches in the ring were more simplistic, less flashy and actually looked like real wrestling authentic "amateur" wrestling matches. More than 100 years later, what we call pro wrestling has evolved entirely. Now we see flashy power moves, aerial moves, a little bit of MMA, running moves, weapons being used, etc. What we're really watching is a freestyle format of fighting. So if I could think outside the box and change anything, I would start calling pro wrestling, Format Freestyle Fighting (Triple F, for short). Bonus: I also feel like the term "pro wrestling" carries a stigma with it now, where casual or non-fans see as a white trash, redneck affair. However, when I talk to these same people about UFC and use the word "fighting", they tend to show more respect. I could be reaching here but I do wonder if getting away from the word "wrestling" would change how it is regarded in society.

2) Next crazy idea, but also hear me out. I think pinfalls should be a 10-count instead of a 3-count. Why? Well it solves a major problem, and also enhances ring psychology. Here's the problem: The whole objective of a match is you either wanna submit your opponent, or do everything you can to weaken your opponent enough to pin their shoulders to the canvas for a count of three. Right? No one disagrees there. Here's where that breaks psychology, especially in 2020. Let's say I give my opponent a body slam and they are laid out on the mat. I then go to the top rope to do a frogsplash. Well here's the issue: It takes minimum 3 seconds just to get on the top rope. Maybe another 3 seconds to jump off and land on the opponent. So if I had my opponent down for a total of 6 seconds without them moving to avoid my aerial move, then why didn't I just pin them in the first place, instead of putting my body at risk with a high-flying maneuver? It doesn't make sense! And these are the little things that help us suspend disbelief. With a pinfall where the referee quickly counts 10 seconds, it now makes sense for a wrestler to body slam their opponent and then go to the top rope. They're trying to keep them down for 10 seconds and they might feel like they're not quite there yet. Finally, there is an enhancement factor. You can tell a better story with a 10-count vs. a 3-count. In the beginning of the match, your opponent might be kicking out at 2 or 3. Midway through the match, now he's kicking out at 5, 6 or 7. Near the end of the match, you have the suspenseful 9-count. Then finally you wear him down enough to get that 10-count pinfall. It's a story of making your opponent weaker and weaker until you win. This is a story everyone can understand. One thing to note: I am not imagining this being a slow ten count like you see when someone's being counted out. I would have the referee count at 1x or 1.5x speed.

3) Getting rid of "geographical-based" championships. Neverstood this. Probably made sense in the days of the territories but it doesn't now. Being the US champ doesn't make you the best in the US. That would have to go to the IC champ who's the best of all the continents including North America, which includes the US, right? Oh wait, but wouldn't the best of all the continents be the world champion though? This is why these midcard titles never get over for any long period of time. They serve no purpose. They don't make you the best at any form of pro wrestling freestyle fighting. I would move towards having a Heavyweight Champion (226+ lbs), a Cruiserweight Champion (225 lbs or less), and an Openweight Champion (anything goes). With belts like this, you are the best in that division. Right now, these geographical belts are for midcard guys, but no one knows where the midcard starts and ends. There's no clear division there.

Those are 3 major ways I would reinvent the industry. Just a start. I'm asking everyone to really think outside the box here and have a fun and creative conversation. Not looking for answers like, "Change to PG-14". That's small potatoes. Look forward to hearing some cool, innovative shit in here! :)

Cheers everyone.
#1. No one is going to buy into this. No one. In this day and age, everyone knows pro wrestling is fake. You can try to sell it as MMA or fighting but nobody is going to treat it as such. MMA gets respect because it’s a real sport with real fighting. Pro Wrestling is a lot closer to ballet than it is MMA.

#2. They tried this in Japan back in the 90’s, MMA/Pro Wrestling hybrids. It never became big. I give it even less chance in the United States.

#3. At best maybe you could have a Heavyweight and a Junior Heavyweight division like NJPW. Getting into specific weight classes is going to limit the roster too much. You’d have guys like Braun facing the same 3-4 guys over and over. Besides that having legit weigh-ins would expose the mystique of a lot of these inflated height/weights when most of the roster is going to be in the sub 6’0 200lb range making them even less intimidating than they already are. But most importantly it’s insulting to the audience who knows IT’S FAKE, there is no strength advantage necessitating the weight classes in the first place.

Bottom line, if people want to see a real fight they’ll watch MMA or Boxing. What your describing would have as much credibility in combat sports as the Harlem Globetrotters have in basketball. None.

For wrestling to be popular again, they need big personalities/characters with charisma to draw people in. It’s what has and will always sell.
 

·
Fearless University Graduate
Joined
·
15,049 Posts
ratings dropped because people stopped watching tv and bad booking - book rollins right and he draws the same numbers as anyone else would in his position - hes just as good as austin rock etc - so is bryan - so is richochet -
Just no. I know you don't even believe that. Rollins just as good as Rock and Austin. In no universe is Rollins anywhere near as good as those guys. He's an ant compared to them. Seth Rollins is a lazy and untalented goof who doesn't understand Pro Wrestling. He does spots and thinks that's all it takes, he has zero other talents besides doing spotty shit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
871 Posts
ratings dropped because people stopped watching tv and bad booking - book rollins right and he draws the same numbers as anyone else would in his position - hes just as good as austin rock etc - so is bryan - so is richochet -
I just spilled my coffee reading this. I like rollins but just no please just no dude. Stone cold sold more ppv’s, more merch and broke every single financial record in wwe history. The rock is the biggest mainstream star in history and he transcended pro wrestling. Theres a reason why he is the biggest star in Hollywood today. Austin, rock and the nwo are the biggest draws in wrestling history. I know you like Rollins but common bro. I love becky lynch but I won’t say she’s the biggest draw in history, that would make me delusional. Nobody is a draw today. The only time wwe drew more than 3m viewers this year was when the rock came for the fox premier. Just no dude just no, pls don’t embarrass yourself. No one around me knows who the heck Seth Rollins is but Austin and the rock are house hold names all over the globe.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
871 Posts
ratings dropped because people stopped watching tv and bad booking - book rollins right and he draws the same numbers as anyone else would in his position - hes just as good as austin rock etc - so is bryan - so is richochet -
One more thing Rollins is not even a bigger draw than his fiancé. On the road to mania they were both pushed hard and she still outsold him in merchandise and she gets bigger crowd reactions than him. Becky lynch is more over than Seth Rollins. Ease up with the rock and austin comparison because there’s no comparison.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,879 Posts
1. They already tried this with Sports Entertainment and it went over about as well as any of the other dumb terms they've used. Pro Wrestling is fake fighting, calling it anything else won't change that.

It being wrestling is also pretty integral to the rules. That's why you have pinfalls and rope breaks. You don't get any of that in real freeform fighting.

2. I agree that a lot of high flying moves are dumb - if you're too weak to roll out of the way for several seconds you're too weak to kick out. 10 seconds is much too long for a near-fall though. Maybe just ditch the unrealistic moves.

3. Agree on the problem, disagree on the solution. Rather than getting rid of them I'd say they should make them meaningful and make more of them. If you have a geographical title its stipulated that it can only be defended in that territory.

You could have a European Championship that's defended on tours of Europe, whoever holds it by the end of the tour comes out as European Champion for the next 6 months (or whatever) until the next tour. You could have wrestlers attempt to achieve Grand Slams, e.g. become the United States, Europe, Australia and Saudi Arabia champion simultaneously.

It wouldn't even have to be televised for all of it, give the house shows in these places something meaningful and give wrestlers something to pad their record with without having to hot-shot any title.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
299 Posts
ratings dropped because people stopped watching tv and bad booking - book rollins right and he draws the same numbers as anyone else would in his position - hes just as good as austin rock etc - so is bryan - so is richochet -
If you want pure wrestling and nothing else, watch Ring of Honor or any of the other indies. Nothing wrong with being a fan of the wrestling and nothing else but WWE was never like that.

The generation that grew up after the rock and roll and attitude era just dont understand what made wrestling popular to begin with and its only going to get worse.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
119 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
#1. No one is going to buy into this. No one. In this day and age, everyone knows pro wrestling is fake. You can try to sell it as MMA or fighting but nobody is going to treat it as such. MMA gets respect because it’s a real sport with real fighting. Pro Wrestling is a lot closer to ballet than it is MMA.

#2. They tried this in Japan back in the 90’s, MMA/Pro Wrestling hybrids. It never became big. I give it even less chance in the United States.

#3. At best maybe you could have a Heavyweight and a Junior Heavyweight division like NJPW. Getting into specific weight classes is going to limit the roster too much. You’d have guys like Braun facing the same 3-4 guys over and over. Besides that having legit weigh-ins would expose the mystique of a lot of these inflated height/weights when most of the roster is going to be in the sub 6’0 200lb range making them even less intimidating than they already are. But most importantly it’s insulting to the audience who knows IT’S FAKE, there is no strength advantage necessitating the weight classes in the first place.

Bottom line, if people want to see a real fight they’ll watch MMA or Boxing. What your describing would have as much credibility in combat sports as the Harlem Globetrotters have in basketball. None.

For wrestling to be popular again, they need big personalities/characters with charisma to draw people in. It’s what has and will always sell.
Hey! Thanks for the response! I'm gonna try to play devil's advocate on a couple things. :)

1) Let me be clear right off the bat. I wouldn't be interested in trying to sell it/present it as MMA. I think the appeal of this product should be the larger than life characters, the storylines and the drama in and out of the ring. Pro wrestling is a never ending story that's being told week over week. It's easier to believe/invest in the shenanigans if you have a solid foundation with very few holes in logic. In this point, I'm simply proposing that we call the product something that makes more sense and is updated with the times. If you step back and look at the term from a semantics point of view, the term "pro wrestling" actually doesn't make sense at all. We can all agree that we are watching a product that is a formatted freestyle form of fighting. There is more fighting in a typical match in 2019 than there is legit wrestling. So why not call it Format Freestyle Fighting. The word, "format" has a double entendre to it. In kayfabe, each "fight" follows a format (takes place in a ring, has certain rules, certain ways to win, there's a time limit, etc.). Outside of kayfabe, it is a formatted (or choreographed) fight. The words, "freestyle fighting" are self-explanatory. You can use any move-set to defeat your opponent. Almost any means of attacking your opponent is on the table. Hence, it is freestyle. So all I'm talking about is semantics and what we refer to this industry as. How the product is presented is completely on the promotor of the fed. But I do agree, if you presented it as a straight up fake MMA event, that would for sure fail.

2) I wasn't aware that they tried a 10-count in Japan. That's cool. I wonder why it failed. I'd be curious. I'd also recognize that Japanese fans are far different than North American fans so I wouldn't always use Japan as a pulse for what can and can't get over here. Again, I just think the 10-count pinfall would clear up a lot of psychology issues and add a new element to each match.

3) This is the point that I love debating with friends. That's the first response I get when I suggest splitting everyone into Cruiserweight and Heavyweight: "It will get boring. So-n-so fighting the same guy over and over. We'll never get to see Brock vs. Rey Mysterio. Etc, etc." -- Allow me to disagree and explain! So first of all, raising the cruiserweight limit to 225 lbs makes sense. If you look at the definitions of these weight classes on Wikipedia, Cruiserweight is actually supposed to be for 225 lbs. Second, I disagree that there would not be enough opponents to go around for everyone. Check out this chart of who would be in each division:
divisions_wre.png

There are 50 main roster talents in each division. This doesn't even include all the NXT guys. I think you could have fresh matches and feuds for years. On top of all that, don't forget the "Openweight Championship" that I mentioned. I could see this taking the place of the current world title. If you hold this, you can beat anyone on the roster in spite of weight. I would much prefer having these 3 champions over a World title, an IC title and a US title. You're just slapping names of places on a belt and trying to make it mean something, and that's why these belts always become irrelevant.

Cheers!
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,365 Posts
People need to stop using the current year as an excuse to be soft. That's one thing I'd like to see changed in wrestling.
 
1 - 20 of 55 Posts
Top