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Discussion Starter #1
A show needs veterans, moreso than young guys in a lot of cases. They are the obvious draws, the guys who will be the guys to initially attract new viewers to the show most likely. But does the TNA fanbase (not as much TNA itself as they at least appreciate their young guys in general) seem to try too much to justify their position in contrast to the young guys?

I am going to say it right here and now, none of the veterans in TNA except Angle, Hogan, and Sting are actually good enough to be considered a tier above the young guys, much less be able to carry a company. Provided, most of them have an actual character and charisma, but the majority of the TNA veterans lack one attribute that the main event WWE veterans have, presense.

I personally beleive Cena, Undertaker, Orton, HHH, Jericho, and Big Show are justified as uppercard/main event fixtures firmly because the fans have accepted them as figures who stand FAR above the midcard. All of them have a presense that has the fans subconsciously recognize them as extraordaniry figures through them being bigger, more badass, and/or downright obvously more competent ring performers compared to their competition.

Aside from the TNA veterans I outlined, can we as fans naturally accept ANY of the other veterans as above the younger guys in their respective divisions as fact? We KNOW Cena could (and very likely would) hand the Miz his ass on a plate in a typical matchup just by looking at the two currently; do you truly beleive that we as fans can subconsciously accept matchups like Team 3D vs BMI or the MCMGs, Nash vs. Hernandez, Terry, or Samoa Joe, RVD/Hardy vs. Anderson, Abyss, Morgan, Lethal, or Pope, Flair vs Anyone outside the X-Division, or the ECW guys vs. anybody in mainstream wrestling as horribly lopsided matchups in favor of the veterans?

If the answer is no, do they truly need to be protected more than the young guys? Considering how few gems there are in professional wrestling, wouldn't basing the show around old guys who don't really have true star power (i.e. larger than life presense compared to the rest of the guys on the roster) at the expense of putting in the resources to find and establish that young guy who CAN be the gem be a rather costly idea? TNA at least has an excuse in terms of financial stability and HAS to go with what is proven. But why are many TNA fans so quick to disregard young guys with potential over older guys who have hit their ceiling for the most part? Why exactly get rid of a guy with potential to be a future world champ like Morgan, Pope, or Wolfe over a guy like Nash, somebody who clearly can't compete for a top title, who's only good attribute is mic skills, which is something a LOT easier to find than the coveted "IT" factor?
 

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List of good veterans in TNA

Sting
Flair
Hogan (only as a on-screen character but no more matches)
Angle
RVD
Foley
Nash
Jarrett
RVD
Hardy (though he's still in his early 30s)
Team 3D - ONLY AS A TEAM

List of pieces of shit that should go jump off a bridge

Tommy Dreamer
Raven - he was talented in his prime but he never made it past jobber status so he's useless
Stevie Richards
Rhino
Shannon Moore
Orlando Jordan
 

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Outside of Sting, Hogan, and Flair I don't think the TNA veterans have a big presense because TNA doesen't market well. I don't really no for sure, but that is my opinion.
 

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what are you talking about- the reason Nash still has a job os because he does have the it factor. Thats all he has, he cant wrestle. Mic skills are a big part of the 'it'. being a 7 foot ripped monster who can destroy people verbally is 'it' . Why? because professional wrestling is about characters, and matches are secondary. But I don't really see a problem with how the roster is currently.

Pope, Morgan and Anderson are doing fine and in prime positions- because they also have the it factor. They are doing it, I don't see the complaint with them. The guns and Beer money are having big matches for titles, they are doing fine. As usual it goes back to 3 guys- Joe, Aj and Desmond wolfe. Joe and AJ will never be huge stars no matter how many chances they get, titles, #1 PWI rankings whatever, Because they aren't the total package. Aj has zero creativity of character and stutters on national TV, and Joe is a dumpy guy whos pants don't fit right. Mediocre on the mic. Neither of those guys have any it factor, thats why they can't stick as top top guys. all they have is wrestling,and everything else is just ok. Unfortunately the 'everything else' is what's important to a TV based product. And then there's wofle who is just too new, and people are just being impatient. but he'll be fine.

Anyway, there are some vets there, but RVD can still go, and Hardy is younger than a lot of these TNA 'young guys' he's like 33. otherwise, I think the cream is in the process of rising to the top, and dont see anyone getting held down by guys that are too old.
 

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My problem isn't with veterans in general it's with veterans that can't work because they cant work. Like I honestly don't date Scott Hall anymore than I do Big Rob. Just because he can't work. I do have problems with worthless veterans beign pushed based on the fact they were in WWE. Like for instance, Kendrick, he's decent but he's no better than say...Amazing Red yet he gets like 300 title shots. Orlando Jordan looked like he was gonna get the Global Title..does he really deserve that more than a say..Eric Young. EY fueding with Big Rob would've given him something productive to do rather than just carry belts around for the Band.

Veterans around the problems, it's veterans getting pushed that can't work over talented young guys that can is the problem. Flair at Victory Road was the perfect use a veteran
 

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Discussion Starter #6
what are you talking about- the reason Nash still has a job os because he does have the it factor. Thats all he has, he cant wrestle. Mic skills are a big part of the 'it'. being a 7 foot ripped monster who can destroy people verbally is 'it' . Why? because professional wrestling is about characters, and matches are secondary. But I don't really see a problem with how the roster is currently.

Pope, Morgan and Anderson are doing fine and in prime positions- because they also have the it factor. They are doing it, I don't see the complaint with them. The guns and Beer money are having big matches for titles, they are doing fine. As usual it goes back to 3 guys- Joe, Aj and Desmond wolfe. Joe and AJ will never be huge stars no matter how many chances they get, titles, #1 PWI rankings whatever, Because they aren't the total package. Aj has zero creativity of character and stutters on national TV, and Joe is a dumpy guy whos pants don't fit right. Mediocre on the mic. Neither of those guys have any it factor, thats why they can't stick as top top guys. all they have is wrestling,and everything else is just ok. Unfortunately the 'everything else' is what's important to a TV based product. And then there's wofle who is just too new, and people are just being impatient. but he'll be fine.

Anyway, there are some vets there, but RVD can still go, and Hardy is younger than a lot of these TNA 'young guys' he's like 33. otherwise, I think the cream is in the process of rising to the top, and dont see anyone getting held down by guys that are too old.
The IT factor to me is a quality that makes the fans subconsciously recognize you as a downright extraordinary figure. Compare how many guys that came since Brock left can cut a good promo (not a lot but double digits) to how many that have that intangible factor of being an apex talent through how they merely carry themselves (less than I can count on two hands). As far as I am concerned, mic skills are only hugely beneficial for the guys who come off as belonging in the uppercard, presense and charisma wise. Just because guys do not need to be Bret Hart, Benoit, Regal, Eddie, or Malenko in terms of ring skill doesn't mean that they can be excused for comming off as weaker then their competition in this day and age.

I would hope that nobody would be stupid enough to book Nash to go cleanly over Joe or Hernandez for example in the culmination of a hypothetical personal rivalry just because he is better on the mic and has an established character, despite absolutely being outclassed in terms of ring competence and presense, in both real life AND kayfabe, to the point that ANYONE can see Joe/Hernandez are downright better than him. Nash can squash Tomko, Red, Homicide, as the like since they suck in terms of mainstream appeal, but the idea that Nash is good enough as an all around performer to be more regarded, in terms of ability to contribute to the product, than a badass like Joe just because he has better mic skill, and a better character (which had a MANY year head start) ignoring his non-existant in-ring abilities is downright absurd. And booking Nash in a managerial role that doesn't have him compete makes him even LESS valuable compared to talented young guys with much room to develop.

The thread was addressing the TNA fanbase moreso than the company itself. Samoa Joe hase a quality about him that conveys a character through his movements, expressions, intensity, and abilities. Nash is one of the best talkers, but he can't wrestle (or even merely perform) for shit, definitely not well enough to justify him being more regarded in this day and age than Joe, Hernandez, Pope, Wolfe, and others (depending on the fan of course) even with his mic advantages. Not all of the biggest draws in American Pro Wrestling had great mic skills (Ultimate Warrior, Goldberg, and Lesnar); however, ALL of them had an extraordinary presense that made them rise above their peers in the fans eyes that didn't need to have the guys talk in order to be apparent.

I also dislike how the whole mic skill argument gets brushed aside for the veterans because of their past successes. If Hardy's and RVD's presense has been proven to not draw ratings by themselves, why exactly should they be booked stronger than guys who are comparable or better in terms of overall presense, charisma, and ability? At least Cena is outright better than the young guys, so him getting strong booking at least makes sense. Why should any veteran other than Kurt Angle and Sting get stronger booking than the (good) young guys if their ceiling has already been reached and is located lower than where an uppercarder/main eventer needs to be when TNA can use some of that booking to further cultivate their crop of young guys in search of the IT factor?



Note, TNA IS doing a good job in exposing their top younger prospects. I just dislike supporting the idea of booking the veterans ahead of them if said veterans are already missing qualities that can actually make them a draw for TNA and are past their peak just because of nostalgia.
 

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good in ring:
Angle
RVD
Possibly Sting when hes healed up

Good on the mic:
Flair
Sting
Nash

I'll hold judgement on the ECW guys at the moment as we'll see how the perform in the coming weeks.
 

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I am going to say it right here and now, none of the veterans in TNA except Angle, Hogan, and Sting are actually good enough to be considered a tier above the young guyshave, presense.


Aside from the TNA veterans I outlined, can we as fans naturally accept ANY of the other veterans as above the younger guys in their respective divisions as fact?
I actually like the fact that most veterans aren't looked at like that. It makes for better competition and less predictable matches. Or at least it's suppose too.
 

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I fail to see where any veteran is super protected against anyone. I don't know where this comes from with the IWC and all the veteran hate. TNA has balanced older veterans, prime veterans, and up coming talent pretty well I believe.
 

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I also dislike how the whole mic skill argument gets brushed aside for the veterans because of their past successes. If Hardy's and RVD's presense has been proven to not draw ratings by themselves, why exactly should they be booked stronger than guys who are comparable or better in terms of overall presense, charisma, and ability? At least Cena is outright better than the young guys, so him getting strong booking at least makes sense. Why should any veteran other than Kurt Angle and Sting get stronger booking than the (good) young guys if their ceiling has already been reached and is located lower than where an uppercarder/main eventer needs to be when TNA can use some of that booking to further cultivate their crop of young guys in search of the IT factor?



Note, TNA IS doing a good job in exposing their top younger prospects. I just dislike supporting the idea of booking the veterans ahead of them if said veterans are already missing qualities that can actually make them a draw for TNA and are past their peak just because of nostalgia.

I hear you- I don't think it is really the vets fault, or the younger guys fault. It is simply the fact that TNA isn't big enough to expose the talents. Put John Cena In TNA and see what happens. They will definitely get a quick ratings boom, and maybe it would stick, but probably not. These mega superstars are huge because they have the WWE (or in the past WCW) marketing machine behind them. And it is not always because of angle booking or their talents, but because there faces are on billboards, sitcoms, and saturday night live. people see that and they become stars. especially kids, they are suckers for advertising. If the People in TNA were exposed on a level comparable to WWE, I think you would see both younger guys get big, and some vets regain some past glory. They really need a major expansion to even be able determine who has what it takes to be a real major league superstar. We really don't know who's ceiling has been reached, and what old guys still have it, as far as fan interest. They dont even have merch sales to go on, because their stuff is shit, and doesn't sell. All TNA has to go on is the impact zone reaction, and teh interwebz. and whether their rating jumps from a 0.9 to a 1.1 for a particular segment, which really isn't a good indicator, unless you think the beautiful people should be headlining PPV's. you cant judge by internet fan reaction either, or else you would think everyone from ROH is a superstar waiting to happen, and be out of business in 6 months.
 

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its nice for nostalgia purposes to see guys like Flair, Dreamer, Sting, as long as they arnt embarrassingly bad im all for it! id happily watch Sid or Buff Bagwell get one more run
 

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List of pieces of shit that should go jump off a bridge

Tommy Dreamer
Raven - he was talented in his prime but he never made it past jobber status so he's useless
Rhino
All better than your boy Bagwell.

Raven is a former US Champion, ECW Champion, and the winningest WWF Hardcore Champion, in an era watched by millions. Oh and his debut pop in the WWE was louder than any reaction Bagwell got in WWE combined. You could take the crowd reaction for his entire match with Booker T, add up the decibels and it still wouldn't hold a candle to the so called "jobber".


As for the OP, I agree to an extent. There are guys (Flair) that have shit to offer promowise and if they are willing to put forth the effor unlike some (Hogan) then it's all good.
 

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wasn't my list, i like having those guys around! i was saying im all for workers that arn't on the top of there game getting another chance!
 

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^ I was talking to him, not you. He once posted a thread naming a bunch of broken down hasbeens he wanted to come to TNA.
 

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I've never understood the dislike towards the veterans; I read it somewhere else but it was a very good point, if there was no name power and no veterans then TNA would just be ROH and fail to survive on mainstream television. Plus TNA balances out their veterans and youger guys very well. For instance the current Nash/Jarrett feud is a mid card feud, these guys are former WCW Champions but Jay Lethal is higher on the card. They are great to have around, they are familiar faces for casual fans and can help younger workers through matches, plus most of them are good on a mic and have a history which works well when incorporated in their storylines.
 

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I've never understood the dislike towards the veterans; I read it somewhere else but it was a very good point, if there was no name power and no veterans then TNA would just be ROH and fail to survive on mainstream television. Plus TNA balances out their veterans and youger guys very well. For instance the current Nash/Jarrett feud is a mid card feud, these guys are former WCW Champions but Jay Lethal is higher on the card. They are great to have around, they are familiar faces for casual fans and can help younger workers through matches, plus most of them are good on a mic and have a history which works well when incorporated in their storylines.
except for the fact that they were hitting the same ratings (at some times even a little higher) before all of the veterans came in...I swear to god TNA brainwashes all of their fans to think that all the veterans are mighty saviors and all the originals are lowly peasants. Having top tier veterans is fine like Angle and Sting but when you have shitty veterans like Nash, Orlando Jordan, Nasty Boys, Tommy Dreamer, Team 3D etc. no one gives 2 shits about them and it just lowers the quality of the product and just makes people tune out. If these veterans were so important to TNA's success why have they had the same ratings for the last 4 years? Because NO ONE CARES.

And "balance" would be mixing in a couple veterans to grab casual fans' attention, TNA hires every mother fucking WWE/WCW/ECW wrestler they can get their hands on to the point where they usually have more veterans on the card than their own wrestlers. To me personally, half and half is NOT a good balance
 

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What exactly is wrong with Rhyno? Did he spontaneously combust? Fall off the face of the earth? He's only 34 and can still move and work a match and be a compelling monster.

If he gored the bejesus out of Abyss and took over the monster slot TNA would only be that much better for it.

Jump off a bridge, my ass. He's clearly squandered talent and the only guy in this ECW thing that I care to see wrestle.
 

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Rhino is a very good talent to have around. If beeing 34 makes you a washed up vet then Jericho, Christian, Hernandez and Morgan are also washed up has beens because they're around the same age or older. He can wrestle decently and has great mic skills plus has a very intense style that works.
 

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If you look at the rating it would seem that TNA's fanbase doesn't have an obsession with veterans at all, if they did then the ratings numbers would be bigger, the ppv's would sell more and their'd be more mainstream hype arounf the product.
 
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