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It's been over saturated for years so hard to do something new any more.
Think to any TV show, no matter how good it is, eventually the idea gets old and the show gets cancelled.
 

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It's visibly been on the decline since 2001 as people have suggested. Since then, Vince McMahon hasn't really needed to create stars since his promotion can be the star. When he has someone breathing down his neck and he needs to beat them, that's when he goes into pro-wrestling mode and actually taps into what works.

Buuuut, the monkey paw wish was granted on October 19, 1999. That's when they started publicly trading. It made Vince McMahon a lot of money to play football and studio executive, but it meant that wrestling was always going to be at the whim of its stock price. Vince McMahon can't whisk that third hour away from Raw, even though he knows it's death, because it takes half-a-billion dollars out of the hands of his investors. They don't care if Raw sucks or if house shows are down. Not really. Not until losing money on house shows or Raw sucking begins to affect their bottom line.

The best bet for wrestling being wrestling again is for someone with money who takes it seriously to find a way to present it in a way that appeals to wrestling fans instead of investors. You're not going to get that from AEW. The best bet is either another billionaire gets involved because they see the potential money from TV rights fees, or Vince McMahon gets hella bored and decides to start another wrestling promotion that is not going to run like WWE, because he does know the flaws in it, and he can run a sports entertainment volume business and a hot little professional wrestling company away from it that generates revenue without being publicly traded. I can't imagine investors being too happy about that, lol. But hell, the wording of his contract suggests that he shouldn't have really been able to get away with the XFL either.

The Alpha Wrestling Federation to be pro-wrestling to WWE's sports entertainment. Doesn't seem possible, but Vince has tried to be his competition before.

Actually, it would be funny if Vince McMahon sold off his majority stock in WWE, or sold the company to Amazon or whatever the latest rumor is, then used his XFL money to start a new wrestling promotion. Kind of like what the Fullers used to do with wrestling territories.
 

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F*** This indy flippy shit
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I’ve said it before but as a gay wrestling fan I think it’s time WWE introduces more LGBTQ+ wrestlers and storylines. It’s a hot topic today and would bring in many new fans from the LGBTQ+ community
That would be a major business risk with little reward.

You are talking about what, maybe 2% of the worlds population of which maybe a fraction are wrestling fans.

vs the damage that could be caused by losing your core demographic.

Get woke, go broke hasn’t exactly turned out well for Hollywood. I doubt WWE pro wrestling would be much different.
 

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Wrestling is like comic books. They're now merely a farm for Hollywood to pluck extraordinary talent/names out of and milk to a wider audience. People who watch comic book movies don't actually read comic books, and people who watch the The Rock or Batista or Cena in movies are never actually gonna watch a single episode of wrestling.

And just like with wrestling, it's steeped in nostalgia; the only comic book stories anyone ever cites or remembers are comics from the "old days". People remember Gwen Stacy dying. Nobody ever remembers any of the Spider-Man stories after 1990.
 

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I don't pay much attention to the Bray, Seth, Becky, Corbin or the wrestlers they push that bore me.

Watching mostly for Drew/Brock and Randy/Edge.
 

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IMO ten years ago booking was better than it is today but the in-ring talent is much better now. 10 years ago we also had this 'start-stop push' booking nonsense but not as much as we have today.
 

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THE MAN has come around to collect her debts.
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Its not losing it, its lost it. Pro Wrestling, actual Pro Wrestling has been replaced by a bunch of failed gymnasts doing a stunt routine.

Actual Pro Wrestling is nearly dead. Characters, Promos, Drama, Feuds, Stories, all largely things of the past now, replaced by charisma blackholes with the personality of a plank of wood doing flips. Anyone who actually fits the mold of a real Pro Wrestler gets nowhere thesedays.
This. There’s also the fact that WWE refuses to pivot away from tradition. It’s the same format over and over.

1.) EVERY heel has to be a chickenshit.
2.) EVERY tag match has to flow the same with one guy being isolated for half the match.
3.) EVERY babyface has to be vanilla and has to fit a certain “I’m doing this for the WWE Universe” mold.
4.) EVERY heel that does something crazy “Doesn’t owe us an explanation”
5.) Championship contenders always have to be determined by random ass multiman matches.
6.) Every character is one dimensional and isn’t allowed to explore different parts to their character.
7.) EVERY multi man brawl has to result on in a huge 6 man tag. For example instead of the huge 8 man tag from this weeks RAW, why not have The Vikings face AOP in a street fight instead?

I could go on and on. I think people are just getting tired of the same old format for every show. Change it up a little bit, it won’t hurt.
 

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Wrestling is like comic books. They're now merely a farm for Hollywood to pluck extraordinary talent/names out of and milk to a wider audience. People who watch comic book movies don't actually read comic books, and people who watch the The Rock or Batista or Cena in movies are never actually gonna watch a single episode of wrestling.

And just like with wrestling, it's steeped in nostalgia; the only comic book stories anyone ever cites or remembers are comics from the "old days". People remember Gwen Stacy dying. Nobody ever remembers any of the Spider-Man stories after 1990.
Exactly. It's all nostalgia.

In 2001, all the bandwagoners (because, let's face it, that's what they were) left wrestling entirely and moved onto MMA, and why? Because they were never into wrestling, but rather the proverbial cool factor of seeing Austin fuck with McMahon like they wished they could do with their bosses, the Rock with his natural charisma, and the T&A like Trish and Sable.

None of them gave a damn about workrate, smarks/anti-smarks, etc. They just watched it like it was just another action movie.

People who think "casuals" were driven away by pandering to smarks fail to realize that casuals all left in 2001, leaving only the smarks and those who couldn't let go, hence why we see YWC channels like the Smarkbusters whose whole schtick is cringily whining about the former.

As Eva MaRIHyse said, actual wrestling is pretty much gone. It's just a spotfest, no different from those backyard wrestling channels on YouTube, but at least those guys have an excuse to be generic. It doesn't help that society these days is far different from that which Vinny Mac addresed in his introduction to the Attitude Era, and that no one wants a repeat of Chris Benoit to happen. I sometimes wonder if the WWE will last long after VKM's death simply because I assume a lot of skeletons will be shown off, not just that of Snuka's girlfriend, but that's for another discussion, I suppose.

At any rate, wrestling lost its quality in 2001 (the botched Invasion angle pretty much was the final nail) and everything since is just an inevitable descent to the bottom.

Within five years, AEW will probably be seen as just another TNA, and maybe the XFL coming back will be interpreted as Vince seeing the writing on the wall as Bobby Heenan did about wrestling and wanting to get out while he could.
 

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Exactly. It's all nostalgia.

In 2001, all the bandwagoners (because, let's face it, that's what they were) left wrestling entirely and moved onto MMA, and why? Because they were never into wrestling, but rather the proverbial cool factor of seeing Austin fuck with McMahon like they wished they could do with their bosses, the Rock with his natural charisma, and the T&A like Trish and Sable.

None of them gave a damn about workrate, smarks/anti-smarks, etc. They just watched it like it was just another action movie.

People who think "casuals" were driven away by pandering to smarks fail to realize that casuals all left in 2001, leaving only the smarks and those who couldn't let go, hence why we see YWC channels like the Smarkbusters whose whole schtick is cringily whining about the former.

As Eva MaRIHyse said, actual wrestling is pretty much gone. It's just a spotfest, no different from those backyard wrestling channels on YouTube, but at least those guys have an excuse to be generic. It doesn't help that society these days is far different from that which Vinny Mac addresed in his introduction to the Attitude Era, and that no one wants a repeat of Chris Benoit to happen. I sometimes wonder if the WWE will last long after VKM's death simply because I assume a lot of skeletons will be shown off, not just that of Snuka's girlfriend, but that's for another discussion, I suppose.

At any rate, wrestling lost its quality in 2001 (the botched Invasion angle pretty much was the final nail) and everything since is just an inevitable descent to the bottom.

Within five years, AEW will probably be seen as just another TNA, and maybe the XFL coming back will be interpreted as Vince seeing the writing on the wall as Bobby Heenan did about wrestling and wanting to get out while he could.
You're right about people being driven away in 2001. The Austin heel turn did a lot of damage. Popularity was already waning due to Triple H's sex stink in the second half of 2000 and some baffling creative decisions. But when you drive away the casuals you are left with only smarks, and that is a problem.
 

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People remember Gwen Stacy dying. Nobody ever remembers any of the Spider-Man stories after 1990.
Most comic readers remember The Clone Saga and Brand New Day though, even if it's more akin to how everybody still remembers 9/11, Chernobyl or any other tragedy than anything resembling proper nostalgia :geek:.
 

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Yup. The Spidey clone saga is remembered like Bayley This is Your Life or Bobby Lashley's sisters.
 

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You're right about people being driven away in 2001. The Austin heel turn did a lot of damage. Popularity was already waning due to Triple H's sex stink in the second half of 2000 and some baffling creative decisions. But when you drive away the casuals you are left with only smarks, and that is a problem.
Though not as obvious as the peak cartoon era (1991). I think they did a relatively good job of bringing in a millions kids and soccer mothers during the peak commercial years of John Cena (2007-2009). That's quite the feat after Katie Vick, HLA and a live sex celebration. The established babyface roster was a strong support system (Taker, DX, Batista, Hardy).

Problem is the new era (2016-) is just like the New Generation (1994-1997). A sticking plaster. Reigns, Rollins, Balor and Strowman haven't been able to attract a new wave of fans. Not noticeably, at least. Plus, the 6+ hours of live TV/4 hour PPVs/network shows and some really bad booking decisions has outweighed any progress.
 

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WWF promoted the pre-existing characters of Hogan and Warrior.

They created Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, and Undertaker on their own.

Then they had the Attitude Era with Russo/Ferrara writing the scripts creating stars all over the card.

And now they haven’t produced 1 undisputed mainstream babyface character since Vince, Stephanie and HHH moulded the company in their creative image in 2001. Sure, people still cared about the previously made stars, but that wasn’t their doing.

Their “delusional heel main event” character has been a successful copy and paste formula for Vince/HHH, I’ll give them that.

But since Russo/Ferrara stopped writing the script, I can’t think of 1 universally adored main event babyface they’ve written and sustained for longer than 12 months.
 

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You're right about people being driven away in 2001. The Austin heel turn did a lot of damage. Popularity was already waning due to Triple H's sex stink in the second half of 2000 and some baffling creative decisions. But when you drive away the casuals you are left with only smarks, and that is a problem.
I don't disagree with that at all. Problem is that I don't see how they can fix it, because why would a casual come back now when there's so much to choose from entertainment-wise?
 

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Though not as obvious as the peak cartoon era (1991). I think they did a relatively good job of bringing in a millions kids and soccer mothers during the peak commercial years of John Cena (2007-2009). That's quite the feat after Katie Vick, HLA and a live sex celebration. The established babyface roster was a strong support system (Taker, DX, Batista, Hardy).

Problem is the new era (2016-) is just like the New Generation (1994-1997). A sticking plaster. Reigns, Rollins, Balor and Strowman haven't been able to attract a new wave of fans. Not noticeably, at least. Plus, the 6+ hours of live TV/4 hour PPVs/network shows and some really bad booking decisions has outweighed any progress.
Great take. Bad booking doesn't help. Vince needs to get over his "the brand is the star" mentality and heat his shit up so he can have some stars. You need to have a reason people go to these house shows, watch that TV you're getting paid for, and now you've got the money to justify it.

They are trying now on Raw, I believe. Drew McIntyre is the guy. They're still in on Becky. Murphy has been getting a lot of attention. Owens, Joe & The Vikings are those supporting players. Angel Garza has something. Aleister Black is bubbling underneath. Cool, but you've also burnt people out on your product and now there are trust issues there.

I don't disagree with that at all. Problem is that I don't see how they can fix it, because why would a casual come back now when there's so much to choose from entertainment-wise?
That's a good point. A lot of people who stop watching are just going to be done. And there aren't an infinite amount of people who can potentially get fans.

You've got to get people talking, and that means just hitting the right cultural nerve and/or doing something so big that you're going to cast that wide net. WrestleMania on FOX is a good advertisement for you, because people would watch -- you've just got to make the show good and have some stars coming out of it.

On a big front, you've really got Steve Austin coming back, and that's tenuous at best.

I honestly don't know why they haven't turned Roman Reigns heel at this point. There's no need for him to be a babyface and he'd become the coolest motherfucker on the planet. There hasn't been a top face that's turned heel since Austin in 2001, which no one wanted. The time before that was arguably Rock. Just give it a shot.
 

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That's a good point. A lot of people who stop watching are just going to be done. And there aren't an infinite amount of people who can potentially get fans.

You've got to get people talking, and that means just hitting the right cultural nerve and/or doing something so big that you're going to cast that wide net. WrestleMania on FOX is a good advertisement for you, because people would watch -- you've just got to make the show good and have some stars coming out of it.

On a big front, you've really got Steve Austin coming back, and that's tenuous at best.

I honestly don't know why they haven't turned Roman Reigns heel at this point. There's no need for him to be a babyface and he'd become the coolest motherfucker on the planet. There hasn't been a top face that's turned heel since Austin in 2001, which no one wanted. The time before that was arguably Rock. Just give it a shot.
They really should've turned Cena heel at some point - I know it's cliche to say, but it would've helped, I think.

As for stars in general? Peyton Manning unwittingly summed up their lack of brand awareness when he said: "John Cena is an athlete the same way that Ryan Lochte is a reliable witness."

When even your biggest name in years is essentially a nobody to the public and is used as the punchline of a joke, there's a real problem.

Just like shareholder-enforced mediocrity is. It's one thing to make a new star, another to give him the environment to shine, and in this day and age, can a guy really grip the audience without offending somebody, somehow? Doesn't help when you take promising gimmicks and neuter them for whatever reason.
 

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They really should've turned Cena heel at some point - I know it's cliche to say, but it would've helped, I think.

As for stars in general? Peyton Manning unwittingly summed up their lack of brand awareness when he said: "John Cena is an athlete the same way that Ryan Lochte is a reliable witness."

When even your biggest name in years is essentially a nobody to the public and is used as the punchline of a joke, there's a real problem.

Just like shareholder-enforced mediocrity is. It's one thing to make a new star, another to give him the environment to shine, and in this day and age, can a guy really grip the audience without offending somebody, somehow? Doesn't help when you take promising gimmicks and neuter them for whatever reason.
I was completely on that boat for a long time, but with the aid of retrospect, I actually respectfully disagree. Keeping Cena babyface meant something. He helped really legitimize the WWE in certain ways. He completely turned around their PR. His charity work and squeaky clean image may have led to ratings going down, but this is a big part of Vince's current deals and how he can ask for these giant rights fees. I mean, it's not exclusively Cena -- the death of television definitely contributes -- but Cena has made WWE "safe" for consumption.

Roman Reigns is not the same guy. He was rejected way faster and way harder with the extra burden of people knowing that Vince can be stubborn and will stick to this. He hasn't been anywhere near the mover and shaker that Cena was/is and for whatever reason, Vince himself has been more tepid about smashing him over. Cena didn't lose to Triple H or Shawn Michaels. Roman Reigns did lose to Seth and Brock.

And we're in a slightly different time. We're in a time where WWE has the rights money. They have the image. They don't need Reigns to be a hero to the kids in the same way they really wanted Cena to be. And we're even further away from kayfabe, where guys like Reigns and Cena can be heels on-screen and then go and do charity work anyway. I don't like that element, but you can actually imagine Cena playing a heel now, because it would be him showing off his versatility, as opposed to betraying everything John Cena was about.

Personally, I just don't see a convincing reason not to do it with Reigns. They're holding back on him so that he doesn't get booed. So...what's the point of him being a top guy anywhere if you can't actually push him in fear of him being booed? Lol, you might as well either shit or get off the pot.
 

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Well,in my perspective,I was called this thing is close to my alternative religion or cult like my other favorite/hobby, playing football (the real one not the handegg) but as time passes, it's like watch sitcom or drama but with low quality.

The last time I follow the product intensely when The Rock made return and set the feud against Cena for WM28,after that,yeah just watch it like normal show, look now,if I have time I watch it live,I will go to network,if not,just check the update via Twitter or watch the replay.

The quality never lost, it's just they always repeat same formula where most of fans already know the outcome.
 

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Great take. Bad booking doesn't help. Vince needs to get over his "the brand is the star" mentality and heat his shit up so he can have some stars. You need to have a reason people go to these house shows, watch that TV you're getting paid for, and now you've got the money to justify it.

They are trying now on Raw, I believe. Drew McIntyre is the guy. They're still in on Becky. Murphy has been getting a lot of attention. Owens, Joe & The Vikings are those supporting players. Angel Garza has something. Aleister Black is bubbling underneath. Cool, but you've also burnt people out on your product and now there are trust issues there.



That's a good point. A lot of people who stop watching are just going to be done. And there aren't an infinite amount of people who can potentially get fans.

You've got to get people talking, and that means just hitting the right cultural nerve and/or doing something so big that you're going to cast that wide net. WrestleMania on FOX is a good advertisement for you, because people would watch -- you've just got to make the show good and have some stars coming out of it.

On a big front, you've really got Steve Austin coming back, and that's tenuous at best.

I honestly don't know why they haven't turned Roman Reigns heel at this point. There's no need for him to be a babyface and he'd become the coolest motherfucker on the planet. There hasn't been a top face that's turned heel since Austin in 2001, which no one wanted. The time before that was arguably Rock. Just give it a shot.
I feel like Raw, which has apparently been on the upward since the end of last year, is part of the problem. Smackdown too. Long episodic shows which feel like relics of a bygone era. Not stuck the 70's as the TV taping/squash match format was by 1996. But a product of the 1990's nevertheless. Though they can't alter them, take risks or reduce the length due to networks and record fees. The roster is pitch perfect, however. Though a burnt out backdrop and trust issues make it difficult to establish new stars even if the intention is honest.

I also feel the product is too weird for kids to get hooked on. The stuff with Brock, Edge, Shayna etc is meant to be real. The Fiend, Lana and Bobby is meant to be serious and pure soap opera TV at the same time. The 24/7 is completely fake and played for laughs but part of the show. They haven't done a good job at blurring the lines since forever . But it's Nitro from 2000 meets NJPW from 2005.

The risk of placing Mania on free television is it exposes how niche it is. For example, they could struggle to attract 4.5 million viewers, which is far from Superbowl like. Going back to paywall in the future would be a harder sell and if FOX tires of wrestling then the last remaing powerful brand/franchise in wrestling is severely weakened.
 
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