[TheAce]

Hoping to strike up a little convo about how everyone felt about different Indy feds this past year.


ROH - This year I felt they turned the corner and started to head back towards where they were in 2005-07 in terms of overall quality. Despite the problems with Go Fight Live, I thought the iPPVs where a great addition, especially since I can't ever seem to keep my eyes away from spoilers. I really have loved what the Briscoes are doing this year and Claudio/Hero are probably the 2 best wrestlers in North America right now not signed to WWE. Davey has started to come into his own this year as a singles wrestler and is showing real promise despite his over hype in years previous. I always found Tyler black boring as hell unless he was in the ring with Dragon or Nigel but even he had me interested through the first half of the year and of course Generico/Steen has been the best thing in wrestling anywhere.

The 2nd half of the year has been a little underwhelming for me so far but they did just got through another transition, which is too bad cause I really thought Pearce was starting to figure it out. Roddy as champion is meh to me, I mean he deserves it but I hated the match against Tyler where he won the title and if Truth is gonna be his mouthpiece, then he (Roddy) should shut up, completely. The whole House Of Truth falling apart hasn't helped things either.

Kenny Omega would have been huge this year in ROH, too bad he's pretty much Japan based now, well to bad for ROH I suppose.

One thing that is troublesome though is that it's becoming increasingly obvious that Syd Eck is a bit of a problem behind the scenes. One really has to wonder what that missed opportunity with HDNet Pearce spoke about Syd blocking...

FInal Battle should be amazing.

---------------------------

Dragon Gate USA - Still struggling to find their way in their 2nd year, mostly not really into DGUSA despite the fact that I really like Dragon Gate and a chunk of the American Indy guys they book. I did think that Enter The Dragon 2010 was fantastic (only saw the PPV not the DVD with SHingo/Danielson) and Bushido was pretty good as well, although I felt it fell victim to the Gabe overhype machine, surprise.

Lots to work with in 2011, the whole supercard concept is not working though, it's the same kinda thing that burned people out in ROH during 2008. There seems to be an improvement in that area though with the building of factions that include american workers and feuds that are unique to DGUSA starting to form. Plus gaining the greatest man that ever lived to your roster dosn't hurt. They really need to get that belt of BxB Hulk though, bleh.

Looking forward to what goes down in 2011

--------------------------------------

EVOLVE - Some good matches this year, struggling moreso than DGUSA to find itself, rules changes and fed concept changes have hurt momentum but there are a lot of bright spots like Chucky T, any match with Danielson/Hero/Claudio, Bobby Fish and that promo from Sawa about wrestling Danielson.

Is Gabe spreading himself too thin?

---------------------------------------

PWG - I've only been watching PWG for 2-3 years but this year seems off the charts good for them. They produced very high quality shows top to bottom, really good pacing to matches, matches doing their proper job for the proper spot on the card. No wrestlers ever seem to phone it in for PWG this year either and they have their share of MOTY candidates off some amazing performances, crowd reactions and commentary from the great Excalibur.

Plus PWG has the knack for pulling the trigger on a wrestler at the right time. They'd be my Favorite Indy fed this year, if it wasn't for......(Get that Red Rep ready CM Skittle)

---------------------------------------

CHIKARA - What can I say? I'm gonna get tons of heat and flamed for this but Chikara is killing other Indy feds this year (Other than PWG) They have the most consistant storylines in all of wrestling and they NEVER have continuity problems with their Storylines, which is almost unheard of wrestling. In fact, the current storyline of BDK has SO many tie-ins all the way back to the break up of the KOW in Chikara and the secret of the CHikara special getting out/Hero storyline. It's epic and obviously Quack is very attentive to detail. While they havn't produced any sureshot MOTY candidates they have put on consistantly great cards that flow well from top to bottom and Chikarasaraus Rex might be my favorite top to Bottom show this year. King Of Trios wasn't as good as 08 or 09 in my opinion, Daniels should have not showed up IMO his matches against Eddie and Hallowwicked where big let downs but the BDK advancement was good and Sekimoto killing everybody made the weekend for me. The Brooklyn show was also really really great and I loved the look of it in the Warsaw, not to mention TOYOTA!!! Oh and anytime Danielson shows up in a Chikara ring, it's great.

Just watched Dark Cibernetico and it was so fun, can't wait to check out the last 3 shows of the year.


-----------------------------------------

IWA-MS - Ian Rotten gets job at Taco Bell and no real shows to speak of = best year ever for them!

-----------------------------------------

Comments? Complaints? Opinions? Love? Hate? Let's go!!!!

 

[Bubz]

I think ROH has been very good this year, i think all the hate towards the company recently has been a bit harsh. Sure not every match on the cards are great but they dont need to make every match great, even though i wouldn't mind it lol. That brings me on to...

PWG!!! What can you say? brilliant this year, they constantly produce great top to bottom cards, with at least 1 or 2 matches each show in the **** range.

I really havnt been able to get in to DGUSA or EVOLVE though so i cant say much there. I am not a CHIKARA fan but i can see why some people love it, its just not my thing.

For my money PWG has been the best company in the world this year that i have seen along with NJPW and ROH coming 2nd.

 

[FITZ]

I've been loving the way indy wrestling has been going this year. Everyone is still in business so the business side can't be that bad. But there are so many companies out there that are putting on good shows. Just this year I've been, and have enjoyed shows by ROH, DGUSA, Chikara, CZW, Evolve, and JAPW.

 

[SHIRLEY]

Hero, Claudio and Davey have been incredible this year, across more than one promotion and more than one continent. They're the three best wrestlers in the world, right now, for my money.

Steen vs. Generico and the BDK stuff will be remembered as two of the most iconic angles in indy history.

SHIMMER deserves a mention here. New champ in Madison Eagles. Great use of the JOSHI girls (Kuriyama, Ohata). Melissa parting company with TNA and having a point to prove. Jamilia Craft starting to show promise after coming out of the academy. Hamada can't have a bad match. The promotion is really well-booked. DVD covers are miles better than ROH's. Little things like that have been falling into place in 2010. A really underrated company.

Bryan Danielson being the story of the year, in WWE, and Nigel winning TNA's fan polls have shown the widening impact of indy wrestling (along with a couple of other new indy stars now on TV with 'The Big Two').

All-in-all, if Final Battle can get a decent buyrate it'll top off a good year for indy wrestling and set up 2011 nicely. Hopefully everyone, no matter what their indy orientation, is ready to support it.

 

[TheAce]

Bryan Danielson being the story of the year, in WWE, and Nigel winning TNA's fan polls have shown the widening impact of indy wrestling (along with a couple of other new indy stars now on TV with 'The Big Two').

All-in-all, if Final Battle can get a decent buyrate it'll top off a good year for indy wrestling and set up 2011 nicely. Hopefully everyone, no matter what their indy orientation, is ready to support it.

Well said and I totally agree with what you saying about Final Battle.

 

[just1988]

I only began following indy feds in 2010 so I can't really compare them to anything else, but I can say that I did enjoy them more than enjoyed mainstream wrestling at times.

 

[acracker]

not a good year im afriad

lets get he positives out of the way;
100% Lucha, way to bring wrestling to South America hard
WXW(Germany) has really upped its game going overseas
Chikara, THE BDK STORYLINE IS AWESOME!!!!!
Jon Moxley is moving on up
tag team wrestling in Britain has picked up thanks to Fight CLub, Sherrifs Of Nottingham, The Models and Project Ego
Dragongate UK has been quite a highlight especially with Haskins and Lion Kid all getting shots,
Rockstar Spud is awesome,
Moss is a beast,
FWA has been gooooooooood


but

Dragongate USA, CZW and PWG have stopped moving up

Former WWE superstar shows are the ones that make more money than most even though NWE WSW and AWR are gone and The Hulkamania tour has probably killed wrestling down under for good

EVOLVE is a great concept but half of its roster is random guys not even the indy hardcores care about

The British Indy scene is worst its been in years;
ASW never f*****g changes
IPWUK after the last two amazing years have burned out despite the amazing tag title run by the LDRS and the rebirth of Dave MorAleSTIFF
1PW once again sank into the abyss
only DGUK ASW PBW LDN-W have any kind of security

after their slightly disappointing last oppv its clear to me that ROH is washed up, what they have isn't what they are about when it comes down to it, it wont cut the mustard in any way or form,not even Double A, they built themselves around the next gen of indy wrestling and where did that generation go?

all over the world, revenue, ticket sales, exposure, woah times are hard and its almost impossible for a new fed to come up

there isn't very little that fresh innovative or anything really to support alternative wrestling, its expensive to do so nowadays

Lucha and Puro promotions are where its at nowadays im afraid

 

[antoniomare007]

not a good year im afriad

100% Lucha, way to bring wrestling to South America hard

are you from Argentina?? I can't see how you can make that statement unless you live there and have seen their supposed success. At least in Chile they are treated like a joke and from what I've seen from them, it mostly sucks balls .

 

[SHIRLEY]

after their slightly disappointing last oppv its clear to me that ROH is washed up, what they have isn't what they are about when it comes down to it, it wont cut the mustard in any way or form,not even Double A, they built themselves around the next gen of indy wrestling and where did that generation go?

I can't really read that, apart from the bit about Arn Anderson . I guess you're making that claim that ROH has 'changed for the worse' or 'sold out'. Anyway, I disagree.

You're failing to recognise that evolution is necessary to remain fresh (just ask Madonna) and that ROH is no longer simply a niche or regional promotion but, rather, the international standard bearer for U.S. indy wrestling. It's changed with it's, now much more diverse, audience. That's just common sense promotion/booking.

I agree that GBHIX was a bit underwhelming, by ROH's own standards, but it wasn't cause for this "sky is falling" reaction. There have been some classic matches/shows/feuds this year IMHO.

What do you mean about the "next generation"? We are onto about the fourth or five generation of ROH stars now. That founding principle (building young talent) of ROH is still clearly in place. The average age of the roster is something like 28/29 (even with Jerry Lynn and Christopher Daniels on board and Tyler Black leaving). Most of the top guys, going into Final Battle, are 26/27. That's a scary thought.

The previous generations have gone on to set the tone for TNA's brief flirtation with relevance and to begin to breathe life into WWE's tired product. That's where they are. That was always the point of ROH. I can't see how that's a bad thing, for anyone concerned.

You're expecting ROH, DGUSA, CZW etc. to "move up". Unfortunately, we don't live in an infinite world and there's no space for them to "move up" into. They just need to keep being the best examples of their own product currently possible. All of these products are more widely-recognised, in 2010, than ever before and that's a fact.

There's no sense in trying to take money out of Vince McMahon's pocket. That would involve running a completely different kind of business. Which would involve 'changing for the worse' and 'selling out', two things you'd, I'm guessing, be unhappy with.

At the end of the day, indy wrestling is doing great, especially in this difficult financial climate, and all concerned deserve praise for that. There's more than enough refreshing stuff out there IMO.

to support alternative wrestling, its expensive to do so nowadays

Really? Compared to...what?

 

[USAUSA1]

NWA Hollywood has the best wrestling show on tv hands down.

 

[acracker]

are you from Argentina?? I can't see how you can make that statement unless you live there and have seen their supposed success. At least in Chile they are treated like a joke and from what I've seen from them, it mostly sucks balls .

im sorry to learn ofthat mishap, but that one screenshot of an actual arena getting packed under 100% Luchas name was all i needed to see

I can't really read that, apart from the bit about Arn Anderson .

I meant austin ares, then it would be A Double, my bad

I guess you're making that claim that ROH has 'changed for the worse' or 'sold out'. Anyway, I disagree.

ROH havent sold out at all, they just had their better guys eaten like candy by the Queen sized Chocolateers

You're failing to recognise that evolution is necessary to remain fresh (just ask Madonna) and that ROH is no longer simply a niche or regional promotion but, rather, the international standard bearer for U.S. indy wrestling. It's changed with it's, now much more diverse, audience. That's just common sense promotion/booking.

oh yeah the audiance is so diverse that they cant get a better tv deal to save their lives or even get 10000 buys on the internet

being niche is what earned them their spot in a higher platform to begin with, goodness me now we're starting the whole denial machine like with tna all over again

besides their new way of promoting is nothing special or innovative or trend setting or trailblazing and doesn't directly coincide with their live shows and dvds like it would for a tv promotion

I agree that GBHIX was a bit underwhelming, by ROH's own standards, but it wasn't cause for this "sky is falling" reaction. There have been some classic matches/shows/feuds this year IMHO.

it wasn't even worth the 11 quid i paid for it and the tag title match, which is what made me buy it, didn't live up to the hype. the last time i felt like that for a company(WWE) i flat out turned in my proverbial fancard, but thats another story

Generico/Steen is indeed a good fued, i never thought that Corino could be used in such a great way in 2010, as is Delirious's recent journey up the ladder, The Kings Of Wrestling are hands down the best team in the world besides maybe Beer Money, a few episodes of the tv show have been good from beginning to end ,but the rest is just an angry pile of MEH that makes me if it were 2005 today in ROH

What do you mean about the "next generation"? We are onto about the fourth or five generation of ROH stars now. That founding principle (building young talent) of ROH is still clearly in place. The average age of the roster is something like 28/29 (even with Jerry Lynn and Christopher Daniels on board and Tyler Black leaving). Most of the top guys, going into Final Battle, are 26/27. That's a scary thought.

Daniels AJ Joe MCMG Nigel Bryan Homicide Tyler Black CM Low Ki Sydal Kendrick London Young Bucks Lethal Amazing Red Doug Williams(oh stfu he was practically part of the roster)

their time should be now, in ROH, their current midcard and undercard cant hold a candle the guys monetioned above, therefore ROH got weakened in everyway since they are all about the wrestling

The previous generations have gone on to set the tone for TNA's brief flirtation with relevance and to begin to breathe life into WWE's tired product. That's where they are. That was always the point of ROH. I can't see how that's a bad thing, for anyone concerned.

remember when ECW was on the way down in 1999, because Tazz and The Dudleys left sending a clear message to the whole world that ECW was never gonna be neck and neck with WCW and WWF to give the boys incentive to stay in ECW and will always be the breeding ground for the "superstars" of tomorrow in different companies which is a big reason as to why they aren't around and a fate undeserved too

You're expecting ROH, DGUSA, CZW etc. to "move up". Unfortunately, we don't live in an infinite world and there's no space for them to "move up" into. They just need to keep being the best examples of their own product currently possible. All of these products are more widely-recognised, in 2010, than ever before and that's a fact.

More reconsigned now, what planet are you living on? Fight Network/TWC has practically given up on wrestling. If these company's fans and employees and investors from years back are giving up on them then where is their future gonna come from? If there really is no next step then they have no purpose, indy wrestling deserves a higher platform but the deadending promotions would be more helpful off selling their stuff to a better company, just imagine the possibilities , thus raising the average standard for the sake of the whooel business

There's no sense in trying to take money out of Vince McMahon's pocket. That would involve running a completely different kind of business. Which would involve 'changing for the worse' and 'selling out', two things you'd, I'm guessing, be unhappy with.

i like to believe there is a another way, a sort of middleground yet to be plundered, like Chikara and EVOLVE

as long as there are others feds besides TNA and WWE out there there is always hope

At the end of the day, indy wrestling is doing great, especially in this difficult financial climate, and all concerned deserve praise for that. There's more than enough refreshing stuff out there IMO.



Really? Compared to...what?

compared to oh i dont know, just sitting at home not go anywhere turn on the tv and blindly hope for the best

at the end of decade, indy wrestling can snap in an instant, the financial climate on behalf of casuals and hardcores alike is a reminder that they have got to step it up and do what they have to, even if it means forcing a few CWA esque unities

 

[CM Skittle]

One really has to wonder what that missed opportunity with HDNet Pearce spoke about Syd blocking...

What does this mean?

 

[TheAce]

What does this mean?

In an interview I read with Adam Pearce he says that HDNet made some offer to ROH that was going to be really good for them (ROH) and Syd stopped it from happening.

 

[basketball45231]

A lot of what Pearce has talked about was moving away from DVDs sales. He wanted more iPPV type stuff. My guess is that he wanted to put full shows on HDnet.

 

[FITZ]

I think it might cost a little more to follow an indy company when compared to WWE but not that much more. I mean if you are a smart shopper and take advantages of sales that ROH has I'm not sure if you would be paying the $50 a month that it costs on average to really follow the WWE (by ordering every PPV). I personally can get a nice looking stack of indy DVDs for the same cost as it would be to get a WWE PPV.

 

[CM Skittle]

ROH - This has definitely been a really good year for them and they've had the best storyline in all of wrestling this year with Kevin Steen vs. El Generico. I liked Tyler Black's title reign and Davey Richards seriously has a great match whenever he's out there. The only thing I don't like about this year is Roderick Strong as champion, I know he's been around forever and "deserves" the title but I just think he's kinda boring as champ, especially with the Truth Martini and House of Truth stuff. But anyways I think this has been the best indy this year, it's not as good as it was in 2006 but it's been one of ROH's best years

PWG - They had a really good year too and even though it wasn't as good as 2009 for them they still had some good shows and matches. I can't get into PWG because I hate the atmosphere and the storylines but the wrestling is usually good. I like that they're trying to get their own identity by booking a lot of California wrestlers but I wish they could find better wrestlers than the lame ones they have right now, I never watch the PWG undercard matches because they always suck to me. But the main event scene is really good

DGUSA - I'm laughing so hard at people who thought this shitty fed would actually be able to compete with ROH. Their storylines suck, the wrestling style sucks, and no one wants to see 3 hours straight of crappy spotfests. I think they'll be out of business by 2012, I love seeing them fail.

EVOLVE - They suck too, the whole premise of the fed is beyond lame and Gabe just seriously has no idea how to book any more. And I hate how they do fighting spirit in 5 minute opening matches, ugh I bet if a real puro wrestler saw this they would spit on the TV screen at what they did to a style that actually used to mean something and now a bunch of 90 pound skinny American jobbers just do it horribly. And why do half of their storylines revolve around drugs? They try way too hard to be "real" and it just makes them look beyond stupid.

CHIKARA - By far the worst fed in 2010, this whole BDK thing is literally stolen from an episode of power rangers, lol. I just have no idea how anyone over 10 can watch this and actually enjoy it, maybe if I knew a little kid who liked wrestling I'd show them CHIKARA but I'm 23 so sorry, magic vikings and dancing egyptians aren't doing it for me. And the wrestling is SO bad, they need to use the crappy students for pre-show matches and try booking more REAL wrestlers for their main shows, I don't want to see some student botching moves for 10 minutes on the actual show. And the production is sooo unprofessional, they're like the grade school play of indy promotions, so bad.

 

[TheAce]

^^^ hey look at you with all the civilized discussion, huh, go figure.

=p

Anyway, I obviously disagree with what you're saying about Chikara but to each his own. Gotta say though, I agree with a lot of what you're saying about ROH. Except your distaste for the HOT. If Raymond hadn't retired and Able didn't get injured, they would have been great in 2011

 

[Fenice]

Hero, Claudio and Davey have been incredible this year, across more than one promotion and more than one continent. They're the three best wrestlers in the world, right now, for my money.

Steen vs. Generico and the BDK stuff will be remembered as two of the most iconic angles in indy history.

SHIMMER deserves a mention here. New champ in Madison Eagles. Great use of the JOSHI girls (Kuriyama, Ohata). Melissa parting company with TNA and having a point to prove. Jamilia Craft starting to show promise after coming out of the academy. Hamada can't have a bad match. The promotion is really well-booked. DVD covers are miles better than ROH's. Little things like that have been falling into place in 2010. A really underrated company.

I agree with everything you said. ROH has been putting out gold lately and as a fan of their older years, they are really showing how much new, young and skilled talent they have while using ROH veterans in the proper ways.

I am also extremely happy there are SHIMMER fans on this forum.

I was expecting only one or two women to shine when I first started watching the promotion, boy was I wrong. I just had volume 32 mailed to me, and wow... The Melissa/Hamada match was just amazing, Danger proves the "it" factor is in her genes and not something that just her brother has, Nicole Matthews has wonderful technical skills and is continually improving to the point where I see a new move from her everytime she wrestles along with being more fluid, and Jennifer Blake could be one of the most well rounded women wrestler's of this decade just waiting to break out. I would say that if anyone thinks that women's wrestling is dying, please pick up a copy of any SHIMMER dvd, but especially volume 32. There are so many talented women out there and for them to have a platform to showcase their abilities is great. I cannot wait for volume 33.

 

[KaijuFan]

ROH really got me back on board this year, I haven't gone to more live shows and I've loved nearly every angle they've done (minus anything Embassy related, except Erick Stevens) and each iPPV they keep building.

I haven't seen much of Chikara at all this year due to big financial cutbacks but the few shows I have managed to see were the usual affair. I feel their wrestling was better in 08 and 09, however their angles and storylines blow every other promotion out of the water.

PWG since 09 has been raping my eyes with such visuals as Chuck Taylor commentating while wrestling, Christina Von Eerie, and the most fun undercards I've ever seen. I haven't seen anything since Seven, but aside from the horrible timing between Omega and Davey's title reigns this year has been pretty ace.

Shimmer is awesome, needs more Portia Perez.

 

[SHIRLEY]

Why am I even writing a stupidly long reply?

Spoiler: Looooong reply

oh yeah the audiance is so diverse that they cant get a better tv deal to save their lives or even get 10000 buys on the internet

What's wrong with the current TV deal? HDNet is a company that's a great fit for pro wrestling, who are committed to growing at the same patient rate as ROH. It's a sensible, balanced, secure, long-term partnership, with a lot of potential.

Your expectations for the iPPVs are ridiculous. TNA PPVs rarely get near 10,000 buys total.

FYI these ROH shows need 80 (EIGHT. ZERO.) buys to break even, on the added cost of making them available online, IIRC. They are already making vastly more money than TNA's disastrous heavy-loss-making PPV model is, yet you seem to want ROH to adopt a TNA-like Icarus philosophy towards business.

The iPPVs are still in their infancy too and FB will be a good acid test of where they stand after year one. Close to 2,500 buys will be cause for celebration, in the Silkin household.

Streaming didn't even exist in the bygone ROH era that your comparing today to (which is just one of the many benefits of being a modern indy fan) and if it did, they wouldn't have got 1,000 buys, let alone 10,000. The company didn't have anywhere near the profile that it does now.

being niche is what earned them their spot in a higher platform to begin with

They're niche compared to WWE and TNA but not compared to Chikara, CZW and SHIMMER. They've transcended that particular pack by creating a version of the ROH product with a broader appeal.

There are now southern rasslin' fans (and others) on the bandwagon, that need catering to as much as you, I, or anyone else does.

ROH's product is still true to the founding principles anyway - youth, athleticism, seriousness, and common sense business practice. If ROH stayed exactly the same you'd be bitching that the brand was stale. The pure wrestling trend will eventually completely peter out, just like extreme wrestling did, and ROH needs to be ready for that if it wants to outlive ECW.

it wasn't even worth the 11 quid i paid for it and the tag title match, which is what made me buy it, didn't live up to the hype.

I didn't love the show myself but I'd hardly complain about spending 9 quid (which is how much the iPPV actually was btw). It was more than value for nine pounds IMO. Three hours of wrestling for less than 1hr 15mins of my wages is a pretty sweet deal IMHO. Especially when you see it in the context of what nine quid would get you from WWE or TNA.

Daniels AJ Joe MCMG Nigel Bryan Homicide Tyler Black CM Low Ki Sydal Kendrick London Young Bucks Lethal Amazing Red Doug Williams(oh stfu he was practically part of the roster)

their time should be now, in ROH, their current midcard and undercard cant hold a candle the guys monetioned above, therefore ROH got weakened in everyway since they are all about the wrestling

No, their time shouldn't be "now, in ROH". That's a ridiculous, unrealistic statement. You don't seem to understand how the hierarchy of the wrestling business works. Corporate companies have huge talent budgets, independent companies don't. Therefore, indy companies have to make the best out of what limited resources they have. If ROH kept Dragon, by offering to equal his WWE pay-packet, they'd be in bankruptcy court. Instead they developed younger guys, like Davey Richards, who now represent more sound value for money than Dragon would, and the process continues. If Dragon (or anyone else) wants to grow their own brand at a quicker rate than ROH wants to grow theirs (bearing in mind the risk/reward of running before you can walk) then good luck to them.

There was never a point, in ROH history, where all of those guys, that you named, were on the roster simultaneously. That's pure fantasy, on your part. Each, in fact, filled the gap left by his predecessor. If CM Punk didn't leave there would be no Nigel McGuinness title run, for example. None of those guys were as big stars, as they are now, when they were on the ROH undercard. Again, that's just a silly statement.

Yes, it's true that ROH develops talent that go on to work elsewhere. The knock-on effect is that more people become aware of ROH and also WWE and TNA's product slightly improves artistically. If ROH didn't exist then all of those guys' spots, elsewhere, would be filled by poorly-trained boxer-short models.

remember when ECW was on the way down in 1999, because Tazz and The Dudleys left sending a clear message to the whole world that ECW was never gonna be neck and neck with WCW and WWF to give the boys incentive to stay in ECW and will always be the breeding ground for the "superstars" of tomorrow in different companies which is a big reason as to why they aren't around and a fate undeserved too

When did anyone ever think that ECW would compete with Time Warner or Titan Sports, as a business? You're completely missing the point of third party promotions. They're more about bringing ideas to the table and giving misfit toys a second (or in some cases first) chance. The same with independent politicians, independent music labels etc.

What killed ECW's business was a combination of Eric Bischoff's shady business practices, Paul Heyman's shady business practices, Rob Van Dam's broken foot and being screwed by unreliable TV and video game companies. They had a revolving door of talent for six years before Taz and The Dudleyz left. That was par for the course. That's what kept things fresh. Those aforementioned characters would never have had their place in history, if not for that.

ECW still has a footprint on wrestling today, and that's all that they set out to do, make a statement.

More reconsigned now, what planet are you living on? Fight Network/TWC has practically given up on wrestling. If these company's fans and employees and investors from years back are giving up on them then where is their future gonna come from?

More people will watch Final Battle 2010 live than any other ROH show in history.

In the context of the current worldwide financial climate, there are a very respectable number of viable indy promotions.

If there really is no next step then they have no purpose, indy wrestling deserves a higher platform but the deadending promotions would be more helpful off selling their stuff to a better company, just imagine the possibilities , thus raising the average standard for the sake of the whooel business

What are you on about?

The way for indy wrestling to grow is slowly and organically, fan-by-fan. It stops being independent once they sell-out to a corporate entity. The "possibilities" of selling-out are what TNA has gone on to become. A high-speed car crash fueled by money marks.

If you're talking about one promotion “buying” another, most indy promotions have nothing to sell anyway, except some old merch and video distribution rights.

i like to believe there is a another way, a sort of middleground yet to be plundered

What precedents are you basing this belief on? The status quo is what it is. WWE's product is, give or take a few imperfections, the prototype mainstream wrestling show. If you want ROH to fill 80,000 capacity arenas and sell 1,000,000 PPVs then they would have to have the exact same product that WWE has now, in a world where WWE doesn't exist. So what would be the point?

In order to find your "middleground" ROH would have to adopt 50% of WWE's inoffensive blandness. Which would only make you long for the critical acclaimed 2005-era even more.

compared to oh i dont know, just sitting at home not go anywhere turn on the tv and blindly hope for the best

You either want to watch/support wrestling or you don't. If you want to spend a given sum of money on wrestling your option is to spend your chosen amount of money on some WWE or TNA shows, or two-to-three times as many ROH shows (leaving other indies aside for the sake of this argument).

It's all roughly the same. Following indy wrestling closely is more value for money, IMO, than corporate wrestling or any other comparable form of sport or entertainment. It's a very affordable product. The only issue is getting out of the WWE fan mindset of watching three weeks of TV for free and then spending your big lump of money. DG:USA and EVOLVE, in particular, are very affordable to keep up with, if ROH's forty-shows-a-year model is a turn off.

even if it means forcing a few CWA esque unities

There are already two major groups of loosely-allied promotions in indy wrestling. The Cold War between the two has been pretty big news ever since Davey Richards made Gabe's lose his smile.

tl;dr I don't get this 'Why can't ROH be like the Joe-era product but popular?' sillyness that some people come out with. That's what ROH is now. Problem is, you have to sacrifice a small part of the one side of the equation to gain a small part of the other side. You can't have your cake and eat it.

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@Fenice

SHIMMER's just a joy to watch. A breath of fresh air. Nicole Matthews might be the most underrated heel in the business. There are so many other girls on that roster that are watchable too.

I would recommend that everyone watches at least one SHIMMER show, if only for the initial culture shock that you get.