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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
When Samoa Joe won the Fatal Five Way to become #1 contender and face Brock Lesnar at Great Balls of Fire, many people were pleasantly surprised. People that have been fans of Joe for years were very happy to see Joe not only become #1 contender for the top title, but against Brock Lesnar. A dream match people have talked about for years.

And if you have followed my activity, you’ll see that I’m very hyped, although very cautious about this match. But I can’t help if some people are blowing this somewhat out of proportion.

Take Dave Meltzer in the example below. A man who I personally don’t cater to everything he says but respect his opinion to a point. Start at 1:30.


Ok, this is where someone like him loses me. Saying things like Joe vs. Lesnar should be saved for WrestleMania or that Strowman, Braun “I’m Not Finished With You!” Mother Fucking Strowman, should be the set up for Samoa Joe?

And then you have a podcaster like The Solomonster, the only wrestling podcast I listen to weekly and who’s opinions I respect. But even he says things like this:


So, Samoa Joe, whose closer to 40 than he is 30 by the way, should get a headline match over one of their younger stars in Reigns? Now I get some people don’t like Reigns and that’s all fine by me. But to say Joe at this stage in his career should get that spot is, and I’m sorry, somewhat laughable.

Don’t get me wrong guys, I’m really hyped for this match. Samoa Joe, while Father Time has taken some of his greatness in the ring, is still a guy who walks and talks like a true badass. I have loved his work as a guy on the mic and a character since he turned heel in NXT. And the idea of him having at least a somewhat competitive match against Brock is very exciting.

But, can we slow down just a bit? Can we realize Joe is the same guy he used to be 10 or even 5 years ago in the ring? Can we realize the guy is pushing 40? Not that that should be a death knell, but in no way would I say Lesnar vs. Joe should be the ultimate goal. And some people will say "well, AJ is 40 now." Difference is AJ is still working at an elite level and comes across as a bigger star than Joe.

To say Strowman should be the set up for Joe? Ok, who is younger? Strowman. Who has been the best part of Raw the past few months? Strowman. Who means more to the company’s future? Strowman. And hell, even with Reigns, I’m not going to say Joe vs. Lesnar should be valued more. Yeah, they’ve fucked up royally with Reigns in the past but that doesn’t mean I would value Samoa Joe this late in his career over him.

I say it one last time, I’m so hyped for this match. But to the people saying this should be a Summerslam or WrestleMania match, given all the factors I just listed, honestly, we should just be grateful this match is happening at all. This was never going to be anything more than a 1 and done match for Brock and given other names lined up, it shouldn’t be anything more than that.
 

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I don't think people are overvaluing Joe. I think people are valuing WWE giving a Lesnar match to someone who is relatively new to WWE and was going no where. Joe was just a new bad guy with the authority. Now he's out there cracking promos and skulls and people are hyped.

WWE hired a TNA guy and put him in a main event. It's recognition of talent. Something WWE rarely does. That's what people are losing their minds over.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Samoa Joe is better than Braun and Roman. Those guys gets it, they have been following Joe's career for almost two decades now. Oh and did I mention, Joe is better than Braun and Roman btw? Okay.
In 2017? Really.

Now, as a character Joe has improved. But in the ring he’s nowhere near as good as he once was. And in 2017, Braun Strowman has been the guy whose been getting the big reactions, having these awesome segments, having really good matches with Reigns and hell even Big Show. He’s younger. He’s been presented as more of a star. He feels like more of a star when he walks out.

And yes, despite Reigns not being as much of a success as I’m sure WWE wishes, he to has these same qualities.

It’s not 2006 anymore. It’s not 2010 anymore. Joe has slowed down and as much some people would like it to be, this match is not going to positioned higher than other potential matchups and it shouldn’t be.
 

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It seems to me like you are deeply, deeply undervaluing Samoe Joe, as a lot of people have for many years.

It's probably hard to make the judgement until the dust settles, but I for one think Joe has a LOT more to offer as a big-time monster than anyone realizes. His look, his presence, and his promo ability together make him unique among the rest. And I guarantee you that if the match is produced properly, he and Lesnar will top anything that Strowman and Lesnar can do together at this point in time.

Truthfully, Strowman is probably 5 years away from being as great as he can be, and having him already go against Lesnar when he debuted just a year ago is probably a premature decision. I'd prefer to let him mature in the midcard for a bit before putting him against Brock. THAT could be a future WrestleMania main event if it's done right.
 

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The thing is right now Joe is better than Strowman and Roman. That doesn't mean tho that when Strowman and Roman hit Joe's current age they can't be better. Joe just has so much more experience to draw from. It's no knock on the other two.

Also Joe has a much shorter shelf life than the other two, obviously because of his age. Giving him the spotlight right now is without a doubt the correct thing to do.
 

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Joe is still within the prime age of a wrestler. 38 isn't that old in the gramd scheme of things. I mean, Lesnar would be 40 bu then but you don't mention that. If you're good enough you're young enough and unlike other talent, he isn't a part timer. I'm not advocating for Joe vs Lesnar to main event mania, but he deserves as much as a shout as the next guy. It just seems to me that you just don't like Samoa Joe as other people do and are trying to find reasons not to push him that strongly.
 

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I still don't get the hype & yes y'all are overvaluing Towelie, if this was in the last decade then sure :shrug
 

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I think you get what you can from Joe and also protect Strowman. As for Roman, it's not like he's ever losing an opportunity, so whatever. But Joe doesn't have to be pushed *over* Strowman, or vice versa.. I see them both as unique challenges for Lesnar on the main event heel side.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
It seems to me like you are deeply, deeply undervaluing Samoe Joe, as a lot of people have for many years.

It's probably hard to make the judgement until the dust settles, but I for one think Joe has a LOT more to offer as a big-time monster than anyone realizes. His look, his presence, and his promo ability together make him unique among the rest. And I guarantee you that if the match is produced properly, he and Lesnar will top anything that Strowman and Lesnar can do together at this point in time.

Truthfully, Strowman is probably 5 years away from being as great as he can be, and having him already go against Lesnar when he debuted just a year ago is probably a premature decision. I'd prefer to let him mature in the midcard for a bit before putting him against Brock. THAT could be a future WrestleMania main event if it's done right.
I personally don’t believe I’m undervaluing him. I think he’s become an aweome promo. He walks and talks like a badass. He’s great. The only thing I’m saying is that he’s not the same guy in the ring he was 10 or even 5 years ago.

If I could get Brock of today against 2006 Joe in at least a somewhat competitive match right now, shut up and take my money now. But that’s not the case.

All I’m saying is that he is not the biggest match up right now. Reigns vs. Lesnar feels like a bigger match up, regardless of how they’ve fucked up with Roman at times. Strowman feels like a bigger match up.

And I you are undervaluing a guy like Strowman. This is the same guy who has been apart of some of the best segments on TV for the past year. A guy who has gotten great reactions and good matches out of Big Show. No way do I adhere to the “5 years away” line of thinking. Strowman is great now. And they need to strike with him now.
 

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IMO the WWE is undervaluing Samoa Joe, or at least had been up til the last month, and will probably go back to undervaluing him after GBOF....
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
IMO the WWE is undervaluing Samoa Joe, or at least had been up til the last month, and will probably go back to undervaluing him after GBOF....
I don’t deny that they could have done better with him, although honestly I’ve been pleasantly surprised because it could have been much worse.

But the only thing I’m trying to say is that he should not be the “ultimate goal” for Lesnar or WWE at this stage of his career.
 

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I don’t deny that they could have done better with him, although honestly I’ve been pleasantly surprised because it could have been much worse.

But the only thing I’m trying to say is that he should not be the “ultimate goal” for Lesnar or WWE at this stage of his career.
There is no "ultimate goal" for Lesnar though. Lesnar has been positioned as "the ultimate goal" for everyone else to beat. Lesnar's character's "ultimate goal" is to stay on top.

But I get what you are arguing here, and given where Joe and other guys are I agree, but I'm saying the WWE took way to long to get Joe on their roster and have undervalued him since signing him, up until recently.
 

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the bigger question is why was samoa joe, a guy thats been on TNA for years so knew about cameras and all that other BS became the champion of a developmental brand....joe shouldve landed straight in the main roster from day 1 like AJ.

again though I believe if HHH was running things, joe would be doing more on the main roster, he clearly sees more in him than vince does.
 

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I personally don’t believe I’m undervaluing him. I think he’s become an aweome promo. He walks and talks like a badass. He’s great. The only thing I’m saying is that he’s not the same guy in the ring he was 10 or even 5 years ago.

If I could get Brock of today against 2006 Joe in at least a somewhat competitive match right now, shut up and take my money now. But that’s not the case.

All I’m saying is that he is not the biggest match up right now. Reigns vs. Lesnar feels like a bigger match up, regardless of how they’ve fucked up with Roman at times. Strowman feels like a bigger match up.

And I you are undervaluing a guy like Strowman. This is the same guy who has been apart of some of the best segments on TV for the past year. A guy who has gotten great reactions and good matches out of Big Show. No way do I adhere to the “5 years away” line of thinking. Strowman is great now. And they need to strike with him now.
Well, to start... you're framing it like this: because Joe is older and isn't as athletic as he was in 2006 (which I'm not really sure I agree with but we'll move past it), his match against Lesnar won't be good. But what are you basing that off of? Since Joe has been in WWE, how many athletic powerhouse contests has he been involved in, with people the caliber Strowman's opponents over the last year?

And honestly, maybe I'm just a weirdo, but I feel like you're vastly overhyping Braun's accomplishments. He's still green in the ring, and that shows a lot. He's had the privilege of working with some really talented people. While he's certainly had some exciting matches (Big Show), he's had some real stinkers too (several Roman matches). I'm not yet sold on him, and while you might be, I think a lot of people are probably still sitting on the fence with me.

Joe's proven, in my eyes. He's had a number of really great matches against different talent in this time and has worked a few different styles too. And I think his potential in the hard-hitting slugfest style matches with guys like Lesnar is wildly untapped, which I'm *hoping* we'll all see soon enough.
 

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He's old, no doubt, but he's still got a solid amount left in the tank where he can make a contribution to WWE, so from that standpoint I think WWE is undervaluing him.

But again he's old, so anyone who thinks he can be a major player for the next five years is over valuing him.

As always what's best lies somewhere in the middle. I think Joe would be best suited with a long dominant title run, six months just to throw out a number, followed by putting over some young guys.



Basically I think his biggest upside is he can still go, his biggest downside is the window is closing fast, and he's being undervalued and over valued by different sides of the coin.
 

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I legit laugh when people post their fantasties of Joe just destroying Lesnar within seconds.

Joe looks too darn goofy and the way he talks is not intimidating. It comes across as softcore porn. He is also such a bore in the ring. As a midcarder, sure, but the way people inflate his value is insane.

Really hoping Joe is actually filler and will go back to doing whatever the hell he was doing before.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
There is no "ultimate goal" for Lesnar though. Lesnar has been positioned as "the ultimate goal" for everyone else to beat. Lesnar's character's "ultimate goal" is to stay on top.

But I get what you are arguing here, and given where Joe and other guys are I agree, but I'm saying the WWE took way to long to get Joe on their roster and have undervalued him since signing him, up until recently.
I wrote that wrong. What I meant to say is that I don’t think Joe should be the to take the title off of Brock at this stage of his career when they have better options.
 

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Well BECAUSE Joe is nearing 40 he should get the opportunity first and the rest can wait especially Reigns who has like 53 WM mainevents left for him. They should exploit Joe as much as possible because we don't know when he's gonna hang it up, and if he proves himself why not run with him for 2-3 years? Age isn't a problem when you're still fresh and can still perform at a high level. AJ Styles is a living proof of that.

It's the best possible match for Lesnar right now and Joe has been killing it, and at the end of the day we all know it's just a filler feud. Nevertheless these 3 are probably the best 3 choices to face Lesnar (yes I miss power and big men in wrestling, kill me), so any one of them is fine for me.
 

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All I’m saying is that he is not the biggest match up right now. Reigns vs. Lesnar feels like a bigger match up, regardless of how they’ve fucked up with Roman at times. Strowman feels like a bigger match up.
i couldn't disagree more. That Lesnar and Joe segment felt hotter than any segment Roman has ever appeared in as a singles wrestler. Even when Roman was in the ring with Lesnar, they played tug of war with the belt. Joe kicked Brocks ass. The only thing I can even think of that he's been apart of with that kind of energy was when The Shield and the Wyatts were in the ring for the first time, and that wasn't him as a singles, the energy was created far more so by the people around him.

Reigns may be pushed harder than Joe but he doesn't have 1 1 thousandth of Joes presence, aura, charisma, mic skills or wrestling ability, even in 2017. A properly promoted Joe can create a big match feeling, Roman has never done that, even at WrestleMania.
 
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