It depends on the type of heel, who they are facing and more. I don't think the Miz should rack up many clean wins though. He's a chickenshit heel. Orton and Triple H have been booked as sadistic heels that are capable of kicking your ass in the past. Then there are monster heels like Kane that should be considered a threat to anyone. It all dependsto be honest. Having a bunch of overbooked cheap finishes, ref bumps, and other cheating can also get very old.
Heels Should Never Get a Clean Win Over A Face
After reading a post on Miz's title reign and how so many people think he doesn't have credibility because he gets "cheap wins," I want to say this...HEELS SHOULD NEVER GET A CLEAN WIN.
They are heels for a reason; they are the bad guys, the villains; they should never cleanly defeat a babyface. It just shouldn't happen. In movies, especially superhero movies, you never see the bad guy defeat the hero cleanly. They always use a cheap way to get out on top; the same pertains to wrestling. Cheating = bad in society's mind and society (fans) will learn to hate a heel because of the cheating and cheap things he does to go over the fan favorite.
Im so sick of seeing people here getting upset over guys like Punk and Miz never going over Orton or Cena cleanly. They are heels; they shouldn't beat the two top face stars in the company cleanly. Nobody like a cheater and a heels job is to not be liked. It makes perfect sense.
The IWC wants to see guys like Jericho, Punk, Miz, Del Rio beat guys like Cena, Taker, Orton, and Mysterio, because they automatically like the heel, and when they don't the IWC automatically bring politics into it.
Maybe it's just the nature the business should be run.
Heels should never go over a face cleanly.
Thoughts?
They are heels for a reason; they are the bad guys, the villains; they should never cleanly defeat a babyface. It just shouldn't happen. In movies, especially superhero movies, you never see the bad guy defeat the hero cleanly. They always use a cheap way to get out on top; the same pertains to wrestling. Cheating = bad in society's mind and society (fans) will learn to hate a heel because of the cheating and cheap things he does to go over the fan favorite.
Im so sick of seeing people here getting upset over guys like Punk and Miz never going over Orton or Cena cleanly. They are heels; they shouldn't beat the two top face stars in the company cleanly. Nobody like a cheater and a heels job is to not be liked. It makes perfect sense.
The IWC wants to see guys like Jericho, Punk, Miz, Del Rio beat guys like Cena, Taker, Orton, and Mysterio, because they automatically like the heel, and when they don't the IWC automatically bring politics into it.
Maybe it's just the nature the business should be run.
Heels should never go over a face cleanly.
Thoughts?
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Simply making all Heels chickenshits who can never win without assistance isn't the answer either. Sure, movie villains rarely do, but that's a whole different kettle of fish to people that are feuding for weeks. How entertaining would it be if in, say, DC Comics, none of Batman's rogues gallery could pose a credible threat to him without extenuating circumstances? We'd all be fucking sick of them by now.
I agree, there are Heels that work better as chickenshits, but having all Heels have to rely on cheap dirty victories undermines their credibility and does a lot more harm to them than a face would get from suffering a remotely clean defeat.
I agree, there are Heels that work better as chickenshits, but having all Heels have to rely on cheap dirty victories undermines their credibility and does a lot more harm to them than a face would get from suffering a remotely clean defeat.
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99% of the time the people that say they hate that they cheat simply have a hatred of the Wrestler in question making there opinion biased i agree with you tho heels getting clean wins isn't being a heel unless its a squash match against a Mid Carder but in matches against Main Eventers heels should always cheat and cut corners and take the easy rout other wise they just ain't a very good heel .
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123,116 Posts
NEVER? That makes no fucking sense and it's a miracle WWE doesn't adhere to this nonsense.
It depends all on who the heel is, who the face is, what the circumstances are, what type of match it is, what's on the line, if they're in the process of turning the heel face, if they're in the process of turning the face heel, etc, how any individual heel can effectively use winning clean to rub their skill in the audiences faces. On, and on, and on. There's tons of different variables. Saying that a heel should never get a clean win is completely baseless and quite frankly, stupid. Just because you have a bad attitude doesn't mean you have to cheat. Do you REALLY want to see somebody like Ezekiel Jackson have to cheat to beat somebody like Yoshi Tatsu?
How did you come up with this horseshit?
It depends all on who the heel is, who the face is, what the circumstances are, what type of match it is, what's on the line, if they're in the process of turning the heel face, if they're in the process of turning the face heel, etc, how any individual heel can effectively use winning clean to rub their skill in the audiences faces. On, and on, and on. There's tons of different variables. Saying that a heel should never get a clean win is completely baseless and quite frankly, stupid. Just because you have a bad attitude doesn't mean you have to cheat. Do you REALLY want to see somebody like Ezekiel Jackson have to cheat to beat somebody like Yoshi Tatsu?
How did you come up with this horseshit?
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1,849 Posts
The fact that no heels ever get a clean win, and that no heel ever seems like a legit threat is one of the main problems i have with wwe right now.
Look at cenas feuds, he takes his opponents so lightly its almost comical. Noone at all is a threat to him, so there is no tension, no nothing.
Look at cenas feuds, he takes his opponents so lightly its almost comical. Noone at all is a threat to him, so there is no tension, no nothing.
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562 Posts
having a heel go clean over cena is a stretch, but just think of what it would do to that persons heel role. they would be seen as the most evil most dominant force in wwe. yea i dont think it should happen alot, but its good to make a heel look strong. its getting to a point where its like "cena will win if no one cheats" and its true, even if they do cheat he's going over. its at a point of being too predictable. heels need to look strong.
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21,207 Posts
I agree that Miz isn't the type of heel that should be beating people clean week after week. But FFS, he needs some measure of credibility in order to not look like a complete joke. For the most part, heels shouldn't be going over faces. But when it comes to building stars and trying to make them look legit, then they should be booking these young heels (character dependent of course) as strongly as they can, especially in PPV matches and this is something that WWE simply does not do. Then they wonder why guys lose their heat. Its because you treat them like a joke!
I also think that the element of the chase is truly gone from WWE because we never get to see the face finally beat the heel that has been giving him shit for a few months after a long and emotional ride. Nope. Today the face usually dominates and the heel looks as threatening as Mae Young. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Look back at HHH/Faction and The Rock. Trips used dirty tactics week after week, just building the fans anticipation for Rock to finally kick his ass. But when he had to get in the ring we all knew that he could back it up. Its a win win for everybody because everybody knows that the heel isn't some fluke and the face proves his worth by going over and finally getting what he's been fighting for for months. Compare that to Cena/Nexus where Cena is tortured by Barrett for months but his team wins at SS. Then he gets tortured again and is eventually fired. The very next week he is back and beating the whole group by himself. WWE seriously blew that one. Where is the chase? Where is the struggle? Where is that moment where the face can finally say that he did it? While I mark for Cena, at this stage I really do think they protect him WAY too much and now its happening with Orton all over again. I mean, Miz was physically afraid to get into the ring with him. And that is the guy you call champion? Ugh. The whole thing frustrates the hell out of me and its why when people say that they liked the AE era better, I fully understand what they mean. Today's booking is all over the bloody place.
Alright, rant over lol.
I also think that the element of the chase is truly gone from WWE because we never get to see the face finally beat the heel that has been giving him shit for a few months after a long and emotional ride. Nope. Today the face usually dominates and the heel looks as threatening as Mae Young. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Look back at HHH/Faction and The Rock. Trips used dirty tactics week after week, just building the fans anticipation for Rock to finally kick his ass. But when he had to get in the ring we all knew that he could back it up. Its a win win for everybody because everybody knows that the heel isn't some fluke and the face proves his worth by going over and finally getting what he's been fighting for for months. Compare that to Cena/Nexus where Cena is tortured by Barrett for months but his team wins at SS. Then he gets tortured again and is eventually fired. The very next week he is back and beating the whole group by himself. WWE seriously blew that one. Where is the chase? Where is the struggle? Where is that moment where the face can finally say that he did it? While I mark for Cena, at this stage I really do think they protect him WAY too much and now its happening with Orton all over again. I mean, Miz was physically afraid to get into the ring with him. And that is the guy you call champion? Ugh. The whole thing frustrates the hell out of me and its why when people say that they liked the AE era better, I fully understand what they mean. Today's booking is all over the bloody place.
Alright, rant over lol.
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5,139 Posts
It all depends. Shouldn't a new monster heel you want to push destroy a midcarder? It's been pointed out previously, but there is a huge distinction to make with the Miz situation. He should never beat Cena or Orton clean...but King...come on.
My favorite WWE match of all time involved a heel going over a face clean (Owen over Bret at WMX). I don't know many people who complain about that.
My favorite WWE match of all time involved a heel going over a face clean (Owen over Bret at WMX). I don't know many people who complain about that.
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I'm not saying any old mofo should beat john cena, but im saying that it's never even seen as a realistic possibility. I can't see the miz over cena clean, that wouldnt make sense, but there hasn't been a heel in a long ass time that seemed like an actual threat to faces, not since brock i guess.
aside from cena, the fact that the miz cant beat jerry the king clean is reallly stupid. Theres a difference between making the heel a chicken shit and a cheater, and making him look downright pathetic. They booked miz weak, i get that, but they took it too far with this lawler shit.
aside from cena, the fact that the miz cant beat jerry the king clean is reallly stupid. Theres a difference between making the heel a chicken shit and a cheater, and making him look downright pathetic. They booked miz weak, i get that, but they took it too far with this lawler shit.
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498 Posts
I see one problem....Aren't we supposed to like Faces? I mean if we can't hope that someone wins a match, how are we supposed to dislike it when the other guy wins cheaply?
I agree. The heel has to look weaker than the face.
The best example of this is the Shawn Michaels - Undertaker feud in 1997.
Michaels and Taker fought many times at consecutive PPVs.
Undertaker would always look as if he's about to win, but then something happens - DX or Kane - to let Michaels win.
That's how 99.9% of heel-face rivalries should be. The heel must look weaker even when he wins.
(The .1% exception are monster heels like Brock Lesnar)
The best example of this is the Shawn Michaels - Undertaker feud in 1997.
Michaels and Taker fought many times at consecutive PPVs.
Undertaker would always look as if he's about to win, but then something happens - DX or Kane - to let Michaels win.
That's how 99.9% of heel-face rivalries should be. The heel must look weaker even when he wins.
(The .1% exception are monster heels like Brock Lesnar)
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OP so what you're saying is that if this was 2003 and he was a heel, Brock Lesnar should have to cheat to win to beat someone like Spike Dudley? I don't think so. Like other's have said it all depends on the situation, if it's a monster heel like Undertaker, Kane, Big Show or a bad ass heel like Austin, HHH or Orton they should be booked as a threat who could beat anyone without having to resort to cheating.
Now a cowardly heel like Miz or Santino when he was a heel shouldn't beat a top heel cleanly but that doesn't mean that no heel should be able to do it.
Now a cowardly heel like Miz or Santino when he was a heel shouldn't beat a top heel cleanly but that doesn't mean that no heel should be able to do it.
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