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Discussion Starter #1
One thing I've never agreed with when it comes to pro wrestling is that the chemistry for a great match absolutely having to be face vs heel.

I never liked how heels have to automatically be buddies because they're "bad guys" and vice versa with the faces.

Look at reality for comparison...

You have guys in prison for armed robbery, murder etc. who thinks a pedophile is evil.

You have a seemingly good father who cheats on his wife.

A gang member who goes to church on Sundays and gang bangs Mon thru Saturday.

A US war vet who fought for our country who now has PTSD and beats his girlfriend.

The point I'm trying to make is that most people are not 100% heel or 100% face.

It's not black or white, but more like a combination of lighter and darker grey.

The WWE roster should and does reflect that.

I say this because of the MexAmerica angle.

I see people saying, "I'm confused. I'm supposed to boo Del Rio for wanting to unite America with Mexico and cheer a racist like Swagger?"

You're not supposed to do anything other than what you want. What you believe in.

Some people see what Del Rio is doing as a destruction of nationalism and a step towards globalizatiion.

Others see Del Rio as breaking the barrier between races and uniting people. The "real" We The People.

Where do you stand? That is the question for this storyline.

These are characters living out their "philosophies" and you can choose to pick a side or take a bathroom break if you don't understand.

This is just one example.

But, I believe if this is going to be the reality era, then fresh white meat baby faces should be limited as well as evil satanic spawns.
 

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Heels vs faces are always gonna be crucial.
its one of the most important parts of the industry.
With the demise of Kayfabe and rise of "sports entertainment" the concept of heels and faces became blurred and, in fact, irrelevant.

This isn't your father's or grandfather's wrestling that you are watching today. It's a typical TV soap opera using wrestling as a backdrop. Heels and faces were an intrical part of the game when Kayfabe ruled and people believed (or effectively suspended disbelief). In today's product heels and faces are as much an anachronism as is the misuse of the word "Kayfabe" to describe modern day pro-wrestling.

- Mike
 
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Not if pro wrestling wants to reflect reality.
if you want reality then pro wrestling is not the right place for you.
was it real a 50 years old man beating someone half his age? beating a guy younger, faster and stronger? do you think guys like The Rock, Taker, Ultimate warrior, Hogan or even Cena are just regular guys you can see all the time in the streets?
 

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With the demise of Kayfabe and rise of "sports entertainment" the concept of heels and faces became blurred and, in fact, irrelevant.

This isn't your father's or grandfather's wrestling that you are watching today. It's a typical TV soap opera using wrestling as a backdrop. Heels and faces were an intrical part of the game when Kayfabe ruled and people believed (or effectively suspended disbelief). In today's product heels and faces are as much an anachronism as is the misuse of the word "Kayfabe" to describe modern day pro-wrestling.

- Mike
Typical TV soap operas and typical TV dramas in general still have heroes and villains.
 

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With the demise of Kayfabe and rise of "sports entertainment" the concept of heels and faces became blurred and, in fact, irrelevant.

This isn't your father's or grandfather's wrestling that you are watching today. It's a typical TV soap opera using wrestling as a backdrop. Heels and faces were an intrical part of the game when Kayfabe ruled and people believed (or effectively suspended disbelief). In today's product heels and faces are as much an anachronism as is the misuse of the word "Kayfabe" to describe modern day pro-wrestling.

- Mike
if thats the case then Owens is irrelevant as everyone keeps saying he is the best heel in years. or even Bryan, Bryan defined the concept of Babyface and guess what he became the most successful stars of the decade.
 

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It's not the be all, end all...but it hasn't been for decades. As far back as WrestleMania 6 I can name a big main event face-vs-face, I'm sure those who have knowledge dating further back can mention more matches from even before then (1990)
 

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It's not the be all, end all...but it hasn't been for decades. As far back as WrestleMania 6 I can name a big main event face-vs-face, I'm sure those who have knowledge dating further back can mention more matches from even before then (1990)
Just because there have been big time face vs face matches doesn't mean face vs heel isn't important. Can you have the rare clash of the titans face vs. face match like Hogan vs Warrior? Sure and it worked for Rock vs Austin at X7 and even way back in 1972 when they ran Bruno Sammartino vs. Pedro Morales at Shea Stadium.

But it's really rare that you're able to create that kind of a match. That has to just kind of happen organically when you have two giant babyfaces at the same time, you can't really just book your way into that match by design like you can a big face vs heel match.
 

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Weren't the Road Warriors one the earlier cases of when a company was forced to change a wrestler from heel to face because the fans demanded it? I'm sure there are earlier incidents but that's the earliest one I can think of. Those days are simply gone. It's still a part of the product, but it's no longer a requirement when booking matches that it be face vs heel as it once was amd never will be again.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
if you want reality then pro wrestling is not the right place for you.
was it real a 50 years old man beating someone half his age? beating a guy younger, faster and stronger? do you think guys like The Rock, Taker, Ultimate warrior, Hogan or even Cena are just regular guys you can see all the time in the streets?
I'm not the one who coined the phrase "the reality era".

I'm not the one using reality tv to push talent.

I'm not the one making it mandatory for WWE talent to have social media accounts like twitter, instagram, facebook etc. to make them appear more "real".

It's clearly the direction they want to go in.

And what I suggested in my OP is a part of it.
 

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I've been saying that heel vs face notion is so outdated, it is completely passe.

I mean they should have thrown the heel vs face gimmick after Hulk completely abused that system into the ground. And definitely should have been abandoned (like Hulk was), after Stone Cold the anti-hero becomes greatest selling wrestler of all time who everyone loves, even freaking 15 years later.

The Rock and Stone Cold, both bad mouthed mean SOB's, who are still the most over wrestlers of all time, and they are selling us "Zigglers", and fake american heros in Cena.......oh yeah and Usos, and giving great wrestlers like Los Matadores PG rated gimmicks.

It is fucking asinine.
 

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With the demise of Kayfabe and rise of "sports entertainment" the concept of heels and faces became blurred and, in fact, irrelevant.

This isn't your father's or grandfather's wrestling that you are watching today. It's a typical TV soap opera using wrestling as a backdrop. Heels and faces were an intrical part of the game when Kayfabe ruled and people believed (or effectively suspended disbelief). In today's product heels and faces are as much an anachronism as is the misuse of the word "Kayfabe" to describe modern day pro-wrestling.

- Mike
Common misconception

But let me explain something simple.

A good story remains a good story whether you know it's real or not.

Wwe can't tell a good story.
 

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I kinda of wish kafabe would come back and the wrestler would have to be still in character on social media (like how Kevin Owens still acts like his character on Twitter)
 

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Common misconception

But let me explain something simple.

A good story remains a good story whether you know it's real or not.

Wwe can't tell a good story.
The difference between Kayfabe and the sports entertainment of today goes alot deeper than whether a story is good or not. I've gone over this in other threads, but just to briefly reiterate - Kayfabe was a cultural phenomenon that embraced the wrestling world and its fans as well as outsiders.

Today's wrestling shows are simply TV shows with a script. The fans know it is all fake and watch them like they would watch any other show on the tube. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but it is not the all encompassing Kayfabe from back in the day. It's a totally different game today with a different mentality. And, in my opinion, despite all the high tech embellishments it can't compare to the the way wrestling was when Kayfabe ruled.

- Mike
 
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