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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was reading through a column on another wrestling site late last night after watching the Arsenal/Barcelona game at a bar with my brother and some friends and this column made some very interesting points in regards to The Rock returning and the potential match up with John Cena born from the promo that The Rock cut on Raw. What we now have potentially is the most popular wrestler from 2000 through to 2004 against the most popular wrestler from 2005 through to present day which is a HUGE match up and a HUGE draw.

One major thing stood out for me from this column and that was the question asked about whether the fact that John Cena has never really had a true alternative to himself as main man or a true rival and for that reason ratings and PPV buyrates have gone backwards, i always had high hopes of Randy Orton being able to fill that gap but that is now something that will never happen. Back in their era The Rock had Stone Cold Steve Austin and also Triple H and between them they dominated their era and produced HUGE ratings whether it was Austin/Rock, Austin/HHH or Rock/HHH but John Cena has never had anyone like that who can really draw ratings like he could and he has been desperate for someone like that which now may have come along in the shape of The Rock.

Outside of his original feud with Triple H and to an extent his feud with Edge we have never once seen John Cena have someone who was believable in being his equal and the person who would be his long term multi year rival which would boost ratings like The Rock always had in his generation. We have seen so many people come in to a feud with John Cena and as good as some were they were never going to be any more than the latest feud for John Cena rather than someone who would be able to go on and off with John Cena like Triple H and Stone Cold Steve Austin did with The Rock.

Now though The Rock has come in and now we are seeing someone who is not only the equal of John Cena but someone who is actually bigger and now we are seeing potentially the biggest drawing feud and match if it were to happen since Rock/Hogan in 2002 and this isn't just down to the return of The Rock but also because of John Cena as well. John Cena has pretty much carried the company on his own since WrestleMania 22 and has been the go to guy without any equal or alternative, WWE were refunding tickets not so long ago on event's that John Cena wasn't appearing at which just goes to show exactly how big he is and just how important he is to WWE.

If and i say IF we were to see John Cena and The Rock begin a feud at WrestleMania 27 which would then go on to culiminate at WrestleMania 28 a year later it would do without question the best ratings for around a decade and would do the biggest buyrate at whatever PPV they were on for around the same time because both men are major draw's which is something that hasn't happenend since Austin/Rock at WrestleMania 19 or Rock/Hogan a year before. What we usually see is for one major draw and someone who is a great heel with John Cena working with heel's like CM Punk, Wade Barrett, Edge and Chris Jericho to name a few who whilst great heel's are never and have never been major draw's.

All that has to be seen is the buzz around the wrestling world and the internet in WWE potentially producing a feud between John Cena and The Rock to see what can happen when two major draw's get a chance to work with each other, everytime Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock ever worked together the world went crazy as they did when The Rock worked with Hulk Hogan. Now that John Cena has someone around like The Rock everyone's attitude has changed and they are genuinely excited by what may come next, whilst watching John Cena in there with people like CM Punk, Wade Barrett, Chris Jericho and all of the great heel's he has feuded with over the last few years has been great we have never seen John Cena in there with a superstar like The Rock which may be a reason why ratings and buyrates have gone backwards as no one has ever been built up to be John Cena's equal.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

first, let me just say i always enjoy intelligent threads so thank you! as far as mega wrestling star power, no. cena has never had an equal...other than HHH. edge...it's close...but i dont think he's a mega star. you can argue HHH isn't a mega star either, but he's been on saturday night live with the rock etc...so people have heard of him. the average person who hears the name edge thinks of U2 i would assume. anyway, randy orton could have been that huge heel that say, piper was back years ago..but the fans turned him face(much like they did to austin)...but now so many people can't stand randy orton(i just don't get that at all but whatever).

not only has cena never had an equal, but this just shows how much the wwe lacks these days. they lack that star power. HHH has been gone for almost a year and he is arguably their 3rd or 4th biggest star..same with taker...he's gone so much he's still a top 5 guy. part of that is writing, part of it is booking and part of it is on the wrestlers themselves. as many people have stated before, everyone seems the same. no one really stands out. no one separates themselves. they all look the same, talk the same, act the same etc. no one seems to want to take that extra step to say hey i'm _______ and you will remember me forever!

forget the fact that cena doesn't have an equal, there's a bigger problem in the wwe than that. everyone is the same and no one even tries to be an equal to cena.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

They had Batista untill his star started to fade fast in 2008.
They have a load of guys a tier below Cena in Taker, Edge, Rey, Orton, although half of them are injured all the time.

Bringing Rock back short term would automatically mean a lot better ratings, buys, money etc. And can EASILY be Cena's equal on screen but if anything with Rock being as big of a star as he is, would he be a level above, then goes Cena, then the rest, so Cena won't have an equal he'll have someone above him.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

They had Batista untill his star started to fade fast in 2008.
They have a load of guys a tier below Cena in Taker, Edge, Rey, Orton, although half of them are injured all the time.

Bringing Rock back short term would automatically mean a lot better ratings, buys, money etc. And can EASILY be Cena's equal on screen but if anything with Rock being as big of a star as he is, would he be a level above, then goes Cena, then the rest, so Cena won't have an equal he'll have someone above him.
Of course that is a very good point but then wasn't Hulk Hogan a level above The Rock back in 2002 but they had simply built it up as "wrestling past against wrestling future" and they were seen as being on the same level so it could easily be done. As i said in a previous thread in my opinion i believe that John Cena is more important to his era than The Rock was to his because The Rock's era would still have had Stone Cold Steve Austin as the standout star but also had The Undertaker, Triple H, Mick Foley, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho and Kane around as well whereas this current era would have really struggled without John Cena as the main man and biggest draw.

Also yes Batista was also around but as soon as he came back from his injury in 2006 his star had already began to fade and John Cena was becoming bigger and bigger to the point where the best example of a comparison between the two would be Hulk Hogan and The Ultimate Warrior. For a while in 1990 we had seen The Ultimate Warrior be on the same level as Hulk Hogan but that was only for a while which is the same as Batista and John Cena as in 2005 for a while Batista was on the same level but it didn't last long.

In my opinion WWE missed their one and only HUGE opportunity at putting Batista back on the kind of level in 2007 when they should have pushed a Cena/Batista match at WrestleMania 23 rather than Cena/Michaels and Undertaker/Batista but as soon as they had missed that boat Batista was very firmly the number two guy at best and in reality more of a second tier guy alongside Triple H, The Undertaker and Shawn Michaels with John Cena having a whole tier to himself. Now though with The Rock being back there is an opportunity to push Cena/Rock as THE defining feud of this generation and help bridge the gap to the next era as well which is needed, one thing that WWE have to do though is allow John Cena to cut loose in his comeback to The Rock's promo.

If i was Vince McMahon i would allow John Cena to cut loose without any restrictions and use what The Rock said against him in an attempt to push the feud and a match through, John Cena could say that The Rock has said he is never going away again so make the match happen and show the fan's how much you really love them by giving them what they want. John Cena could say that it has taken seven years for The Rock to return and in that time he was the man carrying the company and making the fan's happy whilst he refused to make an appearance for fear of losing credibility in Hollywood so now it is time to put up or shut up, sign up for the match everyone wants or be branded a liar and a hypocrite for just saying what people wanted to hear.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

Of course that is a very good point but then wasn't Hulk Hogan a level above The Rock back in 2002 but they had simply built it up as "wrestling past against wrestling future" and they were seen as being on the same level so it could easily be done. As i said in a previous thread in my opinion i believe that John Cena is more important to his era than The Rock was to his because The Rock's era would still have had Stone Cold Steve Austin as the standout star but also had The Undertaker, Triple H, Mick Foley, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho and Kane around as well whereas this current era would have really struggled without John Cena as the main man and biggest draw.

Also yes Batista was also around but as soon as he came back from his injury in 2006 his star had already began to fade and John Cena was becoming bigger and bigger to the point where the best example of a comparison between the two would be Hulk Hogan and The Ultimate Warrior. For a while in 1990 we had seen The Ultimate Warrior be on the same level as Hulk Hogan but that was only for a while which is the same as Batista and John Cena as in 2005 for a while Batista was on the same level but it didn't last long.

In my opinion WWE missed their one and only HUGE opportunity at putting Batista back on the kind of level in 2007 when they should have pushed a Cena/Batista match at WrestleMania 23 rather than Cena/Michaels and Undertaker/Batista but as soon as they had missed that boat Batista was very firmly the number two guy at best and in reality more of a second tier guy alongside Triple H, The Undertaker and Shawn Michaels with John Cena having a whole tier to himself. Now though with The Rock being back there is an opportunity to push Cena/Rock as THE defining feud of this generation and help bridge the gap to the next era as well which is needed, one thing that WWE have to do though is allow John Cena to cut loose in his comeback to The Rock's promo.

If i was Vince McMahon i would allow John Cena to cut loose without any restrictions and use what The Rock said against him in an attempt to push the feud and a match through, John Cena could say that The Rock has said he is never going away again so make the match happen and show the fan's how much you really love them by giving them what they want. John Cena could say that it has taken seven years for The Rock to return and in that time he was the man carrying the company and making the fan's happy whilst he refused to make an appearance for fear of losing credibility in Hollywood so now it is time to put up or shut up, sign up for the match everyone wants or be branded a liar and a hypocrite for just saying what people wanted to hear.
No at the first 2 bolded. Rock was already an icon in 2002 equal to or greater than Hogan, that's why the match was so anticipated. And w/o Rock, WWE could be WCW for all we know. Rock was the biggest draw of all time if you factor in buyrates, ratings, the videogame series based off of him and the show based off of him. Cena can only sell merchandise.

And Warrior probably could have surpassed Hogan but was held back by his firing and Vince being a asshole.

Anyways to answer the topic, no I don't think so. Cena has had rivalries with HHH, Batista, and Orton, and even Edge that were good enough to draw. The WWE itself and the superstars just don't draw as much due to lack of talent and stars.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

Cena doesn't have an equal because the WWE isn't pushing anybody but Cena. Think about it in this PG era the only reason Cena is the top draw is simply because his gimmick is made for the kids and the kids are the majority of the fans. Orton can't be the face of the company in this era he just can't. His gimmick isn't made for it. It's the WWE's own fault. They've dugged themselves into a hole.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

I just dont really see how you can consider the undertaker orton edge HHH and so on a teir below Cena. The only thing cena has on them is selling more childrens shirts. You cant compare the rock to cena though. The rock is a megastar and is loved by almost everyone. Cena is just the most marketable superstar wwe has right now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

No at the first 2 bolded. Rock was already an icon in 2002 equal to or greater than Hogan, that's why the match was so anticipated. And w/o Rock, WWE could be WCW for all we know. Rock was the biggest draw of all time if you factor in buyrates, ratings, the videogame series based off of him and the show based off of him. Cena can only sell merchandise.

And Warrior probably could have surpassed Hogan but was held back by his firing and Vince being a asshole.

Anyways to answer the topic, no I don't think so. Cena has had rivalries with HHH, Batista, and Orton, and even Edge that were good enough to draw. The WWE itself and the superstars just don't draw as much due to lack of talent and stars.
By 2002 when The Rock and Hulk Hogan were starting their feud The Rock had been a major star and draw for two and a half years whereas Hulk Hogan had been a major star and the biggest draw of all time for nearly twenty years so The Rock was not and will never be on the same level as Hulk Hogan. I have never been a Hulk Hogan fan but i will never deny the fact that he is the single biggest star to have ever wrestled and the single biggest draw of all time, The Rock was never even the biggest star of his era let alone of all time but because he has now made his comeback everyone is making out he is more than what he really is and whilst he is certainly one of the three biggest stars of all time he is still behind Stone Cold Steve Austin and Hulk Hogan.

Also yes John Cena did have feuds with Triple H, Batista, Shawn Michaels, Edge and Randy Orton but not one of them are to John Cena what Stone Cold Steve Austin was to The Rock or what Hulk Hogan was to Andre The Giant which was a true rival as the top star in the company and a major draw. Yes those feuds for John Cena were good enough to draw but were not good enough to draw HUGE because none of them were as big in name value as John Cena was and still is whereas The Rock who is actually a bigger name is the kind of feud that i am asking about because it will be a feud with two HUGE draw involved rather than just one.

Cena doesn't have an equal because the WWE isn't pushing anybody but Cena. Think about it in this PG era the only reason Cena is the top draw is simply because his gimmick is made for the kids and the kids are the majority of the fans. Orton can't be the face of the company in this era he just can't. His gimmick isn't made for it. It's the WWE's own fault. They've dugged themselves into a hole.
WWE have pushed plenty of other new people since 2005 like Batista, Edge, Randy Orton and Jeff Hardy whilst in 2007 The Undertaker was booked like a god and Triple H was booked the same in 2008 whilst John Cena spent more time losing that winning in 2008 when Triple H was on top. The fact is that no one else's push worked as well as John Cena's did and that was back in 2005, look at Randy Orton last year as an example because after being pushed over everyone John Cena included he ran out of steam by the time he was involved in the feud with John Cena and The Nexus to the point where people considered Randy Orton a third wheel when in reality he simply couldn't make people care about him more than John Cena did.

I just dont really see how you can consider the undertaker orton edge HHH and so on a teir below Cena. The only thing cena has on them is selling more childrens shirts. You cant compare the rock to cena though. The rock is a megastar and is loved by almost everyone. Cena is just the most marketable superstar wwe has right now.
The reason for why i put The Undertaker and Triple H on the tier below John Cena is because they are now admittedly past their best and no longer command the kind of drawing power that they may have once had whilst John Cena is still at the peak of his power's and makes more money than anyone else regardless of whether it is through merchandise sales or not but he does. John Cena is the single biggest star in the industry today and that is the opinion of other wrestler's from TNA as well as WWE and i think because of how the product is now people underestimate how big John Cena really is.

The question i am asking though is not is John Cena bigger than The Rock but whether the fact that John Cena has never had another major draw to work with like The Rock had with Stone Cold Steve Austin is a reason for why ratings and buyrates are going backwards because judging by the impact The Rock's return and talking about John Cena thus bringing up the possibility of Cena/Rock happening has had on the ratings and people's interest in wrestling it is a valid question. If Brock Lesnar had stayed he could have been a major draw and Cena/Lesnar could have been this era's Austin/Rock but it never happened and because of that John Cena has stood alone at the top of WWE.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

Yes I agree, I just think WWE spent too much time only building one mega star up which is John Cena.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

Well if anything didn't The Rock become a mega star without building him up?

- Aug-Nov 1998 he had an insane surge of popularity when WWE probably only thought of him as an upper-mid card tweener/heel.
- 1999 When he became as over as Austin he was fueding with Billy Gunn and British Bulldog.

I don't think WWE really intended for Rock to become Austin's equal if you look back, when Austin got hurt then they really built Rock and tried to build HHH, even though Rock, before Austin was out was one of the most over superstars of all time.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

He had equals. Batista and DX were pretty much as big as him between 2005 - 2007. So was Undertaker. Throughout 2007, it was WWE's own fault for booking him to steamroll everyone while not focusing keeping other stars credibility up. Triple H's absence, Batista's lacklustre booking, and Undertaker's injury combined with Cena's 13 month reign is what allowed Cena to cement himself undisputably at the top. Business began to decline then in 2008 in terms of buyrates and attendance. It's continued since then.

But you're missing the bigger picture anyway. Ratings and buyrates were doing perfectly fine between 2005 - 2007. They increased thanks to a new generation of stars combined with veteran talent finally having someone to work with. How long did you see Austin/Rock at the top? You don't go 6 years and keep on increasing. At best, you get a 3/4 year window to perform your best before it's going to die down and you will need to have new stars.

Cena had his chance. That was his best. His peak. For three years, WWE pulled off a variety of big feuds, fresh match-ups and PPV shows. It's got nothing to do with not having an equal. Stop trying to analyse something which isn't there. Cena is only on one show. This is far cry from the Rock/Austin days with one roster. The mistake was WWE not keeping to the cycle process and creating new supporting characters for Cena and Batista by the time 2008 rolled around. Instead, they began to run the same old crap into the ground from then on (focusing on Triple H/Undertaker/Edge/Orton while relegating Cena/Batista into the background respectively).

The only thing they missed out with Cena and Batista was not having them feud by the time 2007 came around.

That's because they wanted to maximise revenue so they put their second biggest star on Smackdown - Batista. If anything, the only thing they could change is bringing Batista back to Raw in 2007 as a World Champion and starting a Cena/Batista feud leading into Wrestlemania 24. Their big mistake with Batista was not recovering his credibility when having him lose at Wrestlemania 23. While Cena continued to steamroll, Batista was drawing with Undertaker then losing to Edge. That's what hurt his credibility and equalness to Cena. It made him drop in fans eyes.

If anything, they should have simply ended the streak at Wrestlemania 23. Turned Batista heel, and ran with a Cena/Batista feud over the next year culminating at Wrestlemania 24. Undertaker could have easily still had huge match-ups without the streak against Edge and Shawn and Cena in the future. The streak was manufactured so much, they ended up screwing themselves over with it.

This era looks so weird simply because of that latter part. They went from focusing on the new stars (Batista/Cena) to the old stars by the time 2008 rolled around (Triple H/Undertaker). It was a silly mistake.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

I don't think anyone has TRULY ever had to the chance to equal Cena. Every time it looks like Orton is going to WWE pull the rug out from underneath his feet for whatever reason. Every time Orton has been booked correctly the crowd have gone ape-shit for him and he has provided us with some compelling moments. Then Orton gets stale because creative give him fuck all to do. He needs to be given proper programs where he's at the centre of everything, just like Cena is always at the centre of everything he does. Orton was really overlooked by WWE this past year after his initial mega build-up throughout the summer. He was put in a feud with Sheamus who was still very green at the time and Orton's role seemed more to teach Sheamus than anything. Then after that he was thrown into the Nexus/Cena picture where he was a complete afterthought. DON'T try and tell me it was his own fault he flopped in that feud. It was solely the creative's fault. The put HARDLY ANY focus on Orton whilst he was there. He was merely a luxury. I mean on one show after he'd become WWE Champion he literally on for a maximum of 30-40 seconds at the end of the show. What type of fucking treatment is that to give to your WWE Champion? Orton was fucked and should never have been put in the Nexus/Cena mix.

Then after all that he was put with The Miz in Miz's first feud as WWE Champion. Again it was more about Orton teaching Miz about how to main event. It was more about Orton helping Miz's career. The focus was never truly on Orton. If WWE gave Orton more of Cena's treatment, just like they did during the Orton/McMahon feud, then Orton would be a lot closer to Cena than he is now.

Never mind Orton, no one has gotten the same treatment Cena has over the past years. The only person that came close to that sort of treatment was Batista and it can be said he came pretty damn close to Cena.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

Its an intelligent question you asked.

But I am not sure that you wanted to say that the buy rates are down because there isnt any other big FACE, other than Cena.

Or

You just want to prove that Cena is not that big as Rock cause Cena did'nt have anyone like Austin in his era.

First of all i am not even comfortable by the fact that Cena is a big star (when compared to Austin/Rock). Before you make any opinions about me, i wanted to say that I aint Cena hater, but it is the Truth. Well, lets not even care abt Cena vs Rock or Austin.

My question to you is, why do you think Cena is successful, and Orton is not. I mean you said you had high hopes with Orton, but he cannot do it.

Coming back to Ratings. Do you know when was the last time (may not be accurate, but close)when rating was touching 4. It was during Orton and HHH feud. And that complete Orton focussed storyline. You may say, it was because of HHH, but it could be because of the fact that people thought that HHH is kinna f*%^ed by Orton.

Now lets come to latest face era of Orton. No storyline is about him. Hardly any time given to him. But still you have so many people cheering for him. Please go to the RAW thread of 02 14 (when Rock came back), and people commented that Orton got more Pop than Cena. Also, there are threads about Cena or Orton. Well, my point is people can feel that Orton is very popular too, if not as popular as Cena.

I tune in to see Orton on Raw, but I aint stupid that I will buy a PPV, where the Feud is about Cena and Nexus, and Orton is just thrown in the Feud. Or for Orton/Miz feud, when from day 1 you know this Feud is about making Miz a Main Eventer.

WWE needs to give Orton the same respect as they gave it to Cena or to Rock (in a big way). From your ID i can see that u r 29 yrs old. So you must have seen the complete Era of the Rock. Tell me if Rock was a big fan fav when he was in Nation of Domination. I agree people liked him, but he was pushed in a proper way. For god sake, a PPV was named after Rock's name (Rock Bottom), when he was a heel. They initially publicized Smackdown as Rock's show when he started to get popular. Same with Cena, they had n number of fuck'in story lines abt Cena in last 7 yrs.

Orton had storylines focussed on him when he was a heel, and he maybe one of the best heels WWE have produced. And since he went FACE, not a single storyline has been about Orton. Thing is he is still popular.

The thing is till WWE doesent make you feel that he is a top star, you wont ever feel he will be.

The best part is people say that Orton dropped the ball during the Cena - Nexus feud. I am not sure he did. He gets more pops now than the pops he used to get before the feud. The thing is he is getting popular but at a slower pace than people would have liked. And its simple maths, if WWE focuses on him more, sooner he will cross CENA. That doesent mean that he is better than Cena, its just that Cena is done, till he does something different with his style. Orton just started as a Face, and as much as he had the potential to be the top heel, he has a potential to be the TOP Face
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

I don't think anyone has TRULY ever had to the chance to equal Cena. Every time it looks like Orton is going to WWE pull the rug out from underneath his feet for whatever reason. Every time Orton has been booked correctly the crowd have gone ape-shit for him and he has provided us with some compelling moments. Then Orton gets stale because creative give him fuck all to do. He needs to be given proper programs where he's at the centre of everything, just like Cena is always at the centre of everything he does. Orton was really overlooked by WWE this past year after his initial mega build-up throughout the summer. He was put in a feud with Sheamus who was still very green at the time and Orton's role seemed more to teach Sheamus than anything. Then after that he was thrown into the Nexus/Cena picture where he was a complete afterthought. DON'T try and tell me it was his own fault he flopped in that feud. It was solely the creative's fault. The put HARDLY ANY focus on Orton whilst he was there. He was merely a luxury. I mean on one show after he'd become WWE Champion he literally on for a maximum of 30-40 seconds at the end of the show. What type of fucking treatment is that to give to your WWE Champion? Orton was fucked and should never have been put in the Nexus/Cena mix.

Then after all that he was put with The Miz in Miz's first feud as WWE Champion. Again it was more about Orton teaching Miz about how to main event. It was more about Orton helping Miz's career. The focus was never truly on Orton. If WWE gave Orton more of Cena's treatment, just like they did during the Orton/McMahon feud, then Orton would be a lot closer to Cena than he is now.

Never mind Orton, no one has gotten the same treatment Cena has over the past years. The only person that came close to that sort of treatment was Batista and it can be said he came pretty damn close to Cena.
This. Orton had potential to overtake Cena this past year but it seemed like the WWE was afraid to have anyone be bigger than Cena seeing as how Cena is the posterboy for the PG era. If anything Orton's feud with Wade Barrett was only used to make Cena get bigger than he already was which sucks because Orton was left to be the third wheel even though he was the champion.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

It's about being predictable. Everyone knows Cena is gonna win in the end. That's all I gotta say on something like this. And threadstarter is off base with the whole "Cena has carried things on his own"..no he hasn't...Jericho was the meat of what's been going on since 2008 in general. Eddie and Rey were definitely getting ratings and carrying Smackdown..that's why Eddie had bigger reactions at Royal Rumble 05 and WM 21 than Cena. Cena doesn't impact buyrates. He doesn't raise people's games. So it's off tangent and wild assertion to claim one who makes things worse actually is making things better. Cena wins alot. He's pushed as the best that they've got and fans have turned away from the product and resented that for over 5 years now.

Of course that is a very good point but then wasn't Hulk Hogan a level above The Rock back in 2002 but they had simply built it up as "wrestling past against wrestling future" and they were seen as being on the same level so it could easily be done. As i said in a previous thread in my opinion i believe that John Cena is more important to his era than The Rock was to his because The Rock's era would still have had Stone Cold Steve Austin as the standout star but also had The Undertaker, Triple H, Mick Foley, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho and Kane around as well whereas this current era would have really struggled without John Cena as the main man and biggest draw.
Hulk Hogan wasn't above the Rock. The Rock is why fans got behind Hogan like they did...the Rock was the icon and biggest star of the era and JUST because he's who he is, Hogan got a ridiculous amount of affection in heel loving Toronto..they still marked out like little girls when he did the finish of course but that's just another city exposing themselves. That match with the Rock, after Hogan was MIA since the Russo disaster, put him back on the map while the Rock went on to make millions of dollars and dropped #1 movies on a yearly basis at that point.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

Just to point out a couple of things ITT;

1. Batista's fading star has already been discussed, but what separated Batista prior to his 2006 injury and the return was how human he looked upon returning. This was the guy that destroyed Triple H and JBL, overcame Eddie Guerrero and pretty much monopolized SmackDown and when he came back, he was jobbing to King Booker. This put a huge dent in his cred against the Deadman at WrestleMania. I'm not saying that he should have ended the streak at Mania, but he should've defeated Booker the first time around and then go through the SD roster of Lashley, Finlay, Kennedy, Mysterio or w/e, lost to Undertaker at WrestleMania and then go back on a rampage. The feud b/w Batista and Cena was done really well in 2010, but Batista has suffered too many setbacks by that time that his mas cred was no longer the same.

2. The only time Randy Orton had a chance to even approach John Cena's star was during the buildup to WrestleMania 25. They messed up big time with the match b/w him and Triple H. Even if it's a psychopath heel that they're building, if he's built up as unstoppable as Orton was in 2009, the crowd would've gotten behind him eventually. They already did and every time, instead of running with it, they made Orton much more vulnerable, which did result in the awesome Voldemort-lite heel but was a poor drawing decision imo.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

I always thought it was Cena-Batista, and it was for the first few years but then Batista fell a notch below and never caught up again.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

Cena doesn't have an equal because the WWE isn't pushing anybody but Cena. Think about it in this PG era the only reason Cena is the top draw is simply because his gimmick is made for the kids and the kids are the majority of the fans. Orton can't be the face of the company in this era he just can't. His gimmick isn't made for it. It's the WWE's own fault. They've dugged themselves into a hole.
WWE posts on their site that 75.5% of their audience is 18 or older so...

WWE just needs talent. Ziggler, ADR, Barret, Zeke, Swagger, Kofi, Punk, Morrison, DiBiase, and Miz. Those are the guys WWE needs to focus on. THEY are the future. Sure ADR, Punk, and Zeke are in their 30s, but who cares? If you build them the right way they can go well into their 40s. With the exception of Punk, none of these guys have really established themselves.

The main problem is PG. Why is Austin, Rocky, HHH, and others so over and loved by millions? Because they were involved in memorable storylines. Storylines that stood out. Would Stone Cold become the same man he is today had his career started in today's WWE? Hell no. We would never have heard of Austin after a few months. It was the beer drinking, bird flipping, fuck you I'll do whatever the hell I want Austin that got him over. Sure the guys he worked with were great; Rocky, Vince, Michaels, Taker, etc. but that doesn't take away from the fact that those kinds of storylines got him over.

All the stars of today are being hampered by boring, vanilla characters. Morrison in '06 as Johnny Nitro was brilliant. Morrison today, while I mark for him, is just boring. I think you guys get my point. No one sticks out because they're just the same old cartoon character coming down the ramp. The way WWE uses PG hampers these young mens' potential. Plus the Divas can't wrestle right? Throw them in a kiddie pool filled with mud with bikinis on. Like Dawn Marie/Torrie Wilson in that Thanksgiving Smackdown match. At least they'll be fun to watch.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

This. Orton had potential to overtake Cena this past year but it seemed like the WWE was afraid to have anyone be bigger than Cena seeing as how Cena is the posterboy for the PG era. If anything Orton's feud with Wade Barrett was only used to make Cena get bigger than he already was which sucks because Orton was left to be the third wheel even though he was the champion.
WWE were not too scared to push someone over John Cena at all because when you look back over the years you see that Triple H was the main man on Raw in 2008 and Randy Orton was in 2010 and Randy Orton was the main focus on Raw until he became involved in Cena/Nexus when he couldn't make people care about him as much as John Cena and Wade Barrett could do for themselves. People can say that Randy Orton became a third wheel but when it came to forcing your personality and character on to a feud Randy Orton couldn't do it too the same level as John Cena or even Wade Barrett could which is why people remember Cena/Nexus.

Just to point out a couple of things ITT;

1. Batista's fading star has already been discussed, but what separated Batista prior to his 2006 injury and the return was how human he looked upon returning. This was the guy that destroyed Triple H and JBL, overcame Eddie Guerrero and pretty much monopolized SmackDown and when he came back, he was jobbing to King Booker. This put a huge dent in his cred against the Deadman at WrestleMania. I'm not saying that he should have ended the streak at Mania, but he should've defeated Booker the first time around and then go through the SD roster of Lashley, Finlay, Kennedy, Mysterio or w/e, lost to Undertaker at WrestleMania and then go back on a rampage. The feud b/w Batista and Cena was done really well in 2010, but Batista has suffered too many setbacks by that time that his mas cred was no longer the same.

2. The only time Randy Orton had a chance to even approach John Cena's star was during the buildup to WrestleMania 25. They messed up big time with the match b/w him and Triple H. Even if it's a psychopath heel that they're building, if he's built up as unstoppable as Orton was in 2009, the crowd would've gotten behind him eventually. They already did and every time, instead of running with it, they made Orton much more vulnerable, which did result in the awesome Voldemort-lite heel but was a poor drawing decision imo.
Well you say that about Batista but after John Cena made arguably the most shocking return in years at The Royal Rumble in 2008 we then saw John Cena lose to Randy Orton, Triple H, JBL and Batista over the course of a few months so it isn't as if WWE booked John Cena like a god non stop since 2005. If WWE had pushed Cena/Batista for WrestleMania 23 they would have had a much bigger buyrate and ratings would have been much better but leaving it until WrestleMania 26 was too long in coming because by then Batista was not the star or draw that he once was.

As for Randy Orton he had a chance in late 2008 through to WrestleMania 25 when he was the hottest star in the wrestling world and had he as originally rumoured faced John Cena at WrestleMania 25 rather than Triple H i think Randy Orton would have gone over and a win over John Cena would have done wonders for Randy Orton. Obviously WWE booked it all wrong as despite being a great feud going into WrestleMania 25 the match itself was horrible and the feud and all of Randy Orton's momentum ended at the conclusion of that match.

We saw Randy Orton have another chance last year though and it looked like WWE were really about to push Randy Orton as that true alternative to John Cena as the main man in WWE but as we always see with Randy Orton he lose's his momentum after a few months and once thrown into the feud between John Cena and the Wade Barrett led Nexus he lost his way. Randy Orton is still getting good pop's and a lot of tv time in a top feud but everything about Randy Orton has died down since last year and it is that lack of ability in staying over and keeping momentum on a regular basis that hold's Randy Orton back as well as the fact that he just can not do what John Cena can do.
 

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Re: Have ratings and buyrates gone backwards because John Cena has never had an equal

As for Randy Orton he had a chance in late 2008 through to WrestleMania 25 when he was the hottest star in the wrestling world and had he as originally rumoured faced John Cena at WrestleMania 25 rather than Triple H i think Randy Orton would have gone over and a win over John Cena would have done wonders for Randy Orton. Obviously WWE booked it all wrong as despite being a great feud going into WrestleMania 25 the match itself was horrible and the feud and all of Randy Orton's momentum ended at the conclusion of that match.

We saw Randy Orton have another chance last year though and it looked like WWE were really about to push Randy Orton as that true alternative to John Cena as the main man in WWE but as we always see with Randy Orton he lose's his momentum after a few months and once thrown into the feud between John Cena and the Wade Barrett led Nexus he lost his way. Randy Orton is still getting good pop's and a lot of tv time in a top feud but everything about Randy Orton has died down since last year and it is that lack of ability in staying over and keeping momentum on a regular basis that hold's Randy Orton back as well as the fact that he just can not do what John Cena can do.
I don't understand what you're trying to get at. You're almost contradicting yourself. You say Orton was the hottest thing during the Road to WrestleMania 25 but in the end it was poor booking that fucked up which is true. Then you go on to speak about Orton's momentum last summer which completely died down when he got involved with Cena and Nexus but you fail to mention poor booking this time. It was due to poor booking why Orton couldn't keep the ball rolling, there is no doubt in my mind. Like I've said, there was actually a week where after he won the belt he wasn't on the show AT ALL until the last 30 seconds of it and that was merely for him to confront Barrett without doing anything. Now tell me. What the hell is Orton supposed to do with material like that? How in the hell is he supposed to stay relevant and maintain his momentum? There is possible way he could do it on his own merit. There is no possible way Cena could deal with just being given 30 seconds at the end of RAW and stay as over. Cena's never been treated like that. Cena has always had the luxury of being booked pretty much perfectly and always being THE man. THE centre of attention. Orton's only ever had that once and that was during McMahon feud and we all know how he tore up shit there.

You have mentioned how Cena supposedly wasn't booked strongly on his return in '08. Of COURSE he was booked strongly. He barely lost cleanly when he came back and even when he did he was still made to look very, very credible. He was still booked correctly and carefully. He was still the centre of attention. The focus was still all on him and as a result of that he maintained his momentum. And like I've said over and over again now, Orton has never had that on a consistent basis.
 
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