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Discussion Starter #1
As in jobbing to a new act in a really decisive way.

The WWE sometimes reminds me of late 90's WCW,by having an upper echeleon who only job to each other.
 

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STOCKING STUFFER
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Carlito beat Cena once. Pretty sure it was clean too, or at least made Carlito look pretty good. Sorry but in wrestling you can't have your top guys losing 'decisively' to up and coming stars, when does that EVER happen? Look at Sheamus, beat Cena by 'fluke' at first but in reality it got him over, because now he's credible enough to beat Cena clean if they want to go that route. Hate to shit on your thread like that but what you're asking for doesn't happen. orton, as a matter of fact, was never winning clean even as champ until he became a face.
 

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They shouldn't be jobbing to new acts. Doesn't do anything for anyone.

Cena put over Edge (they helped each other in that feud).

Orton was put over by Cena in 2007 and he certainly wasn't near Cena's name value at the time. That feud basically helped build Orton more than doing anything for Cena.

Cena also put over Carlito, three times (back in 04 and then during his main event run in 06 and 08).

Cena also made Lashley look really good (that counts somewhat).

And Miz also piggybacked off his name value for a little while before Cena squashed him (but it did get Miz some exposure and recognition).

Cena also put over Sheamus.

This year, Cena put over Wade and Nexus .

That's about it for Cena.

For Orton? I can't really remember anything aside from Kofi. But in all fairness, it's not like Orton was in a position to put over anyone before 2009 anyway. WWE was attempting to get Orton over between 2005 - 2008.
 

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Imo, putting over new guys only works if they are a surefire success at the early stage such as Lesnar who just reeked of stardom even when starting out of the blue, only very few people can make that look credible and thus making it work. From the current roster, it may only work with ADR by a slimey win since he has alot of star presence and the ability to use it well enough for it to be a reasonable push.

The normal, and in 98% better working method is to put over someone bit by bit, wrestler loses decisively (lower- average midcarder), wrestler loses slightly (midcarder-upper micarder), wrestler gets a dq win (upper midcarder/lower maineventer) and eventually that wrestler one day gets clean wins over the maineventers (top guy).
 

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Sorry but in wrestling you can't have your top guys losing 'decisively' to up and coming stars,
Exactly, that is the role of the more veteran stars. Cena/Orton are high profile but they are the present.

If you make your top guys look like shit then everybody looks like shit and that is a fact of life. It makes Cena/Orton look crap because they lost to somebody below them and it makes everybody else look crap for not being Champion when the Champ can't cut it.

Guys like Taker, HHH, Mysterio etc should be the ones putting people over because they have had time as "the top dogs" in the past. They have been "the present".

Though in fairness, nobody else could have put over Nexus like Cena has. It's worked this well because it's Cena, anybody else and it just wouldn't have clicked.
 

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'Putting over' and 'going over' are not the same things. When you're a star on the level of Cena and Orton, someone doesn't need to pin you cleanly to get the rub, they just need to look good. That could be through holding their own in a match, cutting some good promos on them, or even just teaming with them (look at Bourne with Cena).
 

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I wonder what Aeris felt...When she was up on that
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Cena put Umaga over pretty well in their match at Royal Rumble, too bad WWE couldn't follow it up with anything.
 

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Sorry but in wrestling you can't have your top guys losing 'decisively' to up and coming stars, when does that EVER happen?


Hulk HAD been WWE Champion just two months before, but you're right. For the most part, the top guys are the top guys for a reason, and you can't have them getting beaten decisively.
 

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Randy just needs more time maybe 3 Years before he can put People over and still look strong. Cena can't lose much cause he is the Face of the Company he did put over Edge, Sheamus and Barrett.
 
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The Winds of Change
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Exactly, that is the role of the more veteran stars. Cena/Orton are high profile but they are the present.

If you make your top guys look like shit then everybody looks like shit and that is a fact of life. It makes Cena/Orton look crap because they lost to somebody below them and it makes everybody else look crap for not being Champion when the Champ can't cut it.

Guys like Taker, HHH, Mysterio etc should be the ones putting people over because they have had time as "the top dogs" in the past. They have been "the present".

Though in fairness, nobody else could have put over Nexus like Cena has. It's worked this well because it's Cena, anybody else and it just wouldn't have clicked.
Very well put. Cena has been putting over Nexus and Barrett in particular in a huge way and that he can not be knocked for. Orton really hasn't had the oportunity to put over "new up and comers" because let's face it, he has been in feuds with top level talent for the last 3 years. He has had some wins over those top level guys, but one has to remember that HE was the one that was getting put over in that time and trying to be built as a bigger and bigger heel. He was continuously feuding with guys like Cena, Triple H and Batista - already well established babyfaces. Orton's face turn this year has not really allowed him to put over up and comers just yet, because well, he has been on a roll of his own gaining more and more momentum as the strongest person on the roster. Orton did however just drop the belt to Miz, and I believe that he will end up putting Miz over again. Orton is very close to the level where he will be able to put over younger talent. WWE just needs to completely cement him as one of the 2 top babyfaces for moving forward.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yeah,I understand what all of you are saying...perhaps I worded it wrong as NoGimmicksNeeded says with "putting over" and "going over".It's true that Sheamus,Miz,Edge etc progressed through their association with Cena and Orton.

I also understand that doing the job too much can be detrimental to the major star.But that rare decisive victory for an act over a genuine star can firmly establish a wrestler as "it".

  • Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant jobbed to Ultimate Warrior.
  • Roddy Piper and Ric Flair jobbed to Bret Hart.
  • Bret Hart jobbed to Shawn Michaels who eventually jobbed to Steve Austin.
  • Triple H made Batista,submitted to Chris Benoit and was pinned by Jeff Hardy.
 

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The one that immediately comes to mind with Orton is him losing clean to Swagger at Extreme Rules.
 

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Just because Orton put Swagger over "clean" (clean meaning within the rules of the match) doesn't mean "clean" is completely legitimate. Swagger reversed an RKO and Orton's spine slammed into a chair. That's like Sheamus pushing Cena off the top rope through a table, it means nothing. There's no credibility boost in that, because it's a fluke win. It's protective booking of a main eventer to the fullest extent.

However, I'm not trying to shit on Orton and call him out for not putting people over in this instance, because frankly, Swagger is the one guy I wish he did bury. I would give him nothing but props for such an act.
 

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Carlito beat Cena once. Pretty sure it was clean too, or at least made Carlito look pretty good. Sorry but in wrestling you can't have your top guys losing 'decisively' to up and coming stars, when does that EVER happen? Look at Sheamus, beat Cena by 'fluke' at first but in reality it got him over, because now he's credible enough to beat Cena clean if they want to go that route. Hate to shit on your thread like that but what you're asking for doesn't happen. orton, as a matter of fact, was never winning clean even as champ until he became a face.
They shouldn't be jobbing to new acts. Doesn't do anything for anyone.

Cena put over Edge (they helped each other in that feud).

Orton was put over by Cena in 2007 and he certainly wasn't near Cena's name value at the time. That feud basically helped build Orton more than doing anything for Cena.

Cena also put over Carlito, three times (back in 04 and then during his main event run in 06 and 08).

Cena also made Lashley look really good (that counts somewhat).

And Miz also piggybacked off his name value for a little while before Cena squashed him (but it did get Miz some exposure and recognition).

Cena also put over Sheamus.

This year, Cena put over Wade and Nexus .

That's about it for Cena.

For Orton? I can't really remember anything aside from Kofi. But in all fairness, it's not like Orton was in a position to put over anyone before 2009 anyway. WWE was attempting to get Orton over between 2005 - 2008.
That attitude right there is so wrong. The new act would benefit so much from going over a top star and you know it. His booking just has to be consistent. And the Top star won't be too hurt by it. Plus it's happened plenty, Rock and Austin jobbed to Angle and HHH, Taker superjobbed to Austin, Hogan and Andre jobbed to Warrior, Taker, Cena, and every ME jobbed to Khali during his initial run. ANd the newcomer always benefited. I wish they would do it more, but just on guaranteed future ME.
 
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