Has to be Said (Rey Mysterio)
There's only one guy on weekly WWE television who consistently makes his opponents look even better than John Cena typically makes his opponents look and that is far and away Rey Mysterio. (Daniel Bryan would naturally be right there with them if he were featured as heavily and ceaselessly. One day...) His match with Wade Barrett on Smackdown this week was easily Barrett's best all-around match since his bout with Cena at Hell in a Cell over four months ago. I was watching the latest Smackdown and as I view the visuals of the Mysterio-Barrett match, it hit me so hard why Mysterio is such an important element to the show on a weekly basis, in just one facet of WWE's product. Quite simply, the guy makes WWE's squad of villainous big men look even more villainous and even bigger than they are, and it works. I know this board blasts Rey all the time these days, the backlash from his "Eddie push" or whatever you wish to call it still haunts, and there's those who think that he somehow buries loads of guys, but to me it's the opposite in almost all cases. That's right. Ziggler wasn't buried by Mysterio, it was the first feud he had that made him look legit in the ring and made people sit up and notice him (sure, the Great Khali thing was nice for getting him ever so slightly over as an arrogant heel who wouldn't back down, but the Mysterio feud was the turning point in his progression between the ropes). CM Punk wasn't really buried by Mysterio, either; unfortunately, their feud was poorly booked once they got beyond Wrestlemania, if anyone remembers, and as WWE has shown us again and again (still holding out hope for the Corre, which actually has potential as a stable on Smackdown these days), they just don't know how to book stables, so the SES looked weak against Rey (and then Big Show), but it's not Mysterio's fault that the writers are chronically incompetent.
No, Mysterio's bumping and Mysterio getting his ass kicked, and Mysterio countering big man moves in midair is the bread and butter for today's primary audience that WWE is reaching out towards. A friend of mine teaches part-time at a Bay Area, CA grade school and on Saturday the school had a basketball game. He noted that almost every kid on the team was talking about Wade Barrett/Rey Mysterio and how Rey took it to Barrett but "Barrett's just so big and bad and nasty."
Point is, we can make fun of the current product, and we can say that we don't like Mysterio's part but the fact is he plays an extremely important part these days, probably as important as anybody who isn't John Cena himself. The guy could almost carry a Lexmark printer to a *** television match in about six minutes.
And on this week's Smackdown, the audience appreciated just how menacing a figure Wade Barrett is in a visceral way (beyond conconcted storylines, which definitely serve their own purpose when well-executed) since the salad days of the original Nexus/Cena angle over on Raw. The fact that Justin Gabriel distracted Mysterio does nothing to take away from Barrett's victory. Barrett, Gabriel and The Corre as an entity are mercenary heels out for their own collective (and individual) agenda(s), and fit the template of heels not cheating because they necessarily have to, but because they want to, and because they want a sure thing every time they can possibly get it.
And a quick point to the obvious counter point that losing to such a small guy hurts the other guy's credibility. This may be reverse psychology, but look at it from a purely kayfabe perspective. The only way such a small guy's victories over much larger opponents can even vaguely look optically credible from an instinctual perspective is to make the smaller man seemingly invulnerable against the "average" opponent. In other words, you have to pour a lot of credibility to Mysterio first, before anyone can look "good," because otherwise logic dictates that it doesn't mean much for the bigger man to beat the little guy since he's a little guy anyway and if the little guy wins, it doesn't make sense--in other words, if a man as small as Mysterio is to be as heavily featured as he is in the main event mix, tangling with large, imposing figures such as McIntyre, Barrett, Kane, Undertaker, et. al., you have to make it a clear point to your viewing audience that he belongs there and then some. And like it or not, through his own push WWE has succeeded in doing just that with its audience, and by succeeding, they have allowed others to conversely look good by defeating him (think of how hot Alberto Del Rio became by the close of his debut night when he made Rey weakly tap out to his submission).
In closing, Rey Mysterio receives a ton of hate here, lots of almost apparent apathy, and, yes, a kind of taking for granted by many. But he's still one of the best guys out there, banged up, broken-down, heavier, less agile than he once was... Yet he's still able to be instrumental in mapping out and executing a terrific match from bell to bell, constructing wonderful storytelling with his opponent almost every time out when given some time in which to do so, and, from a brass tacks meat and potatoes viewpoint, incongruously making his opponents (such as Barrett this week) look like the proverbial million bucks.
If you're watching through the jaded, seen-it-all, "Well, this is how the match is supposed to go, because Guy A benefits more if Scenario E unfolds, but Guy B has to look strong regardless," outlook, well, sure, we can see the strings, but even then I think we should be able to appreciate Mysterio's work and talents. If you're one of those first, second or third grade kids sitting on the bench in a school gym half an hour before the game starts, though, what Rey Mysterio does for WWE is nearly invaluable and has to be appreciated, and, at least, respected.
No, Mysterio's bumping and Mysterio getting his ass kicked, and Mysterio countering big man moves in midair is the bread and butter for today's primary audience that WWE is reaching out towards. A friend of mine teaches part-time at a Bay Area, CA grade school and on Saturday the school had a basketball game. He noted that almost every kid on the team was talking about Wade Barrett/Rey Mysterio and how Rey took it to Barrett but "Barrett's just so big and bad and nasty."
Point is, we can make fun of the current product, and we can say that we don't like Mysterio's part but the fact is he plays an extremely important part these days, probably as important as anybody who isn't John Cena himself. The guy could almost carry a Lexmark printer to a *** television match in about six minutes.
And on this week's Smackdown, the audience appreciated just how menacing a figure Wade Barrett is in a visceral way (beyond conconcted storylines, which definitely serve their own purpose when well-executed) since the salad days of the original Nexus/Cena angle over on Raw. The fact that Justin Gabriel distracted Mysterio does nothing to take away from Barrett's victory. Barrett, Gabriel and The Corre as an entity are mercenary heels out for their own collective (and individual) agenda(s), and fit the template of heels not cheating because they necessarily have to, but because they want to, and because they want a sure thing every time they can possibly get it.
And a quick point to the obvious counter point that losing to such a small guy hurts the other guy's credibility. This may be reverse psychology, but look at it from a purely kayfabe perspective. The only way such a small guy's victories over much larger opponents can even vaguely look optically credible from an instinctual perspective is to make the smaller man seemingly invulnerable against the "average" opponent. In other words, you have to pour a lot of credibility to Mysterio first, before anyone can look "good," because otherwise logic dictates that it doesn't mean much for the bigger man to beat the little guy since he's a little guy anyway and if the little guy wins, it doesn't make sense--in other words, if a man as small as Mysterio is to be as heavily featured as he is in the main event mix, tangling with large, imposing figures such as McIntyre, Barrett, Kane, Undertaker, et. al., you have to make it a clear point to your viewing audience that he belongs there and then some. And like it or not, through his own push WWE has succeeded in doing just that with its audience, and by succeeding, they have allowed others to conversely look good by defeating him (think of how hot Alberto Del Rio became by the close of his debut night when he made Rey weakly tap out to his submission).
In closing, Rey Mysterio receives a ton of hate here, lots of almost apparent apathy, and, yes, a kind of taking for granted by many. But he's still one of the best guys out there, banged up, broken-down, heavier, less agile than he once was... Yet he's still able to be instrumental in mapping out and executing a terrific match from bell to bell, constructing wonderful storytelling with his opponent almost every time out when given some time in which to do so, and, from a brass tacks meat and potatoes viewpoint, incongruously making his opponents (such as Barrett this week) look like the proverbial million bucks.
If you're watching through the jaded, seen-it-all, "Well, this is how the match is supposed to go, because Guy A benefits more if Scenario E unfolds, but Guy B has to look strong regardless," outlook, well, sure, we can see the strings, but even then I think we should be able to appreciate Mysterio's work and talents. If you're one of those first, second or third grade kids sitting on the bench in a school gym half an hour before the game starts, though, what Rey Mysterio does for WWE is nearly invaluable and has to be appreciated, and, at least, respected.
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You know that if you are 5 ft 6 winning almost every match you are in (and if he loses, the opponent has to cheat heavily) does NOT make your opponent look good, do you?
Yes, he gives good matches because he's that good, but that doesn't put his opponent over.
Yes, he gives good matches because he's that good, but that doesn't put his opponent over.
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The "Ultimate Underdog" hyperbole is out of hand, but it has some tangential basis in reality due to his size. Sure, it's one of the classic cases of WWE having its cake and eating it, too, but it's a formula that is working very well for its kid fan base. The fact that Rey almost always wins (he's a top face tasked with selling truckloads of merchandise, let's not forget) doesn't make it any more ridiculous than being told that Hulk Hogan is an underdog to a fat guy in his mid-40s named Sgt. Slaughter or any one of a billion other pro wrestling fallacies.
I think Mysterio's a couple inches shorter than the 5'6" they bill him at. But that's not the point. It's over-literalizing pro wrestling, which at its core is supposed to be about the mythologization and romancization of competition, combat and fighting. Especially in today's WWE, where there are absolutely no weight class differentialities. Guys as disparate as Big Show, Sheamus, Cena, Miz and Mysterio are and can be seen as main-eventers, with everything in-between.
Putting opponents over has many different meanings, beyond actually laying down for the three count or tapping out. For a most obvious, useful and immediately apt example, Rey Mysterio defeated Dolph Ziggler twice in a row on PPV a year and a half ago, but those matches put Ziggler over as a serious threat and competitor.
Those who insist Mysterio is burying opponents willy-nilly seem to be disregarding the facts that the Ziggler feud was killed off by Rey being suspended, and then dropping the championship to John Morrison (whether or not Mysterio refused to drop the championship to Ziggler, which as of this day remains merely dirtsheet speculation, that's how the rivalry over the IC Championship concluded anti-climactically), the Punk feud was poorly booked from the minute they wrapped up their Wrestlemania match onward, not to mention it was Punk's brainchild to feud with Mysterio and have his head shaved by Mysterio in the first place, and the thing which "buried" Jack Swagger was not his losing to Mysterio (a trick, Eddie-esque shoe stunt to prevail at the MITB PPV after being tortured in the anklelock on Smackdown followed up by a couple of TV victories) but rather the unceremonious way in which WWE hurriedly wrapped up the promising Swagger/Rey feud to transition all of Smackdown's brainpower and resources behind Kane's push (vs. Mysterio at the time) while depushing Swagger right back into the obscurity he had to call home pre-Wrestlemania.
I think Mysterio's a couple inches shorter than the 5'6" they bill him at. But that's not the point. It's over-literalizing pro wrestling, which at its core is supposed to be about the mythologization and romancization of competition, combat and fighting. Especially in today's WWE, where there are absolutely no weight class differentialities. Guys as disparate as Big Show, Sheamus, Cena, Miz and Mysterio are and can be seen as main-eventers, with everything in-between.
Putting opponents over has many different meanings, beyond actually laying down for the three count or tapping out. For a most obvious, useful and immediately apt example, Rey Mysterio defeated Dolph Ziggler twice in a row on PPV a year and a half ago, but those matches put Ziggler over as a serious threat and competitor.
Those who insist Mysterio is burying opponents willy-nilly seem to be disregarding the facts that the Ziggler feud was killed off by Rey being suspended, and then dropping the championship to John Morrison (whether or not Mysterio refused to drop the championship to Ziggler, which as of this day remains merely dirtsheet speculation, that's how the rivalry over the IC Championship concluded anti-climactically), the Punk feud was poorly booked from the minute they wrapped up their Wrestlemania match onward, not to mention it was Punk's brainchild to feud with Mysterio and have his head shaved by Mysterio in the first place, and the thing which "buried" Jack Swagger was not his losing to Mysterio (a trick, Eddie-esque shoe stunt to prevail at the MITB PPV after being tortured in the anklelock on Smackdown followed up by a couple of TV victories) but rather the unceremonious way in which WWE hurriedly wrapped up the promising Swagger/Rey feud to transition all of Smackdown's brainpower and resources behind Kane's push (vs. Mysterio at the time) while depushing Swagger right back into the obscurity he had to call home pre-Wrestlemania.
I get what u r saying, but I disagree with quite a bit of it.
Well, Rey is a good worker and probably gets a lot of hate. Truthfully, no one really knows what goes on back stage, so much like Cena, his character takes most the blame. Note that I am speaking of Rey the character.
That being said, he beat Ziggler how many times when Ziggler was going for the title? Then, he never loses the title to him, JoMo takes it off him in one shot. Ziggler was essentially buried. People already took note of Ziggler when he was feuding with Kane and messing with Khali, I suppose people saw how good he was when he faced Mysterio, but that is more of a credit to Ziggler's ability, not a result of Rey's. Ziggler has had good matches all around with loads of ppl.
Rey DID bury the SES. 3 men and woman were unable to stop Rey from continuously beating them at every turn. Punk won 1 match but lost all the rest. Sorry, but that many ppl losing to one very small man is bad, very bad. But it is booking's fault.
U missed Rey burying Swagger, I mean a perfectly healthy Swagger lost to him whilst he was one-legged. That just makes no sense.
Facing Rey in a competitive back and forth match is bad for any bigger guy. It makes them look unable to handle a small guy. What u said is proof of that, "Rey took it to Barrett but Barrett's just so big and bad and nasty" . It works only in Rey's favor, it says Rey would have beat Barrett if he were a little bigger, not Oh this Barrett is a monster of a man. Now, what Zeke is doing to Big Show on the other hand is a perfect example of making a person look strong and scary (but Zeke and Barrett are of different archetypes). Now if it were Kane, Edge/ anyone closer to Barrett's size, then yeah ok. I'm just using Barrett as an example, really, his victory this week was pretty close to legit. He got up and kicked Rey too quickly for Rey to have actually gotten the 619. Just saying that it only help's Rey, Rey only lost because this guy was bigger.
The effect of losing to Rey is terrible to any heel of reasonable size, unless it's a fluke victory. That's really all there is to that side of the coin.
Well, I disagree with ur theory about how to make a small guy's victory over bigger guys look credible. An underdog should never look invulnerable. Rey is quicker and yeah they should play to that, but look at a whole lot of his matches lately, he appears far too dominant. Take Swagger-Rey match to qualify for the chamber, he essentially dominated Swagger, with Swagger occasionally taking charge. Rey's entire gimmick relies on his ability to look like he is at the disadvantage going in. Now, if it was Rey being resilient and kicking out of everything and eventually finding a way to win against his opponents their frustration throughs them off then ok. But, Rey legit beats them and it's usually after making them look stupid in some way. People don't look good by beating him, only the IWC make this connection really, cause the way I see it we view Rey as invincible and so anyone beating him is a big deal, but to the general audience its just a bigger guy beating a small one, nothing too impressive. ADR was hot on the internet, b/c he beat Rey, his crowd reactions are only ok not great, they tell another story.
The very fact that Rey is the Ultimate Underdog automatically nullifies the value of beating him, he's the guy that's not supposed to win. What good is beating the guy that supposed to lose?
Rey does receive a lot of hate on almost all forums, but really its just people are tired of seeing the characters they are interested in look like chumps when feuding with Rey. They all probably recognize that Rey is talented and respect that, but no one on here really cares to see him overcome the odds all the time and so dominantly.
Well, Rey is a good worker and probably gets a lot of hate. Truthfully, no one really knows what goes on back stage, so much like Cena, his character takes most the blame. Note that I am speaking of Rey the character.
That being said, he beat Ziggler how many times when Ziggler was going for the title? Then, he never loses the title to him, JoMo takes it off him in one shot. Ziggler was essentially buried. People already took note of Ziggler when he was feuding with Kane and messing with Khali, I suppose people saw how good he was when he faced Mysterio, but that is more of a credit to Ziggler's ability, not a result of Rey's. Ziggler has had good matches all around with loads of ppl.
Rey DID bury the SES. 3 men and woman were unable to stop Rey from continuously beating them at every turn. Punk won 1 match but lost all the rest. Sorry, but that many ppl losing to one very small man is bad, very bad. But it is booking's fault.
U missed Rey burying Swagger, I mean a perfectly healthy Swagger lost to him whilst he was one-legged. That just makes no sense.
Facing Rey in a competitive back and forth match is bad for any bigger guy. It makes them look unable to handle a small guy. What u said is proof of that, "Rey took it to Barrett but Barrett's just so big and bad and nasty" . It works only in Rey's favor, it says Rey would have beat Barrett if he were a little bigger, not Oh this Barrett is a monster of a man. Now, what Zeke is doing to Big Show on the other hand is a perfect example of making a person look strong and scary (but Zeke and Barrett are of different archetypes). Now if it were Kane, Edge/ anyone closer to Barrett's size, then yeah ok. I'm just using Barrett as an example, really, his victory this week was pretty close to legit. He got up and kicked Rey too quickly for Rey to have actually gotten the 619. Just saying that it only help's Rey, Rey only lost because this guy was bigger.
The effect of losing to Rey is terrible to any heel of reasonable size, unless it's a fluke victory. That's really all there is to that side of the coin.
Well, I disagree with ur theory about how to make a small guy's victory over bigger guys look credible. An underdog should never look invulnerable. Rey is quicker and yeah they should play to that, but look at a whole lot of his matches lately, he appears far too dominant. Take Swagger-Rey match to qualify for the chamber, he essentially dominated Swagger, with Swagger occasionally taking charge. Rey's entire gimmick relies on his ability to look like he is at the disadvantage going in. Now, if it was Rey being resilient and kicking out of everything and eventually finding a way to win against his opponents their frustration throughs them off then ok. But, Rey legit beats them and it's usually after making them look stupid in some way. People don't look good by beating him, only the IWC make this connection really, cause the way I see it we view Rey as invincible and so anyone beating him is a big deal, but to the general audience its just a bigger guy beating a small one, nothing too impressive. ADR was hot on the internet, b/c he beat Rey, his crowd reactions are only ok not great, they tell another story.
The very fact that Rey is the Ultimate Underdog automatically nullifies the value of beating him, he's the guy that's not supposed to win. What good is beating the guy that supposed to lose?
Rey does receive a lot of hate on almost all forums, but really its just people are tired of seeing the characters they are interested in look like chumps when feuding with Rey. They all probably recognize that Rey is talented and respect that, but no one on here really cares to see him overcome the odds all the time and so dominantly.
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I'm only going to address this part of your post because while I don't mean to ignore the rest of your comments, I feel like I've made some points on most of them above before the fact.
I think a lot of Internet fans let the "ultimate underdog" moniker get blown out of proportion. Sure, it's Michael Cole/Josh Matthews, whoever saying that Rey Mysterio is the ultimate underdog and what have you every week and it's mind-numbingly boring all by itself, but I don't think calling someone the "ultimate underdog" can necessarily be construed as suggesting that he's "supposed to lose." In fact, I would argue that the kids towards whom WWE is directing this meme understand the concept more fully than many of us do.
I attended the Bakersfield Smackdown taping six months ago where Del Rio debuted and he beat Rey Mysterio in the main event by slapping on his "cross armbreaker" as they're calling it and making Rey tap out.
The reaction of the audience was a stunned, hushed silence, with a ton of kids in utter disbelief. There were kids right behind me, speculating on how Rey would somehow win. They were probably four or five years old and they were monitoring the ebb and flow of the match, and they were commenting on sequences in this manner: "That's why Rey's size can work for him; he gains leverage and surprises the other guy" (swear to God this nerdy kid said exactly that), followed by Rey getting 'caught' by Del Rio in midair and slammed and pummeled with the other kid saying, "Yeah but that's how it works against him." Etceteras, etceteras. But they still fully expected him to win, and were shocked when he lost.
This whole "ultimate underdog"/Rey the Conqueror argument on the Internets makes it like it has to be black or white, an either/or deal. But Shawn Michaels in 1996 is proof enough against that. How does a guy Shawn's size beat guys like Diesel and Vader? Could he possibly employ certain strategies conducive to utilizing his smaller frame, quicker pacing, greater agility, etceteras?
I get it. Mysterio's tiny. A shrimp. But because of his in-ring verisimilitude, he's been able to make scores and scores (well, more like millions) of fans, young and old, small, female, what have you, think he's not out of place in the ring with bigger guys, which by its very nature means he has a shot at winning. A lot of that can be marked down to being pushed. If JTG were pushed by WWE for, say, five months, going into his match with Kane this week, and JTG had gone over Swagger and Ziggler and Cody Rhodes, and let's say he had beaten, let's say, Wade Barrett two weeks earlier and took Ezekiel Jackson to the limit before losing the following week, well, most of us might think, "He's got a reasonable shot at beating Kane," rather than yawning and wondering how soon the squash would be over. But it's not all down to a push. JTG hasn't shown the ability to make the audience suspend their disbelief to "buy" into him beating a guy like Dolph Ziggler, much less Barrett or Kane. Maybe one day he can, but as of now he's just a generally sloppy, mediocre worker in jeans and construction boots who's good for enhancement talent because he's fairly over for an undercarder and little else (at this stage, in any event).
I also don't think Mysterio looks "invulnerable"; throughout the course of most average Mysterio matches, he's on the receiving end of some pretty good punishment, even if he ends up winning. You can say, well, sure, but what does that prove? Most babyfaces look vulnerable in their matches. Well, it's neither here nor there, just a point that Mysterio isn't steamrolling over guys in his matches. In his Superstars match with Tyson Kidd the week before Wrestlemania (another one I was in attendance for, now that I think about it), he let Kidd, who at the time was just one half of The Hart Dynasty, a heel tag team not even in the title picture at that time (until a couple weeks later as faces), put on probably Kidd's best all-around match in WWE thus far with him. Cody Rhodes has been defeated by Mysterio a few times but has always looked good to the point of losing nothing in the loss. And in the last six months, Mysterio has "literally" put over Kane, Del Rio (both by losing to him and then by being "taken out" by him, and finally losing the formal feud-closer around New Year's), The Miz twice in the same week back in mid-December and Barrett. Most of his victories have been over guys like Cody Rhodes and one over Drew McIntyre, prominent midcarders but who aren't quite ready to go over Mysterio in any case, and against Del Rio as part of their seemingly endless feud for those five months or so.
Finally, it seems to me for all of the talk that having Mysterio around hurts the credibility of heels, it does so more for a relative minority of fans on the Internet who obsess over how much credibility their favorite heels have, than for the fans who turn up for WWE live events in droves. You go to a Smackdown event in the summer of 2010, let's say, and it's usually not sold out, and the brand has suffered from lower gates but there are always a very large number of kids in their Mysterio masks and he's often the most purely over man on the brand at many events for the blue brand. If anything, it seems like the reality is closer to being that the post-Batista, post-full-time Undertaker Smackdown brand rests on Mysterio's back rather than he being a detriment of some kind for it.
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You raise many good points. Rey is definitely very good at making others look credible in the ring, is still a great wrestler, and the guy is one of the WWE's biggest stars.
The only thing about him that really bothered me was his feud against Punk and the SES. Mass berrial right there. But thats more to do with booking than Rey
The only thing about him that really bothered me was his feud against Punk and the SES. Mass berrial right there. But thats more to do with booking than Rey
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Well, I hated how the Punk feud turned out, too. I'm not sure why, exactly, but post-Wrestlemania, the feud had almost no heat going for it (save for the Extreme Rules match/finish, and Over the Limit match/finish--the TV stuff was dead), was very paint-by-the-numbers and nobody seemed to really be into it, not even Punk or Rey. The booking was awful, no question. The premise by itself remains a good one, and you could see Punk's motivation. The matches were all good. But it never had that serialized storytelling going for it, the meat of it felt rote, it was WWE Does Home Alone with a group of incompetent bad guys being outmaneuvered by a masked Macaulay Culkin.
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The reason Rey gets criticism is because he is stagnant. His never-evolving character, repetitive ring work. Of course, he's not the only guy like this, but he's the only Main Eventer like this. Every other main eventer has at least evolved and developed their character over time.
I like his ring work. His style is flashy enough to sometimes impress even if I have seen him do the same thing for a decade. And he does all the little things well.
The lack of change in his character is reminding me a lot of X-Pac. I used to like X-Pac, till one day he just bored me to death because he never changed no matter what happened. I'm getting close to feeling that way about Rey. But I'll never say he can't go in the ring.
I like his ring work. His style is flashy enough to sometimes impress even if I have seen him do the same thing for a decade. And he does all the little things well.
The lack of change in his character is reminding me a lot of X-Pac. I used to like X-Pac, till one day he just bored me to death because he never changed no matter what happened. I'm getting close to feeling that way about Rey. But I'll never say he can't go in the ring.
Well, once again u r making ur argument on suspending belief based what u hear children saying, children want to see their hero win, yes they were shocked that Rey lost, but Rey always overcomes the odds, they were disappointed in Rey losing more than in awe of ADR's skill and this disappointment was not channeled into hate for ADR. From the perspective of a teenager/adult, having trouble with a smaller man plain looks bad, now I know we all know that it is not real by this age, but really, how are we supposed to look at this guy seriously after that, suspend belief enough to believe that this man can take on someone who just took out 4 ppl by himself a week ago (no one specific, just stating that most faces can do that these days).
I feel u are underselling the significance of being constantly reminded that Rey is the ultimate underdog, they always say it and then make some comment about how small Rey is and how is at a disadvantage and what not. I mean, it comes off that u r assuming that the kids believe its real, so they'll just rationalize it by saying Rey is small so it wasn't fair. U cannot ask the audience to ignore what the WWE wants to say about the Rey character and if the kid knows its not real then s/he notices this stuff and really doesn't care and is just happy their favorite is winning. As someone mentioned, Rey loses very rarely and most the time its some sort of heel tactic overkill, and that's too much. Yes, ADR beat him clean once, but what happened the other times they faced off, yeah ADR won the feud, but Rey was beating the hell out of his boy and ADR just booked out.
HBK isn't that small a guy and I am pretty sure those were one sided matches with rays of hope here and there, until some sort of lucky break fell into his lap, and I am pretty sure the reaction to the end was OMG HBK won, not I was expecting HBK to win. I'm sure HBK was not booked as the favorite to win going into the match and in the end it did nothing for the big guy and was about the little guy.
The problem with ur ppl think he can hang with the bigger guys theory is that ppl really don't. Rey can't really beat the main event guys, he has trouble dispatching Kane and Kane jobs to uppermidcard and above most of the time (I will give u that Kane recently beat Taker, but that was not Taker at 100% and Kane needed Bearer). Imagine Rey vs Cena/Orton/Edge/HHH/Taker/Batista, no one would think that Rey could win. Rey really only ever beats the younger guys these days and rarely ever faces off against the rest of the main event and when he does he loses. Take him facing Batista, he lost in the main feud matches. He beat Batista in a cage match by running away to qualify for a championship match (sneaky and clever, as it should be), he lost to Taker clean but looked good. He does not beat main eventers, just uppermidcard and below. So no, when it comes to the big boys he's out of place. A guy having to cheat as much as is usually required to beat Rey these days really doesn't do much, it only begs the question how much will this guy cheat to beat the others.
U say Rey isn't booked as invulnerable, well, yeah he's not completely decimating his opponents, but look at how much they have to do to make him lose even then he rarely loses. (Does not apply to Barrett's or ADR's victories so much). I have seen Rey fend off 3 ppl by himself and made them run away, there is a limit to which one can suspend belief.
Mysterio did not put Kane over, for the most part him beating Kane so many times coupled with the ridiculousness that Kane endured after losing his match, pretty much put Kane where is today. Not the dominant monster he was, now a glorified jobber. Kane was always been over, he's pretty much a tweener in a league of his own (in the sense that he is the only tweener that stays exactly the same and is booed or cheered based entirely on who he is facing). As for ADR, he put him over in one match and that's pretty much it, their blow of match ended to sketchily for it to be considered being put over.
I don't think that anyone is saying that having Rey around hurts the credibility of the other talents, but the level to which he is protected when facing anyone else hurts them. Now, u can say it only matters to the IWC, but then u turn around and point out that the audience did not believe ADR could win, that applies to everyone else. Now, even if they win by some heel tactic, no one buys that they can beat Rey legit and that hurts their credibility. Well, u can turn around and say that that means a lot to the guys who do beat Rey clean, this means a lot, but it doesn't really. Rey is a much smaller guy than the usual and the truth is, if a 14 year old kid that somehow mastered all forms of martial arts were to beat up a 25 year old man, it would still be embarrassing for him, but if he does win its nothing to brag about even if ppl know that this kid can take the larger people. Fact is perception matters, and beating a smaller guy is never a big deal, it only works the other way around. If Lesnar were to go fight the UFC fighters in the lighter weight divisions, even though they are considered some of the best pound for pound fighters around, and he wins, its nothing special. Only, the guy that beats him would be considered special, but then if another heavyweight beats this same guy it would mean little.
Rey is hated because the IWC knows this isn't real, and have deep interest in the guys that Rey makes look weak. Yeah, he makes them look weak in every feud they have with him. He wins so much that when u see that ur favorite is about to feud with him u are saddened, coz the feeling is all that momentum is about to die and die hard, same feeling with Big Show. Yeah, he's good for the company he sells masks, but I don't care about that. I want the story, and I want it to make some sort of sense in a world in which wrestling is real (kayfabe world with our world rules). The hero is too strong for the villain to beat, villain tries but fails, then tries and fails again only to try and really go all out and then fail again, all the while we are being told that hero has overcome the odds and it is supposed to be some great moment. Rather than an all powerful villain that the hero eventually beats in a hard fought battle, that would be a good moment. Which is why I feel that the IWC sides with the heels nowadays, a whole lot more. They are the real underdogs and ppl naturally love the guy that is bound to lose. That is why ppl hate Rey and Show, the hope that they could pull an upset just simply dies.
I feel u are underselling the significance of being constantly reminded that Rey is the ultimate underdog, they always say it and then make some comment about how small Rey is and how is at a disadvantage and what not. I mean, it comes off that u r assuming that the kids believe its real, so they'll just rationalize it by saying Rey is small so it wasn't fair. U cannot ask the audience to ignore what the WWE wants to say about the Rey character and if the kid knows its not real then s/he notices this stuff and really doesn't care and is just happy their favorite is winning. As someone mentioned, Rey loses very rarely and most the time its some sort of heel tactic overkill, and that's too much. Yes, ADR beat him clean once, but what happened the other times they faced off, yeah ADR won the feud, but Rey was beating the hell out of his boy and ADR just booked out.
HBK isn't that small a guy and I am pretty sure those were one sided matches with rays of hope here and there, until some sort of lucky break fell into his lap, and I am pretty sure the reaction to the end was OMG HBK won, not I was expecting HBK to win. I'm sure HBK was not booked as the favorite to win going into the match and in the end it did nothing for the big guy and was about the little guy.
The problem with ur ppl think he can hang with the bigger guys theory is that ppl really don't. Rey can't really beat the main event guys, he has trouble dispatching Kane and Kane jobs to uppermidcard and above most of the time (I will give u that Kane recently beat Taker, but that was not Taker at 100% and Kane needed Bearer). Imagine Rey vs Cena/Orton/Edge/HHH/Taker/Batista, no one would think that Rey could win. Rey really only ever beats the younger guys these days and rarely ever faces off against the rest of the main event and when he does he loses. Take him facing Batista, he lost in the main feud matches. He beat Batista in a cage match by running away to qualify for a championship match (sneaky and clever, as it should be), he lost to Taker clean but looked good. He does not beat main eventers, just uppermidcard and below. So no, when it comes to the big boys he's out of place. A guy having to cheat as much as is usually required to beat Rey these days really doesn't do much, it only begs the question how much will this guy cheat to beat the others.
U say Rey isn't booked as invulnerable, well, yeah he's not completely decimating his opponents, but look at how much they have to do to make him lose even then he rarely loses. (Does not apply to Barrett's or ADR's victories so much). I have seen Rey fend off 3 ppl by himself and made them run away, there is a limit to which one can suspend belief.
Mysterio did not put Kane over, for the most part him beating Kane so many times coupled with the ridiculousness that Kane endured after losing his match, pretty much put Kane where is today. Not the dominant monster he was, now a glorified jobber. Kane was always been over, he's pretty much a tweener in a league of his own (in the sense that he is the only tweener that stays exactly the same and is booed or cheered based entirely on who he is facing). As for ADR, he put him over in one match and that's pretty much it, their blow of match ended to sketchily for it to be considered being put over.
I don't think that anyone is saying that having Rey around hurts the credibility of the other talents, but the level to which he is protected when facing anyone else hurts them. Now, u can say it only matters to the IWC, but then u turn around and point out that the audience did not believe ADR could win, that applies to everyone else. Now, even if they win by some heel tactic, no one buys that they can beat Rey legit and that hurts their credibility. Well, u can turn around and say that that means a lot to the guys who do beat Rey clean, this means a lot, but it doesn't really. Rey is a much smaller guy than the usual and the truth is, if a 14 year old kid that somehow mastered all forms of martial arts were to beat up a 25 year old man, it would still be embarrassing for him, but if he does win its nothing to brag about even if ppl know that this kid can take the larger people. Fact is perception matters, and beating a smaller guy is never a big deal, it only works the other way around. If Lesnar were to go fight the UFC fighters in the lighter weight divisions, even though they are considered some of the best pound for pound fighters around, and he wins, its nothing special. Only, the guy that beats him would be considered special, but then if another heavyweight beats this same guy it would mean little.
Rey is hated because the IWC knows this isn't real, and have deep interest in the guys that Rey makes look weak. Yeah, he makes them look weak in every feud they have with him. He wins so much that when u see that ur favorite is about to feud with him u are saddened, coz the feeling is all that momentum is about to die and die hard, same feeling with Big Show. Yeah, he's good for the company he sells masks, but I don't care about that. I want the story, and I want it to make some sort of sense in a world in which wrestling is real (kayfabe world with our world rules). The hero is too strong for the villain to beat, villain tries but fails, then tries and fails again only to try and really go all out and then fail again, all the while we are being told that hero has overcome the odds and it is supposed to be some great moment. Rather than an all powerful villain that the hero eventually beats in a hard fought battle, that would be a good moment. Which is why I feel that the IWC sides with the heels nowadays, a whole lot more. They are the real underdogs and ppl naturally love the guy that is bound to lose. That is why ppl hate Rey and Show, the hope that they could pull an upset just simply dies.
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I'm not sure if I agree or not tbh.
Rey Mysterio puts on good matches and often does help produce his opponents best matches but I feel that unless you win against Mysterio, the guy usually look quite bad. Wins really do help guys. For example Morrison winning the IC title in such a manner made him look completely legit (however they didn't capitalise on it), so face wins against Mysterio can work very well and he can make you look like a star. Heel wins either Dirty or clean can do wonders too as a dirty win will get thhem a lot of heat, a clean win will make them look like a legit threat.
However losses are a different story imo. Losing to Mysterio, maybe not once but a few times can make someone look terrible, and it's happened in the past. Desolation Row mentioned Dolph Ziggler but said his losses were a positive. I disagree, he lost to him three times and it didn't get him anywhere. He then went into a feud with Morrison where he was completely buried. Basically he couldn't beat Mysterio, so why would he be able to be beat the guy who beat Mysterio? CM Punk is another example, he won one match in sneaky fashion but looked bad in defeat in all his losses, and they didn't do anything for him, in fact he slipped down the card and went straight into jobbing to Big Show.
So while Mysterio can be of benefit, quite often (because he does win a hell of a lot of matches) he hurts his opponents because they can't beat the 'ultimate underdog' and don't generally gain mcuh from the match. I can't really think of anyone who lost in an aamzing effort to Mysterio and got a big push after it. Whereas guys like Jeff Hardy lost a BUNCH of times to Triple H, but then ended up looking like a main eventer. Miz lost a bunch of times to Cena, but looked more like a star etc.
Rey Mysterio puts on good matches and often does help produce his opponents best matches but I feel that unless you win against Mysterio, the guy usually look quite bad. Wins really do help guys. For example Morrison winning the IC title in such a manner made him look completely legit (however they didn't capitalise on it), so face wins against Mysterio can work very well and he can make you look like a star. Heel wins either Dirty or clean can do wonders too as a dirty win will get thhem a lot of heat, a clean win will make them look like a legit threat.
However losses are a different story imo. Losing to Mysterio, maybe not once but a few times can make someone look terrible, and it's happened in the past. Desolation Row mentioned Dolph Ziggler but said his losses were a positive. I disagree, he lost to him three times and it didn't get him anywhere. He then went into a feud with Morrison where he was completely buried. Basically he couldn't beat Mysterio, so why would he be able to be beat the guy who beat Mysterio? CM Punk is another example, he won one match in sneaky fashion but looked bad in defeat in all his losses, and they didn't do anything for him, in fact he slipped down the card and went straight into jobbing to Big Show.
So while Mysterio can be of benefit, quite often (because he does win a hell of a lot of matches) he hurts his opponents because they can't beat the 'ultimate underdog' and don't generally gain mcuh from the match. I can't really think of anyone who lost in an aamzing effort to Mysterio and got a big push after it. Whereas guys like Jeff Hardy lost a BUNCH of times to Triple H, but then ended up looking like a main eventer. Miz lost a bunch of times to Cena, but looked more like a star etc.
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You're confusing the point. The booking can hurt Mysterio's opponents, but while they're in the ring with Mysterio, they look great. Swagger's main event run ended with a string of losses to Mysterio that basically sent him into a black hole of booking - but the matches made him look great. The booking made him look like a tool. Jeff Hardy was booked to perfection in his run against Triple H, always on the cusp of beating him - Swagger was booked like an idiot monkey.
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Personally I think Ziggler is the best at selling his opponents.
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I'm not sure that makes sense. It doesn't really matter how good someone looks during the match with Mysterio, if it ultimately sends them back down the card, or does nothing for them then having the match with Mysterio does nothing for them. That's the way I see it, but I think it's different when someone looks fantastic against Triple H or John Cena but ends up losing.
If the BOOKING is like that, then I feel that booking someone to 'coming that close' against someone like Mysterio does absolutely nothing when compared to 'coming that close' against another face in the company weather then look good during the match or not. There's no doubt that when in ring with Mysterio, most people look good, but as soon as he wins...you forget that and remember Mysterio winning and them losing to the 'ultimate underdog'.
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I guess the difference is, when Jeff Hardy was booked to lose against Triple H, it was WWE trying to make the crowd sympathise with him with the intention of making him a huge main eventer. When people are booked to lose against Mysterio, it's because they want Mysterio to look good.
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582 Posts
All his opponents have to do is pull a Jericho. What I mean is pull off/mess
with his mask a bit lol jk. That was the basis for Jericho's/Rey's feud. Jericho was the only person in recent memory that was booked really well against Mysterio.
They traded some losses back and forth and they booked them fantastic. Not the
mention every match was top notch. I do agree that some of his opponents are
booked terribly against him (CM Punk).I really want to see this imminent Cody
Rhodes feud in the future if they are going to fully commit to it.
with his mask a bit lol jk. That was the basis for Jericho's/Rey's feud. Jericho was the only person in recent memory that was booked really well against Mysterio.
They traded some losses back and forth and they booked them fantastic. Not the
mention every match was top notch. I do agree that some of his opponents are
booked terribly against him (CM Punk).I really want to see this imminent Cody
Rhodes feud in the future if they are going to fully commit to it.
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