Wrestling Forum banner

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This is probably a dumb question and obviously "no" answer. But im just curious anyways. Has there ever been just 1 or 2 matches in history of WWE, aew, or new japan even - where there was a actual real legit winner/loser of a match that was NOT pre-determined by vince / staff/ writers/ whoever else ?? Just the the wrestlers go out there and actually fight to see who will win for reals.

Not including someone getting injured during the match, or DQ's, etc. I would like to thank maybe that's the case in new japan matches cause sometimes those really go on for 30.. 40 minutes at a time.

Again probably obviously not, but i just wanted to know. :confused:
if there is, then anyone know of a couple examples ??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
506 Posts
"Match" or "Match result"?

As far as just sending two people out without some form of plan, that's pretty doubtful within the confines of 'wrestling'. Brawl for All would probably be the closest?

On the fly changes due to injuries etc as not particularly uncommon throughout the years, but those typically impact elements of a match, not the result itself (quick rollup to finish helps there)
In terms of winner vs loser, that element is probably the single most 'scripted' aspect -- although accidental eliminations in battle royales have probably changed results in terms of winner.... Although it's not like that would be freely admitted..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
493 Posts
There was that Tough Enough contest between Angle and Puder that was a shoot and almost ended with Angle legit tapping out. But the ref did some quick thinking and counted Puder's shoulders down.
 

·
Lifting weights and eating steaks
Joined
·
17,657 Posts
That was more Puder going off script hence Angles anger
Off script?

It was a shoot wrestling match. Pretty sure Angle broke Nowackis ribs before that too.

Puder probably wrote his own death warrant when he went into business for himself but I doubt there was a script at all. It was shoot wrestling where the rules were no strikes and Angle underestimated Puder.

Al Snow, I believe even warned WWE against it but they didn't listen. Youd think they'd have learned from the Brawl for All. You can't script a shoot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,947 Posts
A little while back Vince supposedly told the refs to do count-outs as a shoot. Meaning if the guy planned to win didn't make it back in the ring before the count-out then too bad..

How many times that's actually happened may be another thing thou..

There have been cases where the guy that was supposed to win got pissed about something and started beating up the other guy. Here normally mild mannered Koko B Ware beats the crap out of a masked jobber..

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
88 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
In pro wrestling or just wwe?

If just wwe then brawl for all was complete shoot.
Wrestling in general, these 3 i mentioned in particular (wwe, aew, new japan are the only ones i've ever cared about in my life). Not boxing or UFC cause im not into those, i've only been into wrestling since i was little.

"Brawl for All" though you guys say, hmm i'll look that up later and check it out. :)
 

·
JANUARY 5TH
Joined
·
4,034 Posts
In late 19th and early 20th century pro wrestling was like boxing. It was legit as it gets and in some cases fixed as it gets. Just like boxing. There were legit shooters. But one can argue it wasn't exactly the same thing. There have been plenty of double crosses prior the 60's too. Maybe the most influential and important was Rikidozan vs Kimura in 1954. There have been match ups that one side didn't know they were going to lose like Buddy Rogers vs Bruno Sammartino in 1963, where Bruno basically shot on him saying give up or I am going to break your back. But the promoter was in it too. It also counts as a double cross too of course. There have been accidents. There have been semi-shoots. But you can't find the exact thing you are looking for because even with Brawl 4 All, the matches weren't promoted as pro wrestling matches.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
493 Posts
In late 19th and early 20th century pro wrestling was like boxing. It was legit as it gets and in some cases fixed as it gets. Just like boxing. There were legit shooters. But one can argue it wasn't exactly the same thing. There have been plenty of double crosses prior the 60's too. Maybe the most influential and important was Rikidozan vs Kimura in 1954. There have been match ups that one side didn't know they were going to lose like Buddy Rogers vs Bruno Sammartino in 1963, where Bruno basically shot on him saying give up or I am going to break your back. But the promoter was in it too. It also counts as a double cross too of course. There have been accidents. There have been semi-shoots. But you can't find the exact thing you are looking for because even with Brawl 4 All, the matches weren't promoted as pro wrestling matches.
From what I heard that wasn't likely a shoot. Those two had a match on tv not long before Rogers dropped the title to Bruno and it was the exact same match, except the bell didn't ring. Rogers had a heart attack a little bit before that and from what I read most of his matches after that were either really short or were tag matches where he did very little wrestling.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
459 Posts
Didn't, now i want to say Billy Gunn but not sure if it was, cant remember, once ask his opponent to pin him even though he was supposed to win because he thought that would go over better with the crowd?
 

·
JANUARY 5TH
Joined
·
4,034 Posts
From what I heard that wasn't likely a shoot. Those two had a match on tv not long before Rogers dropped the title to Bruno and it was the exact same match, except the bell didn't ring. Rogers had a heart attack a little bit before that and from what I read most of his matches after that were either really short or were tag matches where he did very little wrestling.
That's the side of Rogers' story. But he was extremely protective of his image as you should expect from a top guy of his era. The match lasted 48 seconds. I've read and heard about their matches before but never a match that ended this quick. I might be missing something though. So even if we believe Rogers knew he was losing I don't think he knew how the match was going to end. That makes it a shoot regardless. The below is what Bruno said about the claim (heart attack, staying in a hospital for 5 days, etc) after their match.

When Buddy Rogers saw the attendance he wanted to get out of there, and he told the doctor he felt a funny pain on his chest. When the doctor heard that, he called Paul Sullivan who was the head of the state athletic commission. The doctor who was at every show said to Paul Sullivan, ‘I am checking Buddy Rogers’ blood pressure and I am listening to his chest and everything sounds okay, but he claims that he has a pain in his chest. I don’t know if I should allow him to go in the ring…’
When Pat Sullivan heard that, he immediately stopped Buddy Rogers from going to the ring, but he also informed all the state athletic commissions that he was revoking his license until they found out if in fact there was a problem. When Vince McMahon, Sr. and Totts Mondt heard about this, of course, they got him to come to Washington, DC, and they put him in a famous hospital over there.
Buddy Rogers was examined and re-examined, and they couldn’t find a thing wrong with him, and then after that, his license was reinstated. Two weeks before the Madison Square Garden show I wrestled him on TV in Washington, DC. That was live TV that went to New York.
Buddy Rogers was wrestling every day – and he was NOT in a hospital.
In New York, you go through an extensive physical to get your license and every night before you wrestled you had a physical in the dressing room. I had seen wrestlers stopped from going to the ring because something wasn’t right…”


from Bruno Sammartino and Buddy Rogers - The 1963 WWWF Title Screwjob

this is nice to listen
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,947 Posts
Pr-determined or not there was definitely a period when a company would not put their top belt on a guy that couldn't legit take care of himself in (or out ) of the ring if he needed to. In the modern day, obviously, Brock can take care of business.

But that era where being able to legit hold you own in a shoot being a requirement for holding the top belt, pretty much ended with Harley on the NWA side and probably Iron Shiek and maybe Backlund on the WWF / E side.. Don't get me wrong, being able to fight for real isn't going to hold anyone back in pro-wrestling. But, its no longer a requirement to be a world champ.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,610 Posts
I'm not aware of any shoot finish outside Brawl For All. There's been plenty of worked shoot finishes I'm sure.

Montreal Screwjob was in a unique category given it was predetermined but Bret wasn't told.

Audibles are relatively common though. And it seems to be like multiple endings are often deliberately setup and left open.

Re: multiple endings, at Wrestlemania 31 Roman's extended family was in attendance believing he was going to win. That was the main plan. But the crowd didn't want that finish, so Vince pulled the trigger with the Seth cash-in that he kept in his pocket as a backup plan. I'd guess that important results are left up to the crowd more often than we notice.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top