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Team Narcisse
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Discussion Starter #1
I was asking myself this and I can't think of anyone in my lifetime so I was wondering if maybe there were some from before my time.
 

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Obviously not before your time but I'd say Shane Douglas was the ECW equivalent to Flair & HHH.


Kept him a stable that would help him win, rarely lost "clean" by ECW standards and once held the World Title for 14 months.


And kind of like Flair in the 80s, Douglas' was ECW's go to guy in the mid 90s. The way they booked Douglas, you legitimately would despise him (kind of like HHH). I know I hated Douglas.




And in terms of character booking, I could also make an argument over Raven. That had a lot to do with the particular angles he was in, often pushing the envelope and seemed to lack any kind of morals. HHH "drugs" Stephanie and marry's her. ECW's equivalent was Raven "brainwashing" Sandman's wife and son to join his Nest.
 

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Team Narcisse
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Discussion Starter #3
Great example. I didn't even think of Douglas but you are spot on.
 

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No way IMHO.

I sound like a broken record but Vince missed the boat a few times in the golden era. With guys like DiBiase, Perfect and Rude Vince had the chance to build a heel on the same level with Flair as far as booking went. But no.
 

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no but i would've booked piper,macho,dibiase,perfect, or even rude stronger then Trips.....they could garner as much if not MORE heat then him....and had better looks,skills, and ESPECIALLY mic skills then Trips......
 

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Hollywood Hogan. Hogan booked himself to go over everyone by some stupid NWO crap.
 

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I sound like a broken record but Vince missed the boat a few times in the golden era. With guys like DiBiase, Perfect and Rude Vince had the chance to build a heel on the same level with Flair as far as booking went. But no.
I don't think they would have been that successful.I didn't watch back then so I maybe wrong too.But I think Flair was in a different league.

Why I am saying that is I have seen a few heels booked strongly too but they never had the aura that HHH had.HHH lost 3 Wrestlemanias in a row(twice by tapping out) but he had that 'it factor' that the others didn't have.HHH was booked like he couldn't even a match with Bubba Ray Dudley without the help of Evolution but when he went up against Shawn Michaels alone,I felt like HHH could beat Shawn Michaels.Neither Edge,Punk or Orton didn't have that feel.They are all good heels but just not as good as HHH.
 

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Team Narcisse
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Discussion Starter #8
Hollywood Hogan. Hogan booked himself to go over everyone by some stupid NWO crap.
I, of course, thought of NWO Hogan,, but longevity puts Flair and HHH as being booked a good bit stronger. I factored in the key losses to Luger, Sting, and Goldberg.
 

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Team Narcisse
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Discussion Starter #9
I don't think they would have been that successful.I didn't watch back then so I maybe wrong too.But I think Flair was in a different league.

Why I am saying that is I have seen a few heels booked strongly too but they never had the aura that HHH had.HHH lost 3 Wrestlemanias in a row(twice by tapping out) but he had that 'it factor' that the others didn't have.HHH was booked like he couldn't even a match with Bubba Ray Dudley without the help of Evolution but when he went up against Shawn Michaels alone,I felt like HHH could beat Shawn Michaels.Neither Edge,Punk or Orton didn't have that feel.They are all good heels but just not as good as HHH.
First, thank you for not turning this into an argument of who was booked stronger between HHH and Flair.

I agree with what you said about the aura of HHH. Him and Flair could both win 100 matches in a row on Horsemen or Evolution interference, but you never felt like they were weak without them. To me, Hogan was never able to accomplish this aura. He really looked weak without the NWO
 

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First, thank you for not turning this into an argument of who was booked stronger between HHH and Flair.
Don't worry.We have had that argument before and we will perhaps have it later too.Let's save that for somewhere else.BTW,it's a good question.

I agree with what you said about the aura of HHH. Him and Flair could both win 100 matches in a row on Horsemen or Evolution interference, but you never felt like they were weak without them.
I agree.Two people who were born to play heels.
 

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Team Narcisse
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Discussion Starter #11
I agree.Two people who were born to play heels.
I'm actually at the point now where I am hoping for some strong HHH heel booking. I never thought I would say those words again, but he pretty much has me sold. I love the heat he is getting from his comments about Bryan. He is doing exactly what a great heel is supposed to do. I would have no problem with him having a strong heel title run for a little while.
 

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Hollywood Hogan. Hogan booked himself to go over everyone by some stupid NWO crap.
Its weird I read this all the time on here but my memory of Hollywood Hogan in ring most of the time was just him being an absolute bitch and looking terrified of anyone he faced, begging for mercy constantly, jobbing to jay leno etc.

I know he won a lot but I dont remember him looking strong and dominant



Im not saying youre wrong or anything as I dont remember it that well but just saying thats what I remember of him.
 

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Ye, Hollywood Hogan wasn't booked strong, anyone who watched the feud with Sting would know this, Hogan played up being a big tough guy when Sting wasn't around but then went to classic bitch work when he was there, not only was it great heel work, it was also hilarious to watch.

I've heard and read that Freddie Blassie was always booked strongly as a legit heel and maybe Harley Race to? You'd have to get someone who knows more about those times to confirm that though.
 

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Hogan was actually booked too weak when he was the Hollywood character.

Being booked strong as a heel to me is when your character gets to come off as a bad ass and you win decisively over a lot of babyfaces. Triple H definitely did a lot of that for better or worse. Hollywood Hogan came off weak and like a pussy.
 

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Brock Lesnar was booked very strong in 2002,when he first made his debut.Guy decimated Hogan,defeated Rock and crushed The Undertaker within 6 months/same very year.Come next year he main-evented WM19 and defeated Kurt Angle.At Backlash he beat then company's hottest rising star John Cena.




Batista during late 2009/early 2010 was also booked quite strong(until Cena decimated him in straight three PPVs).



However,in my opinionHHH is still GOAT heel.I have never hated Flair in my life-as a person or performer or character(he's so damn charismatic wooooo),so for me he is NOT the GOAT heel.
 

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I agree that HHH is a truly amazing heel and it's refreshing to see him get praise here for his Evolution days and beyond. I remember at the time a lot of people in the IWC saw HHH as the devil because he was dating Stephanie and was getting so much TV time but fact is he did put over several guys very effectively and despite losing from time to time he always managed to come across as credible. Flair was booked strongly as a heel but he always had the "cool" factor that made a portion of the crowd cheer for him.

There are obviously guys like Kurt Angle, JBL, Taz, Undertaker and Lesnar who had a strong heel run for a while but then turned face due to the fans. Longevity is key here. All the other guys that had long undefeated streaks or something were all babyfaces obviously.
 

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Its weird I read this all the time on here but my memory of Hollywood Hogan in ring most of the time was just him being an absolute bitch and looking terrified of anyone he faced, begging for mercy constantly, jobbing to jay leno etc.

I know he won a lot but I dont remember him looking strong and dominant



Im not saying youre wrong or anything as I dont remember it that well but just saying thats what I remember of him.
Was Flair booked any stronger? I mean, he always was crazy and fearless but he spent every match getting pounded from post to post, flopping, and begging. And at the end of the day, he lost to everyone to put them over.
 

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Was Flair booked any stronger? I mean, he always was crazy and fearless but he spent every match getting pounded from post to post, flopping, and begging. And at the end of the day, he lost to everyone to put them over.
I dont know, I didnt really watch much WCW till NWO

I was actually going to ask something similar, in that recent video game promo thing they did when Flair was drunk he said he didnt know why Miz wanted to be taught the figure 4 as he never beat anyone with it - he was laughing and joking so obviously not 100% serious but it did make me think - which real big name stars did he ever beat with it?
 

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I dont know, I didnt really watch much WCW till NWO

I was actually going to ask something similar, in that recent video game promo thing they did when Flair was drunk he said he didnt know why Miz wanted to be taught the figure 4 as he never beat anyone with it - he was laughing and joking so obviously not 100% serious but it did make me think - which real big name stars did he ever beat with it?
Didn't he regain the WWF title from Savage (who had an injured knee) with the figure four?
When Flair one it was usually with his feet on the ropes for the pin.
 

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Was Flair booked any stronger? I mean, he always was crazy and fearless but he spent every match getting pounded from post to post, flopping, and begging. And at the end of the day, he lost to everyone to put them over.
You raise a good point.


One could argue that Flair's entire being centered around the Horsemen, 3 guys who's goal from day 1 was to protect the champion.


Flair was overly cocky and portrayed himself as being better than everybody else but rarely won a match in convincing fashion. It was typically the roll up/small package out of nowhere or a dirty finish.





But, you can also look at it like this: Flair, from '84 to '92, never lost the title in convincing fashion. Von Erich beat him with a small package. Dusty beat him with a small package. Garvin beat him with a sunset flip. Steamboat beat him with a small package. Sting beat him with a small package. Fujinami beat him with a small package. Savage beat him with a small package. And all of them dropped the title shortly after to Flair in a rematch, somewhat, in the same fashion.

So in that regard, it was booked as if all of those finishes came out of nowhere, with Flair's cockiness being is downfall in each case (except Fujinami). You can argue he was booked stronger that way because, when he lost, it wasn't to their respective finishers, it was because of a mishap or miscue on Flair's behalf.


But in that 8 year span, which was Flair's "mega heel run", he was booked to look strong, even in the event of a loss, because he always got the title back. Anybody he dropped the title to up until '92, he was always booked to get it back shortly after, with the loss not diminishing his stature one bit.


8 year span, 8 World Titles, all as a heel.
 
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